Is the 465 H&H as dead as your dinner?

Pheroze

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I really like the case design for this cartridge. But, unlike the 400 H&H, it seems to have faded quickly into obscurity. And, unlike the 400, there does not seem to be an appetite to make bullets for it. So, did the H&H exclusivity preoccupation doom this neat cartridge? Would be great to see this cartridge changed to 458 or 470!
 

CoElkHunter

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I really like the case design for this cartridge. But, unlike the 400 H&H, it seems to have faded quickly into obscurity. And, unlike the 400, there does not seem to be an appetite to make bullets for it. So, did the H&H exclusivity preoccupation doom this neat cartridge? Would be great to see this cartridge changed to 458 or 470!
Ignorant me, but I didn't know there was a 400 OR 465 H & H? I would like to see photos of the cartridges. I thought the H & H cartridges stopped at .375 caliber and then wondered why, except for the Nitro Express Cartridges? By the way, since I see you're in Ontario I have a cartridge question. In the late '90s, I hunted black bear in Round Lake, Ontario, with my wife's relatives from Pennsylvania. While walking the trails around a cabin, I found a spent brass rifle cartridge on the ground. It has "Imperial" and 38-55 printed on the cartridge base. I kept it as a souvenir. Later, I saw a single shot rifle hanging in the local shop in that caliber. I was told the people in the area hunt moose with that caliber. I was just curious if you know of this cartridge? It seems like an underpowered cartridge to hunt moose with? Thanks!
 
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Pheroze

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I would like to see photos of the cartridges. I thought the H & H cartridges stopped at .375 caliber and then wondered why, except for the Nitro Express Cartridges?

IMG_20171004_212946701.jpg


Two different loading for 400 H&H next to a 308 Norma Mag. The is a discussion on this site about it.

I dont have a picture of the 465 H&H. I will try and find one I can post. Both were developed by H&H in 2003. The 465 is based on the weatherby case but with a long neck at 8 degree shoulder.

38-55 printed on the cartridge base. I kept it as a souvenir. Later, I saw a single shot rifle hanging in the local shop in that caliber. I was told the people in the area hunt moose with that caliber. I was just curious if you know of this cartridge? It seems like an underpowered cartridge to hunt moose with? Thanks!

I am not familiar with this. Round Lake is quite far up there. Maybe they use what grandpa had? Beautiful area. Would love to hear about the hunt:coffee::)
 

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View attachment 282054

Two different loading for 400 H&H next to a 308 Norma Mag. The is a discussion on this site about it.

I dont have a picture of the 465 H&H. I will try and find one I can post. Both were developed by H&H in 2003. The 465 is based on the weatherby case but with a long neck at 8 degree shoulder.



I am not familiar with this. Round Lake is quite far up there. Maybe they use what grandpa had? Beautiful area. Would love to hear about the hunt:coffee::)
Awesome photos! Thank you! I really like the tapered shoulder and long cartridge neck. I didn't know they were such recently produced cartridges? Round Lake is west ( or south) of Pembroke, as we went there one evening. As far as my hunt, there's really not much to tell. Eight hunters, drought (beechnuts and acorns were scarce), no bears (one guy shot at one by a stream and missed). I never saw one, but just before dusk one evening, I was kind of hunting by myself and heard something making a lot of noise in the trees about 100 yds. from the trail I was on. Probably a bear, but my bear license was also good for wolves, and I wasn't about to go into those trees by myself at almost dark. I had seen fresh large "dog" type tracks near a stream the day before, but I never saw anyone with a dog up there. So, in my mind, real or not, a wolf was prowling around! Anyway, the next year, my wife's cousin called and their group got four bears. My lack of luck again! Thanks for your response!
 

Pheroze

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Oh, I mistaking this with Round Lake First Nations just north of Sioux Lookout. My mistake. I would be surprised if folks around Pembroke used any such cartridge on a regular basis.
 

tarbe

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I used to get about 2,100 fps with a 220gr Hornady FP in my Marlin Cowboy 38-55.

Marginal on moose perhaps, but a careful hunter who picked his shots (ie a local who had a lot of time to take his moose, relative to a foreigner who had a few days) would certainly keep himself in moose meat. Heck, the 170gr 30-30 at about the same velocity has been doing it for about 130 years!
 

tarbe

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CoElkHunter

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I used to get about 2,100 fps with a 220gr Hornady FP in my Marlin Cowboy 38-55.

Marginal on moose perhaps, but a careful hunter who picked his shots (ie a local who had a lot of time to take his moose, relative to a foreigner who had a few days) would certainly keep himself in moose meat. Heck, the 170gr 30-30 at about the same velocity has been doing it for about 130 years!
Very true! I guess the Canadians hunt from "hides" (blinds) along trails up there, so the shots ARE probably fairly close?
 

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Oh, I mistaking this with Round Lake First Nations just north of Sioux Lookout. My mistake. I would be surprised if folks around Pembroke used any such cartridge on a regular basis.
No, I found this in the Round Lake hunting area, probably 80-100 miles from Pembroke. With the older single shot rifle (kind of looked like a .45-70 trapdoor style) I saw in the store and the cartridge I found, it was probably was an older hunter's setup? I don't know? Just interesting?
 

