In defense of Vintage guns

[Aaron N]

Aaron,

I guess it depends on what you define as "break the bank" or a "sleeper" rifle. I personally own 2 Oberndorf Mauser Type B rifles, one made in 1921 and one made in 1940, both of them were not cheap but also not outrageously expensive like some "best" quality rifles or even new high-end sporters today, yet I would put their fit and finish up against any of those. The Type Bs are the most common and can be found in price ranges of $2000-$4000 so I guess make of that what you will - I think it's a really great value, and will go up over time if cared for. I also would say there is a good market for 2nd hand Griffin and Howes and also pre-64 M70s I think will continue to go up in value.

You might also consider Husqvarna rifles like their 640 or 1640 rifles, these were built on Mauser/modified Mauser actions and while not being super flashy in terms of wood or engraving or anything like that are extremely reliable and functional hunting rifles. I enjoy collecting Scandinavian rifles and I think they are underrated (Schultz and Larsen from Denmark or Kongsberg from Norway are also solid choices if looking at post WW2 rifles).

Like others have posted here I think the craftsmanship you get from those vintage rifles is second to none. They just don't make them like they used to (so I've heard).

The 2-5k price range is kind of where I'm aiming. I've had my eye on a few Husky's but the stars never aligned for them.

 

[Pondoro]

The 2-5k price range is kind of where I'm aiming. I've had my eye on a few Husky's but the stars never aligned for them.

Aaron..there are also a lot more british rifles built on Mannlicher Schønauer or Mauser actions. Many british makers like William Evans, John Wilkes, Charles Lancaster, Army Navy Coop, Midland Gun Co. etc..etc.. built high quality rifles..not best guns but still high quality..

Some turn up at the auction houses like Holt´s and prices are much lower on this side of the pond..

 

[7x57Joe]

Hi,

Here are pictures of a classic Custom Griffin and Howe M1903 Springfield in caliber 30.06.. SN indicates the rifle was built in 1922 at the Springfield armory in Illinois . Back in the 20/30/40/50s a person belonging to the NRA could buy a surplus army issued weapon, have it shipped ( in this case) to Griffin and Howe of New York and they would customize it. This usually meant, fitting a new hand-made stock of imported walnut to fit customer specifications, polishing and reblueing the barrel/action, matting the receiver ring, checkering the bolt handle, fitting a long matted ramp front sight base and special sights ( i.e. Lyman #48 rear peep as on this one) and/or telescopic hunting scope. This generally converted a military musket to the latest and most improved type of hand-made bolt action sporting rifle in its time. A person would be out around $80 to 100 depending on other options like engraving etc.

This rifle was given to me many years ago by my uncle. Over the years the G&H sporterised stock developed some cracks and just did not fit me comfortably, so I did some research and found that the famed Stewart Edward White took one of these to Africa and spent a year or so using it to kill most plains game he encountered. I liked the style and purchaed the stock locally to be fitted to my rifle. All the finish work on the wood was done by me using Birchwood Casey Hand rubbed oil finish and then I sent the stock out to be checkered. I have included pictures here to show the finished work.

Since then I made a trip to Africa and used it on Plains game in the FreeState and Limpopo provinces of So Africa. Shots I took on that trip ranged from 50 to 210+ yds and I never had to take more than one shot on each game animal.

I guess that attests to the legacy of these Classic/Vintage guns.

View attachment 340221
Original Custom G&H M1903 Springfiield w/ Lyman #48 Sight blank

View attachment 340222
NeidnerButt Plate w/ storage for Lyman #48 Peep sight when using scope.

View attachment 340224
G&H Scope Sidemount


View attachment 340226
Bolt Open, checkered bolt knob, and view of Lyman#48 rear peep sight with blank for use when mounting scope

View attachment 340227
New Stewart Edwad White custom stock (English Walnut) ... fitted but unfinished...(notice shadow cheekpiece...an improvement for me, & Schnabel Forend tip). I added a Pachmayr Decelerator recoil pad.

View attachment 340228
My M1903 Springfiled fitted with Stewart Edward White Stock and Original Kahles 4x Scope with G&H Scope Mount and rings.

View attachment 340229

My M1903 Springfield showing completed Stock ..checkered, finished with Birchwood Casey hand Rubbed oil finish (30 Coats) and new Redfield 2x7 Revolution Scope on same G&H detachable mount and rings.

View attachment 340230
Red Hartebeest shot in So Africa at 200 yds

View attachment 340231
Black wildebeest shot at just over 206 yds in FreeState, So Africa

Sir, I certainly like your Springfield!

 

[archerman]

Sir, I certainly like your Springfield!

Sir, I certainly like your Springfield!

,
Thanks , its a real fine gun!

