I hear there is a "whale" collector in double rifles

[PCC600]

WR is not owned (at least in part) by the Qataris? I swore I read one of the ruling family did, at least in part.

I believe the Al Thani family from Qatar are majority owners of WR and have been so even when Simon Clode was alive . They have commissioned many extraordinary rifles from WR .

 

[GeorgeGibbs505]

The Gentleman in question also has European Makers building guns for him also.

 

[275r7x57]

The high-end British gun market now operates very differently than most people assume. Most makers are not independent (Westley Richards is a notable exception). And while some luxury brands restrict or control ownership (e.g., Ferrari, Hermès), gunmakers generally do not.

James Purdy & Sons is owned by Richemont SA, and collectively Richemont owns about 30 high-end luxury brands spanning jewelry, watches, fashion (e.g., Cartier, Montblanc, etc.) and the parent company has a market cap of $104 Billion USD. The gun business is a small part of the Richemont portfolio.

Holland and Holland is owned by Beretta, and Beretta bought it from Chanel in 2021. Beretta is privately owned by an Italian family but is based in Luxembourg (for tax and corporate reasons), and Beretta is generally thought to be valued at $2.5B USD. Most of the value is in Beretta and manufacturing business line, not in H&H.

Westley Richards is privately owned by the Clode Family, now owned by Walter Clode’s son Simon Clode following his death in 2022, and has no public valuation at present.

Rigby & Sons is owned by L&O Holding, a German private equity group that also owns Blaser, Mauser, and J.P. Sauer & Sohn, and about 30 other companies. L&O has an asset value of about $250M USD and annual revenue of about $30M USD. A member of the German aristocracy who is, I think, associated with L&O Holdings, is the lessee of the Pian Upe hunting reserve in Uganda.

The market we’re discussing—where someone might order as many as 80 bespoke rifles a year—does exist, even if most of us never see it. There is more than one collection of the type being discussed. A few years ago, I was a guest on an elephant hunt, and my host handed me his brand-new Perugini & Visini .470 NE double to use on the first day. He had never fired it. It was valued at well over $100,000, and he wasn’t concerned; they were already building him another one in .500 NE. His son preferred the 600NE. I don’t know (and don’t really care) how many they actually owned, to them they were just very nice-looking, well balanced and good shooting rifles.

Post WWII, the high-end British gun market was in jeopardy. Clode reportedly bought Westley Richards for about $2,000 in the 1950’s, but the segment has been turned around mostly for brand recognition. Since the bespoke British brands are, for the most part, owned by conglomerates, they are not nearly as concerned about preserving the market share/value as many would think. I don’t actually know much about the financing of the individual gun markers, but I know a lot about how the parent company/conglomerate financing works. There are dealers and collectors with a lot more invested in the market value than the gun makers themselves.

There are several dealers in high-end guns. Mostly those guns and dealers now live in Texas, Oklahoma, Switzerland (e.g. VO Vapen), Dubai, and of course throughout the UK and France. Collections like we are discussing do not usually hit the open market, they (usually) go through discrete brokers/dealers. If you have the financial means to obtain a gun collection worth several tens of millions of dollars, it’s not the only asset in your estate/portfolio and becomes just another part of the estate to be addressed on passing. The owners do not have an incentive to “dump” the collections on the market and thus destroy value, on passing the estate becomes charged with maximizing estate vale.

Its fun to think about these issues, even if we never really see them.

I believe you are only half right on the ownership of WR. Do some more digging.

 

[275r7x57]

I believe the Al Thani family from Qatar are majority owners of WR and have been so even when Simon Clode was alive . They have commissioned many extraordinary rifles from WR .

Beat me to it.

 

[Cleathorn]

I don’t know anything about the Qatari Royal Family, aside from a net worth exceeding $200Billion US. Their holdings would be private and confidential ( I have done legal work with Emiratis, their laws on confidentiality are very robust).

Google AI indicates that an Ali Thani family member holds a directors position in WR with Alexander Clode, itself indicating a substantial investment. Makes complete sense, the business itself is likely worth surprisingly little, even if the delivered product is worth a boat load.

