Internet purchased JP Sauer gun problems. Any opinions?

[CJW]

Last week I purchased a pre war mauser sporter made by JP Sauer and Sons chambered in 30-06. It features a 25" octagon to round fully ribbed barrel with 100 and 200 yd sights. 200 yd is flip up. The rifling in the barrel looks very good and it has a barrel sling mount. An oberndorf action that is drilled and tapped on the back of the receiver and has a removable dovetail in the barrel for the front mount. The front bridge is stippled. Set triggers. Very good bluing and old color case hardening on the bolt which is barely visible. The stock has a schnabel forend and panels and was refinished but looks pretty good. It also has a nice metal grip cap. Things like the action screws have light engraving. I have always wanted a rifle like this and it is a beauty and there is no way in hell I could afford to build one. A guy who worked at the store was drooling over it. It just looks sleek and handles like a dream because it is pretty lightweight.

Now for the bad news. After filling out the background check, the store owner comes over and looks at the gun sitting in the box. From his angle, the light hit the stock just right and he could see a crack in the stock starting where the barrel and action meet and running at a 30 degree angle through the panel beside the action. It was repaired at some point and actually well done but they added some color before the final finish to darken the area up to camouflage it. This was not noted or purposely photographed in the add. I called the store and after a boring unapologetic conversation in which he admitted he knew of the crack, he contacted the consigner and who said he would reimburse me $100 plus shipping so I would get back $165. Yeah I know the hosed me on shipping too as it wasn't even in a hard case. It also turns out that the consigner is actually just selling it for a widow. Upon going back into the store and looking at it again, we noticed that it is cracked on the other side as well in the same spot. This has not been repaired and doesn't go as far but is definitely cracked. Essentially, when the gun was manufactured or refinished at some point, though I can't see why anyone doing a new finish would remove that much wood, they removed too much wood to give it that slim forend and not enough material remains for strength. So after another call the guy said to just send it back and they will pay shipping.

Now I'm not sure what to think because the store owner thinks I overpaid at $1550 but based on other guns I can find of the same or similar quality and features I think I did OK. That was before the cracked stock of course.

So my question is, does anybody who knows these rifles and their values as this one is featured, have any opinion on it's value with it undoubtedly needing a new stock? I'm sitting here agonizing over sending it back which I know is the smart thing to do since I am not exactly a stock maker and I know what custom stocks cost, but it also bugs the crap out of me that the rest of it is so nice and what I want and I know what it would cost to replace the work on the barrel and action. Then another little voice says to find a reasonably priced mauser stock and shape it myself. Reasonable?

Luckily I don't have to look at it as I left it at the store.

Rant over and accepting opinions.

 

[CJW]

JP Sauer Pre-War Mauser Rifle 7X57

JP Sauer Pre-War Mauser Rifle 7X57 for sale online.

www.gunsinternational.com

This is almost an exact clone. Minus the removeable dovetail in the barrel for the front scope mount and the drilled and tapped receiver.

 

[Red Leg]

Welcome to the world of vintage guns! At the end of the day, the only person that you can rely upon when buying a vintage rifle or shotgun is yourself. Caveat emptor. Over roughly the last five decades, I have earned a very (as in VERY) expensive education in what to look for and what to avoid in vintage firearms. On this side of the pond, at least half, probably closer to two-thirds have issues that would now prevent me from buying them. It took a lot of broken springs, off face actions, ruined solder, and cracked and oil soaked wood to earn that particular diploma. My current collection is exceptional - but damn.

Any vintage rifle or shotgun is worth exactly what someone is willing to pay for it - not what someone or some book says it is worth. You can find a host of firearms moldering on internet sites and gun shop shelves because because the owner believes they are worth "X" but can't find anyone who agrees with him.

Let's take your new acquisition. Assuming the metal work, rifling, engraving and finish are superb and original (a pretty rare thing), I would pay maybe $500 - $600 dollars for the barreled action knowing I had a very expensive stocking effort ahead of me. That little dovetail you mentioned is another very expensive problem as you work with a custom gun maker to sort out appropriate bases. A shade tree gun smith could "fix" it, but that would only devalue it more.

Assuming I spent $500 for the barreled action, $1500 - $2500 for a reasonable facsimile of a Model b stock, and another $500 - $750 for bases and rings, I would have a $2500 - $3750 investment worth maybe $1200 -$1500. Even a Democrat would have a hard time making those numbers work.

Should you be able to get your money back, I would thank several of the many Gods that have fun with those of us who play around with these alluring vintage temptations. If not, there is always the hope that inflation eventually will have made it a bargain.