 

[rookhawk]

The 2-5k price range is kind of where I'm aiming. I've had my eye on a few Husky's but the stars never aligned for them.

Aaron, huskies are chainsaws, not fine guns. Working tools at best.

you asked for cheap good guns?

British high quality Lee Speed rifles
Sedgley Springfield customs
Best German Custom Mausers in 8x57JS
GEW88 Custom mausers
London Retailed Mannlichers
Custom Griffin & Howe Springfields
Custom Griffin & Howe mausers and Mod70s in 30-06

All of the above is in the $800-$3500 range for excellent condition examples.

 

[Aaron N]

Aaron, huskies are chainsaws, not fine guns. Working tools at best.

you asked for cheap good guns?

British high quality Lee Speed rifles
Sedgley Springfield customs
Best German Custom Mausers in 8x57JS
GEW88 Custom mausers
London Retailed Mannlichers
Custom Griffin & Howe Springfields
Custom Griffin & Howe mausers and Mod70s in 30-06

All of the above is in the $800-$3500 range for excellent condition examples.

You're right, I wouldn't call them a fine gun by any means, but they tend to work as described, and I would take for around $500 over a new rifle of similar price. If I filled my safe with fine rifles, I would never be able to set foot on African soil again. I wouldn't mind one or two solid "heirloom" pieces that can be appreciated for being somewhat unique, and refined, and not another Tikka T3 in 300win mag. There are enough of those in the bush come November to arm some small nations.

When making bigger purchases, I try and stick to the best of the mid range products, and that's what I'm asking for here. Maybe my price point is out of skew, but I'm here to learn!

 

[rookhawk]

You're right, I wouldn't call them a fine gun by any means, but they tend to work as described, and I would take for around $500 over a new rifle of similar price. If I filled my safe with fine rifles, I would never be able to set foot on African soil again. I wouldn't mind one or two solid "heirloom" pieces that can be appreciated for being somewhat unique, and refined, and not another Tikka T3 in 300win mag. There are enough of those in the bush come November to arm some small nations.

When making bigger purchases, I try and stick to the best of the mid range products, and that's what I'm asking for here. Maybe my price point is out of skew, but I'm here to learn!

That's fair and I'm not ripping on Husqvarna, its just that you can do better.

You just threw out another number for the first time, $500. So the question is "what can I get for $500" thats custom made, high quality, and appreciates in value?

With much searching, you can find:

-A Sedgley Springfield in 30-06
-A Gewehr 98 Commission rifle by a customer German maker with a flat full-length rib in 8x57
-A semi-custom Haenel 98 Mauser with nice engraving in a variety of calibers
-A fairly used pre-64 Winchester model 70 in .270 or .30-06.
-Unknown custom maker 98 large ring custom mauser in most any caliber, medium grade.

There's no reason to settle for anything but quality custom guns or "small factory" guns at any pricepoint. I look down my rack and I say "what would it cost to make this custom gun now?" and every gun has an answer of $3500-$100,000. I assure you, on most occasions, I'm not spending a penny more on my guns than you are on your guns.

You just gotta search.

 

[ms86]

Aaron,

I should've mentioned in my original reply that I've spent the better part of the last several years asking a very similar question to yours. I'm happy to share some of my views if you want to PM me. I will say that somewhat along the lines of what @rookhawk said, it's all about what you are looking for. I've found that regardless of the price point you are always going to face some trade-off between condition, uniqueness, usefulness, and collectability of a gun. For instance, a very high condition in a rare caliber may be a unique entry to a collection and may be valued by collectors but is unlikely to get much use. Conversely, something like a pre-64 M70 that has seen some hunting use in .30-06 is neither rare nor will command the premium of a high condition gun but will certainly be useful and I am sure you'd be proud to own it, scars and all. So it just depends on what you want. For your budget I think you can find a nice option that balances/optimizes whatever criteria you have.

My view is that sporting rifles built between 1920s-1950s on M98 style actions, whether they are Original Oberndorf Mausers or something like a pre-64 M70 or G&H custom rifles or other rifles built by custom gunmakers in the German/American trade will be the best bet for your money. I have benefitted greatly from reading and researching, particularly I would recommend Speed's Original Oberndorf Sporting Rifles book and Olson's Mauser Bolt Rifles book as useful reference points on the M98 platform and sporting rifles built around it.

Again feel free to PM me if you want to discuss! Happy hunting, the real pleasure with vintage guns in my experience is found not just in the pride of ownership or the actual use of them but also the thrill of the chase (perhaps not dissimilar from hunting, eh?)