I have no doubt you guys known more about the provenance of bespoke guns than I do, my only real contribution is on the way these companies are now owned, which as I said, is very different than many would assume.

 

[CoElkHunter]

The high-end British gun market now operates very differently than most people assume. Most makers are not independent (Westley Richards is a notable exception). And while some luxury brands restrict or control ownership (e.g., Ferrari, Hermès), gunmakers generally do not.

James Purdy & Sons is owned by Richemont SA, and collectively Richemont owns about 30 high-end luxury brands spanning jewelry, watches, fashion (e.g., Cartier, Montblanc, etc.) and the parent company has a market cap of $104 Billion USD. The gun business is a small part of the Richemont portfolio.

Holland and Holland is owned by Beretta, and Beretta bought it from Chanel in 2021. Beretta is privately owned by an Italian family but is based in Luxembourg (for tax and corporate reasons), and Beretta is generally thought to be valued at $2.5B USD. Most of the value is in Beretta and manufacturing business line, not in H&H.

Westley Richards is privately owned by the Clode Family, now owned by Walter Clode’s son Simon Clode following his death in 2022, and has no public valuation at present.

Rigby & Sons is owned by L&O Holding, a German private equity group that also owns Blaser, Mauser, and J.P. Sauer & Sohn, and about 30 other companies. L&O has an asset value of about $250M USD and annual revenue of about $30M USD. A member of the German aristocracy who is, I think, associated with L&O Holdings, is the lessee of the Pian Upe hunting reserve in Uganda.

The market we’re discussing—where someone might order as many as 80 bespoke rifles a year—does exist, even if most of us never see it. There is more than one collection of the type being discussed. A few years ago, I was a guest on an elephant hunt, and my host handed me his brand-new Perugini & Visini .470 NE double to use on the first day. He had never fired it. It was valued at well over $100,000, and he wasn’t concerned; they were already building him another one in .500 NE. His son preferred the 600NE. I don’t know (and don’t really care) how many they actually owned, to them they were just very nice-looking, well balanced and good shooting rifles.

Post WWII, the high-end British gun market was in jeopardy. Clode reportedly bought Westley Richards for about $2,000 in the 1950’s, but the segment has been turned around mostly for brand recognition. Since the bespoke British brands are, for the most part, owned by conglomerates, they are not nearly as concerned about preserving the market share/value as many would think. I don’t actually know much about the financing of the individual gun markers, but I know a lot about how the parent company/conglomerate financing works. There are dealers and collectors with a lot more invested in the market value than the gun makers themselves.

There are several dealers in high-end guns. Mostly those guns and dealers now live in Texas, Oklahoma, Switzerland (e.g. VO Vapen), Dubai, and of course throughout the UK and France. Collections like we are discussing do not usually hit the open market, they (usually) go through discrete brokers/dealers. If you have the financial means to obtain a gun collection worth several tens of millions of dollars, it’s not the only asset in your estate/portfolio and becomes just another part of the estate to be addressed on passing. The owners do not have an incentive to “dump” the collections on the market and thus destroy value, on passing the estate becomes charged with maximizing estate vale.

Its fun to think about these issues, even if we never really see them.

Until recently, I had no idea Swarovski made jewelry?

 

[Green Chile]

There is an Australian hunter and collector who ordered 9 consecutively numbered rifles from Purdey . Took years but they eventually all arrived together . They ranged from a break action single shot to a 600 NE . Photos are on another forum . He also ordered 7 more rifles from Boss all consecutive numbers . I am not sure if they have been delivered yet. Mostly sxs with and an o/u . Again ranging from light calibres to 600 NE . This is all on top of an amazing collection of preowned rifles , many ex Indian Princes . Aussies on this forum will know who I mean . There are a few other stunning collections over here but are mainly pre WW2 weapons .A guy I buy off had so many that the Managing Director of Holland & Holland flew out to value the rifles for insurance purposes about 20 years ago .

The problem with collecting in Australia is….Australia. They are crushing guns and limiting ownership.

 

[PCC600]

The problem with collecting in Australia is….Australia. They are crushing guns and limiting ownership.

Not true . Rifles are being registered in Queensland without any problems . I have never had a firearm surrendered or crushed ever . Not forcibly or voluntarily .