 

[thriller]

I have a JP sauer 3000 drilling and I love the gun sorry you have had some issues but from my experience the company makes a quality product.

 

[Bullthrower338]

Well said Joe, take the advice, it is the cheapest part of this game!

 

[Red Leg]

Welcome to the world of vintage guns! At the end of the day, the only person that you can rely upon when buying a vintage rifle or shotgun is yourself. Caveat emptor. Over roughly the last five decades, I have earned a very (as in VERY) expensive education in what to look for and what to avoid in vintage firearms. On this side of the pond, at least half, probably closer to two-thirds have issues that would now prevent me from buying them. It took a lot of broken springs, off face actions, ruined solder, and cracked and oil soaked wood to earn that particular diploma. My current collection is exceptional - but damn.

Any vintage rifle or shotgun is worth exactly what someone is willing to pay for it - not what someone or some book says it is worth. You can find a host of firearms moldering on internet sites and gun shop shelves because because the owner believes they are worth "X" but can't find anyone who agrees with him.

Let's take your new acquisition. Assuming the metal work, rifling, engraving and finish are superb and original (a pretty rare thing), I would pay maybe $500 - $600 dollars for the barreled action knowing I had a very expensive stocking effort ahead of me. That little dovetail you mentioned is another very expensive problem as you work with a custom gun maker to sort out appropriate bases. A shade tree gun smith could "fix" it, but that would only devalue it more.

Assuming I spent $500 for the barreled action, $1500 - $2500 for a reasonable facsimile of a Model b stock, and another $500 - $750 for bases and rings, I would have a $2500 - $3750 investment worth maybe $1200 -$1500. Even a Democrat would have a hard time making those numbers work.

Should you be able to get your money back, I would thank several of the many Gods that have fun with those of us who play around with these alluring vintage temptations. If not, there is always the hope that inflation eventually will have made it a bargain.

In fairness, and assuming you are stuck with your rifle, I have enormous pride in a couple of these correctly restored, over invested treasures.

 

[CJW]

In fairness, and assuming you are stuck with your rifle, I have enormous pride in a couple of these correctly restored, over invested treasures.

I'm not stuck with it. I can send it back for the next couple of days if I choose.

Frankly I'm not overly concerned about keeping a gun in the "valued" range. That's not to say I want to throw multiple thousands at a gun but I don't buy guns as investments and having extra money into a gun is pretty much to be expected sometimes. An extra $1000 into a Savage no way. $1000 into a classic pre war firearm is much easier to swallow for me but that's extra spending of my choosing, not being lied to or mislead. As far as scoping I could have the front drilled and tapped and get a store bought mount and rings. For the time being I planned to use the open sights anyways.

Your numbers for the barreled action is around what I was thinking. I would have said $700-800 but I get where you're at. You obviously know more than I.

He said he had the stock off and it was glass bedded and looked good and strong but his attitude didn't exactly give me reason to trust him.

I'll tell you what though. My high sure went to crap when he looked up and asked me, "did they tell you the stock was cracked?"

 

[flatwater bill]

There are a few cheap, push-feed barreled actions listed on Brownell's.....for about $500 delivered. (although most are out of stock) Sounds like yours is a lot nicer. Perhaps you didn't do as bad as you thought. These pre-wars make the basis of some beautiful hunting rifles. Could the stock be made safe to use for a few years while you save up for that Turkish Walnut blank? Best of luck on whatever you decide....................FWB

 

[CJW]

There are a few cheap, push-feed barreled actions listed on Brownell's.....for about $500 delivered. (although most are out of stock) Sounds like yours is a lot nicer. Perhaps you didn't do as bad as you thought. These pre-wars make the basis of some beautiful hunting rifles. Could the stock be made safe to use for a few years while you save up for that Turkish Walnut blank? Best of luck on whatever you decide....................FWB

This is my conundrum in a nut shell. As much as what Red Leg said is true in one sense, it's also true in another. Those little touches that add up would cost me to reproduce as well. Of course I could buy a barreled mauser action, but in reality, how much would it cost me in dollars and time to have a GS mill a barrel to 1/4 length octagon, taper it along its 25", add a rib which I think is the cats meow, sights, sling mount and dovetail scope mount and then blue it? How much to add the lever to the magazine, stipple the bridge or try to replace the set triggers?

I hope I didn't over represent the amount of engraving as it is just some screws and a couple other minor touches but how much for even that?