 

[rookhawk]

So some examples:

this is $700, I’m sure a phone call would get it for $600. Nice German mauser in a great caliber. It would clean up nicely:

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/860491518

 

[CJW]

So some examples:

this is $700, I’m sure a phone call would get it for $600. Nice German mauser in a great caliber. It would clean up nicely:

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/860491518

That's funny. I have that gun in my GB favorites.

 

[MS 9x56]

The cock-on-closing Enfield is one of the best bolt actions around. They're fast and slick as snot. It may not be as strong as the Mauser but it's plenty stout for the .303 British and others of similar size and pressure.

Does a 1944 jungle carbine qualify as vintage?

 

[damundsen87]

A question for our resident experts,

Seeing as not everyone can afford a vintage Rigby, or Holland or Holland, are there any "sleeper" vintage rifles out there that will hold their value over the long term, but not break the bank?

I feel like the FN commercial mausers are one of the better options out there for a reasonably priced classic rifle. A lot of handwork went into them and IMHO they are a step up from an interarms or some of the other mauser clones.

 

[Ray B]

Above is a Southgate Weatherby built on an FN action, 300 Wby. My dad bought it in mid 50s. It is the California style so a lot of conservative types don't care for it. the FN action (in my opinion) is only slightly less than the 98 GEWs and early 98 Ks, primarily due to the rails being bored clear through rather than the "C" style. Otherwise, they're great.

 

[Tom Leoni]

In my case, @rookhawk is more than preaching to the choir. I work for a firearm company and often have to test competitors' rifles--Ruger, SAKO, Tikka, Savage, Weatherby, Winchester, Kimber, Remington, Browning, etc., etc. What I can say is that with today's state of the art, a few hundred dollars can buy you a new rifle easily capable of sub-MOA accuracy. Plus, you get the benefit of warranties, parts, service departments and much more.

But...

There is no substitute for a vintage piece. Period. Even having access to pretty much any brand rifle I want, the rifles that I actually hunt with span from 1738 (the oldest) to about 1935 (the newest). So unless I go on a company-sponsored hunt, I will only hunt with vintage rifles. Ditto for shotguns.

Here are a few pics of my muzzle-loader:

 

[Red Leg]

In my case, @rookhawk is more than preaching to the choir. I work for a firearm company and often have to test competitors' rifles--Ruger, SAKO, Tikka, Savage, Weatherby, Winchester, Kimber, Remington, Browning, etc., etc. What I can say is that with today's state of the art, a few hundred dollars can buy you a new rifle easily capable of sub-MOA accuracy. Plus, you get the benefit of warranties, parts, service departments and much more.

But...

There is no substitute for a vintage piece. Period. Even having access to pretty much any brand rifle I want, the rifles that I actually hunt with span from 1738 (the oldest) to about 1935 (the newest). So unless I go on a company-sponsored hunt, I will only hunt with vintage rifles. Ditto for shotguns.

Here are a few pics of my muzzle-loader:

View attachment 439284View attachment 439285View attachment 439286

Nice Jaeger. I assume converted to percussion in the 1840's?

 

[Tom Leoni]

Nice Jaeger. I assume converted to percussion in the 1840's?

Thanks, that rifle was a truly great find! And yes, it was converted sometime around then.

 

[Red Leg]

Thanks, that rifle was a truly great find! And yes, it was converted sometime around then.

These old wonderful things are a joy.

A Suhl double circa 1840. It has the arms to protect the percussion nipples, and 65 grs of fine BP puts four round balls into three inches at 70 meters. It has killed three Virginia whitetail.

This is also a Suhl. Ross Seyfried suggested the load for it based on three round balls found in the patch box. It took one Virginia whitetail.

And this one is my oldest. Probably French, it is a smoothbore snaphance and not a rifle, but has sights. Dating to the early 18th century, I have not yet had the courage to fire it. It is in nearly perfect condition.

 

[Tom Leoni]

Whoa! What a fantastic collection--and double the kudos for actually using them! Posts like yours are one of the reasons why I love this site.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

All of my favorite firearms are vintage.

My shotgun of choice has always been a beautiful Janssen Freres 12 Gauge ( 3” Magnum ) Sidelock Ejector built in Belgium in 1932.

My preferred rifle is 7x57mm Mauser built by E.J. Churchill in 1967 ( the “Deluxe” model ).

Amongst all the rifles which I’ve hunted in Africa with, my three top favorites will always be:
a) A B.S.A ( Birmingham Small Arms ) Majestic in .243 Winchester
b) A pre ‘64 Winchester Model 70 Super Grade in .30-06 Springfield
c) A pre ‘75 BRNO ZKK602 in .375 Holland & Holland Magnum

None of these fine beauties are made anymore.

 

[375er]

I love the oldies! I have several shotguns over 100 years old that still get shot. Pure classics in my book.