 

[Tanks]

Until recently, I had no idea Swarovski made jewelry?

Most have no idea they make optics.

 

[CoElkHunter]

Most have no idea they make optics.

True. I guess I need to get out more and expand my horizons, but I find it a little weird that a top notch rifle scope/binocular manufacturer also makes higher end jewelry? Or maybe visa versa? Anyway, to me it would be like a premium rifle manufacturer like Rigby making top end compound archery bows? Just strange to me.

 

[baxterb]

True. I guess I need to get out more and expand my horizons, but I find it a little weird that a top notch rifle scope/binocular manufacturer also makes higher end jewelry? Or maybe visa versa? Anyway, to me it would be like a premium rifle manufacturer like Rigby making top end compound archery bows? Just strange to me.

I think once you master how to deal with crystals and make glass etc, getting into telescopes etc isn't that far of a leap since the glass I would think is the most difficult part to sort out. Just like the Schott company, who is owned by Zeiss. also makes bar tumblers.

 

[rookhawk]

It would be comical if that happened.

Cabelas did the same thing to Dakota.

When Cabelas flooded the market with all the Dakotas it was a glorious era. Dakota was in dire financial straits and not only did Cabelas get their new stock, they got all the shelf-worn dealer-demo/trade-show/returned Dakotas as well.

How cheap were they? I bought a Model 10 with exhibition wood in 260 remington for $2600. I bought a plain blued model in I think 257 Roberts for $2900. I immediately sent them back to Dakota and had them remanufactured into a 275 Rigby and a 300HH of course. (At that time, the work cost $900 a rifle)

Glorious days for the buyers that jumped on the bargains circa 2014.

 

[MacJenkins]

When Cabelas flooded the market with all the Dakotas it was a glorious era. Dakota was in dire financial straits and not only did Cabelas get their new stock, they got all the shelf-worn dealer-demo/trade-show/returned Dakotas as well.

How cheap were they? I bought a Model 10 with exhibition wood in 260 remington for $2600. I bought a plain blued model in I think 257 Roberts for $2900. I immediately sent them back to Dakota and had them remanufactured into a 275 Rigby and a 300HH of course. (At that time, the work cost $900 a rifle)

Glorious days for the buyers that jumped on the bargains circa 2014.

I picked up gorgeous 300 H&H bolt gun around then too for around the same money.

 

[SoDak Jay]

I don’t know if this is the “Whale” but someone is having one heck of an auction on Gunbroker right now.

 

[Hornedfrogbbq]

I don’t know if this is the “Whale” but someone is having one heck of an auction on Gunbroker right now.

? Links? I haven't seen it.

 

[SoDak Jay]

? Links? I haven't seen it.

https://www.gunbroker.com/all/search?sort=0&includesellers=86817&collectorselite=1

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

I don’t know if this is the “Whale” but someone is having one heck of an auction on Gunbroker right now.

https://www.gunbroker.com/all/search?sort=0&includesellers=86817&collectorselite=1

That is Dwight of Sportsmans Legacy. I’ve bought high quality rifles from him. He is a class act.

I may be wrong but a lot of his inventory is on consignment.

Perhaps 10 years ago the owner of Cheaper than Dirt was buying high condition vintage American shotguns. Perhaps our white whale is a business owner like him, or Dwight?

Or maybe it is a buying agent. Someone who bids for many clients up to the amount authorized by each client for specific guns? This is what I think is the whale.

 

[Hornedfrogbbq]

https://www.gunbroker.com/all/search?sort=0&includesellers=86817&collectorselite=1

Thank you! I have never seen this or this type of sale in that format.

 

[crackerman]

I would believe that easily. Locally here in New Hampshire the owner of Shooters Outpost is getting up in age and is moving his NFA collection to auction.

The man had an awesome museum made out of his collection and has split the auction up so not drop the Full auto market prices.

https://www.facebook.com/Outpostnh/

 

[Esoteric Junkie]

https://www.gunbroker.com/all/search?sort=0&includesellers=86817&collectorselite=1

The starting bids are a joke. Everything is so overpriced!

EJ