I also know how wood behaves after almost 100 years and wouldn't be surprised to buy a rifle with a seemingly good stock, only to have it split after a few shooting sessions. Quality 100 year old wood is still 100 year old wood.

I have seen pre war rifles for a little less but they all seem to be missing one or two things or are in desperate need of a bluing.

I see the pro's and con's and am trying to not base my decision off of merely justifying it to myself. The reality is that I wouldn't do business with this place again. I don't care for people who "innocently" leave out important details in hopes that someone won't notice so there is also the point of the matter to consider.

 

[PARA45]

If the seller did not disclosed the crack on the stock until you asked about it? What else could be wrong with the rifle that he has not disclosed?

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Spend the money on a fantastic stock and have fantastic rifle you love. Value also comes in pleasure of ownership.

 

[Spearhead]

This is my conundrum in a nut shell. As much as what Red Leg said is true in one sense, it's also true in another. Those little touches that add up would cost me to reproduce as well. Of course I could buy a barreled mauser action, but in reality, how much would it cost me in dollars and time to have a GS mill a barrel to 1/4 length octagon, taper it along its 25", add a rib which I think is the cats meow, sights, sling mount and dovetail scope mount and then blue it? How much to add the lever to the magazine, stipple the bridge or try to replace the set triggers?

I hope I didn't over represent the amount of engraving as it is just some screws and a couple other minor touches but how much for even that?

I also know how wood behaves after almost 100 years and wouldn't be surprised to buy a rifle with a seemingly good stock, only to have it split after a few shooting sessions. Quality 100 year old wood is still 100 year old wood.

I have seen pre war rifles for a little less but they all seem to be missing one or two things or are in desperate need of a bluing.

I see the pro's and con's and am trying to not base my decision off of merely justifying it to myself. The reality is that I wouldn't do business with this place again. I don't care for people who "innocently" leave out important details in hopes that someone won't notice so there is also the point of the matter to consider.

I don't have any experience with antique firearms, but what I have is experience is in things I like and want and it sounds to me (I'm using emotions more than common sense here) you really want to keep it. It's your money and if you want it,keep it. BUT, why not contact the seller and tell him you want to talk to the widow directly and make her a fair offer considering its condition . Before that though, you have to make up your mind what is a fair price for you to be satisfied. Only you know the answer to that and the other questions.

 

[CJW]

If the seller did not disclosed the crack on the stock until you asked about it? What else could be wrong with the rifle that he has not disclosed?

Good point and something else I've considered. Though I don't know how many sellers go through a gun mechanically. I will check it over well again before I make my final decision.

 

[rookhawk]

I’m unclear what was paid for the rifle so its hard to render an opinion.

If you’re into it for $500, it looks like a nice, high quality, clean gun. If you’re into it for $1500 that’s a different topic altogether.

If it were me, I would unravel the repair. I’d do a full stock restoration, pinning or bracing the repair from the inside with all thread and epoxy, then I’d glass bed the action and the first bit of the barrel, ideally invisibly (not to the top). I’d then use a bit of crazy glue and sandpaper on the stabilized repair to fill in the crack with sawdust. Lastly, I’d do an oil finish with rotten stone to finish the stock and finalize the repair. Will the repair be there? Yes. Will you see it? No. Will it be better than it is now and a really nicely restored gun ready for 100 years of service? Yes. Should you ever sell the undetectable repair to someone else without disclosing it? No.

In my experience, I’d much rather own a repaired gun than a restocked gun. Restocked guns rarely look correct, cost a fortune, and most cracks can be repaired properly while retaining originality. (Cracks to the wrist, pinned at the head, and cracks at the magazine well are the only three I don’t tolerate)

 

[CJW]

Spend the money on a fantastic stock and have fantastic rifle you love. Value also comes in pleasure of ownership.

Mr. Peacocke, I will always cherish your eternal optimism. Your words are very true. Why else would custom stock makers or engravers exist?

You don't know how many times I've envisioned owning an english or european sporter with a nice medium figure walnut with just enough tiger stripe for that old world look.

 

[CJW]

I don't have any experience with antique firearms, but what I have is experience is in things I like and want and it sounds to me (I'm using emotions more than common sense here) you really want to keep it. It's your money and if you want it,keep it. BUT, why not contact the seller and tell him you want to talk to the widow directly and make her a fair offer considering its condition . Before that though, you have to make up your mind what is a fair price for you to be satisfied. Only you know the answer to that and the other questions.

You're spot on. I'm working with emotions vs. practicality. As much as I want it I also hate being taken advantage of.

 

[CJW]

I’m unclear what was paid for the rifle so its hard to render an opinion.