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the 465 and 400 H&H were both cartridges invented just for the sake of H&H collectors. they use rare bullet diameters and match the ballistics of cartridges already in existence.

why buy a 465 H&H when you can buy a 460 WBY? (same parent case but .468" bullet vs .458" bullet)

why buy the 400 H&H when you can buy the 416 RM? (similar parent case but .411" bullet vs a .416" bullet)

-matt
 

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I was assuming you were referencing the 500/465--one of the lowest pressure cartridges around for African (and earlier Indian) hunting.
 

CoElkHunter

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the 465 and 400 H&H were both cartridges invented just for the sake of H&H collectors. they use rare bullet diameters and match the ballistics of cartridges already in existence.

why buy a 465 H&H when you can buy a 460 WBY? (same parent case but .468" bullet vs .458" bullet)

why buy the 400 H&H when you can buy the 416 RM? (similar parent case but .411" bullet vs a .416" bullet)

-matt
All true. I do like the gently tapered shoulder and long neck of the .400 h & h (haven't seen a photo of the .465 yet). I personally never cared for the sharp double radius shoulders of the Weatherby cartridges, but I think their rifles were designed well, minus the lack of a CRF style action for DG. But I guess they've performed well. I've never owned one, but a friend of mine had a .300 Weatherby Mark V. I prefer my Browning .338WM. Just personal preference.
 

Pheroze

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the 465 and 400 H&H were both cartridges invented just for the sake of H&H collectors. they use rare bullet diameters and match the ballistics of cartridges already in existence.

why buy a 465 H&H when you can buy a 460 WBY? (same parent case but .468" bullet vs .458" bullet)

why buy the 400 H&H when you can buy the 416 RM? (similar parent case but .411" bullet vs a .416" bullet)

-matt
I don't think the attempt at exclusivity takes away from the soundness of these designs. The 400 essentially improves the 450/400 by 200 fps in a case that is built for reliability and moderate pressure. Similarly, the 465 is very usable with a low pressure design in a slick case. The 460 WBY will out perform it but to what end? The designs are also a nod to the past which is fun. The goofy caliber choice certainly makes these a handloading proposition. But, if one likes that kind of tinkering then it's not much of a barrier.

Brass to the 400 is available. But, from what I have read brass for the 465 may be as rare as hens teeth now. Too bad. I wonder if it could be formed from 460 WBY cases simply enough?
 

CoElkHunter

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I really like the case design for this cartridge. But, unlike the 400 H&H, it seems to have faded quickly into obscurity. And, unlike the 400, there does not seem to be an appetite to make bullets for it. So, did the H&H exclusivity preoccupation doom this neat cartridge? Would be great to see this cartridge changed to 458 or 470!
Just FYI, but Midway USA has .400 h and h Norma brass for $55.00us/20 cases? But no .465s.
 

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The .400 H&H and .465 H&H are each sound designs. Bullet diameter may seem weird but runs the same as the 450/400 and 500/465 nitro express cartridges (the latter obviously Holland and Holland’s proprietary cartridge of its class). The thing going against the .465 H&H is the parent case (and that it’s a bit much, all the way around).
 

Pheroze

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The thing going against the .465 H&H is the parent case (and that it’s a bit much, all the way around).
They took a huge case and turned it into something very usable. It's a shame it didnt catch on to even the limited extent the 400 did. I suppose the small market size for that class of cartridge just makes it less viable.
 

CoElkHunter

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They took a huge case and turned it into something very usable. It's a shame it didnt catch on to even the limited extent the 400 did. I suppose the small market size for that class of cartridge just makes it less viable.
I think your right. Timing when a cartridge is developed and released. When the .458WM was released to the public in 1956, there was nothing out there affordable to the average African hunter and it was a great success at that time. Remington came out with the .416 in 1989 (?), and it became a great success to the average hunter versus something like a .416 Rigby with more expensive/limited offerings in available rifles. If the .400 and .465s had been produced earlier, who knows? Although, the odd bore diameters in those calibers probably sealed their fates. Just an observation?
 

CoElkHunter

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I don't think the attempt at exclusivity takes away from the soundness of these designs. The 400 essentially improves the 450/400 by 200 fps in a case that is built for reliability and moderate pressure. Similarly, the 465 is very usable with a low pressure design in a slick case. The 460 WBY will out perform it but to what end? The designs are also a nod to the past which is fun. The goofy caliber choice certainly makes these a handloading proposition. But, if one likes that kind of tinkering then it's not much of a barrier.

Brass to the 400 is available. But, from what I have read brass for the 465 may be as rare as hens teeth now. Too bad. I wonder if it could be formed from 460 WBY cases simply enough?
I was just curious as to what brand of rifle you own that is chambered for the .400 h & h? I have been unable to find any information for that cartridge chambered in a rifle in the U.S.? I really like the dimensions of that cartridge. Thanks!
 

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