If you’re into it for $500, it looks like a nice, high quality, clean gun. If you’re into it for $1500 that’s a different topic altogether.

If it were me, I would unravel the repair. I’d do a full stock restoration, pinning or bracing the repair from the inside with all thread and epoxy, then I’d glass bed the action and the first bit of the barrel, ideally invisibly (not to the top). I’d then use a bit of crazy glue and sandpaper on the stabilized repair to fill in the crack with sawdust. Lastly, I’d do an oil finish with rotten stone to finish the stock and finalize the repair. Will the repair be there? Yes. Will you see it? No. Will it be better than it is now and a really nicely restored gun ready for 100 years of service? Yes. Should you ever sell the undetectable repair to someone else without disclosing it? No.

In my experience, I’d much rather own a repaired gun than a restocked gun. Restocked guns rarely look correct, cost a fortune, and most cracks can be repaired properly while retaining originality. (Cracks to the wrist, pinned at the head, and cracks at the magazine well are the only three I don’t tolerate)

I paid $1550 on a nice original but refinished gun only to learn the original stock had been cracked AND repaired as well as refinished. Honestly the crack repair is almost invisible which is why it took a third person to see it at the right angle under the lights, but to what degree the repair was done other than outward appearance I do not know. I found out after I left that it is supposedly glass bedded. I did not go through the background check to take possession of the rifle so it's still at the gun shop. I will have to go back and I got their permission to disassemble it.

I don't know alot about stock repair but I'm not sure how one would use all thread in the area of this crack. The wood is pretty thin there. It doesn't appear to be a stress crack from recoil. Just an unfortunate case of cracking at a curve and thin wood.

 

[rookhawk]

You're spot on. I'm working with emotions vs. practicality. As much as I want it I also hate being taken advantage of.

It costs as much to repaint Mustang-1 as it does a Pinto. The net value increased by the endeavor varies by a couple million bucks.

Point being, I think it’s a dandy little rifle but a $5000 stocking job later, you have a $1200 gun on your hands. Repairing the current stock to the highest standards costs a couple hundred bucks and the gun is also worth $1200 when you’re done with it. Fair chance the original stock repaired and restored will look better than the $5000 restocking job.

I try to avoid restocking when at all possible. The only time it made sense was on a $35000+ shotgun where the original stock was beyond repair.

 

[CJW]

It costs as much to repaint Mustang-1 as it does a Pinto. The net value increased by the endeavor varies by a couple million bucks.

Point being, I think it’s a dandy little rifle but a $5000 stocking job later, you have a $1200 gun on your hands. Repairing the current stock to the highest standards costs a couple hundred bucks and the gun is also worth $1200 when you’re done with it. Fair chance the original stock repaired and restored will look better than the $5000 restocking job.

I try to avoid restocking when at all possible. The only time it made sense was on a $35000+ shotgun where the original stock was beyond repair.

Just to be clear. The rifle I posted isn't the rifle I purchased but looks pretty much exactly like it.

I agree with you as well. Patina is difficult to duplicate and if the stock and metal don't match it can look off unless both are refinished.

The only other thing I've thrown around is the cost of someone with a duplicator making me a copy later on with a decent claro blank. That way I can avoid the high cost of a hand made stock.

 

[rookhawk]

I paid $1550 on a nice original but refinished gun only to learn the original stock had been cracked AND repaired as well as refinished. Honestly the crack repair is almost invisible which is why it took a third person to see it at the right angle under the lights, but to what degree the repair was done other than outward appearance I do not know. I found out after I left that it is supposedly glass bedded. I did not go through the background check to take possession of the rifle so it's still at the gun shop. I will have to go back and I got their permission to disassemble it.

I don't know alot about stock repair but I'm not sure how one would use all thread in the area of this crack. The wood is pretty thin there. It doesn't appear to be a stress crack from recoil. Just an unfortunate case of cracking at a curve and thin wood.

If there is enough wood, you typically carve a thin channel from the inside of the stock or two and lay all-thread (tiny allthread) in the channels loosely engulfed by two part epoxy or acriglass. You can then glass bed the action and recoil lug and completely conceal it Internally for more stability. At that point, structurally, your gun is repaired. What remains is to restore the wood. The wood looks like it would clean up very nicely. The wood doesn’t seem to have lost material over time from sanding or wear. With a proper oil finish and rotten stone and slacum grain fill on the stock it will look fantastic.

The price you paid of $1550 without the crack was correct. I dont think $1400 cracked is a good starting point.