I hear there is a "whale" collector in double rifles

[hseII]

He must have one heck of a gun room.
I'd be happy owning 1 bespoke double.

Agreed.

If a fellow already had .375 covered in a CRF rifle,

What would be the best overall chambering for a larger caliber in a proper Double Rifle?

 

[ftrovato]

You’d be surprised. Also, it is not $100-$200K up front. It is almost like a layaway plan where one is making payments as the gun is getting built. So, if one can make $25K yearly payments, then one can afford those rifles. Heck, maybe that’s what I should do with my Social Security payments starting this year.

Great way to invest social security rather then spending it!

 

[Tubby’s Canteen]

I’m not sure if the two are connected but the post about the recent rock island auction had a bidder #22 who bought extensive doubles and safari rifles.

 

[Altitude sickness]

I find it hard to believe any manufacturer would buy back firearms to “save” the market.

1. Their margins are not large enough to have the luxury to buy 10s of millions in firearms at one wack.

2. Companies don’t exist to buy back products unless it was perhaps only their brand and rare notable firearms. And would still only pay cents on the dollar.

There are however many gun buzzards that would swoop in and offer a widow several Pennies on the dollar for the whole pile. Citing the small market, years tied up selling them, risk.

 

[PCC600]

I find it hard to believe any manufacturer would buy back firearms to “save” the market.

1. Their margins are not large enough to have the luxury to buy 10s of millions in firearms at one wack.

2. Companies don’t exist to buy back products unless it was perhaps only their brand and rare notable firearms. And would still only pay cents on the dollar.

There are however many gun buzzards that would swoop in and offer a widow several Pennies on the dollar for the whole pile. Citing the small market, years tied up selling them, risk.

Manufacturers often run buy back schemes to control new and second hand markets . In Australia Caterpillar entered the plant hire business in a big way to control the second hand equipment market . Basically traded gear got a yellow respray and went back to work at CAT hire outlets . They were desperate to buy a plant hire business I controlled over 20 years ago . They paid through the nose to get it .

 

[Altitude sickness]

I should have been more clear. There are many industries that buy and sell used products that they made.

Modern British firearms manufacturers do not have the margins to be sitting on tens of millions of capital to have that luxury. Maybe the group owned by a Mideast billionaire could swing that.

Large estate buyers would most likely step in. Many already have a system of slowly selling these type of firearms to keep the value up.

 

[dogcat1]

The used gun market for high end gun is very limited with limited buyers. I deal with one such outfit for the buying and selling of some of mine. They are not getting rich and the audience for $25000 + guns of any type is seriously limited. You see a lot of tire kickers at gun shows and SCI and other shows but not a lot of buyers. Honestly, it seems there are more high shotgun buyers than rifle buyers from I see.

The market for older doubles is somewhat strong but limited. You will note that current doubles (new) outside of Heym and a couple of others is somewhat strong but that is due to price point. Collectors do not live in "our world" of guns.

They hire experts to source guns, evaluate guns and broker the transactions. There are a host of frauds out there peddling imperfect or marred "vintage", especially older English doubles and bolt guns. Buyer beware! I have been scammed once and learned an expensive lesson on how to buy and how to verifty.
I would think that those buyers are not hanging around here looking for "deals".
If I am wrong, let me know!

 

[Russ16]

I should have been more clear. There are many industries that buy and sell used products that they made.

Modern British firearms manufacturers do not have the margins to be sitting on tens of millions of capital to have that luxury. Maybe the group owned by a Mideast billionaire could swing that.

Large estate buyers would most likely step in. Many already have a system of slowly selling these type of firearms to keep the value up.

That’s true. But historically some of those makers have dedicated collectors that they cater to. They keep track of where their best guns go and if they are going to be offered for sale will often broker the sale to one of the collectors. In that case they often appear to be the buyer but are just a pass through to the new owner.

Thats why a lot of really special guns don’t hit the general market. Some do but a lot don’t.

 

[Cranhill]

I find it hard to believe any manufacturer would buy back firearms to “save” the market.

1. Their margins are not large enough to have the luxury to buy 10s of millions in firearms at one wack.

2. Companies don’t exist to buy back products unless it was perhaps only their brand and rare notable firearms. And would still only pay cents on the dollar.

There are however many gun buzzards that would swoop in and offer a widow several Pennies on the dollar for the whole pile. Citing the small market, years tied up selling them, risk.

I went to quite a few gun auctions in the Birmingham UK in mid 1980's and nearly everytime there were London gunmakers buying their own rifles.

 

[Wildwillalaska]

Seems the major high end makers, Westley Richards, Holland and Holland, Rigby and Purdy, likely have the operating capital to merchandise their outlets if/when the opportunity arises. They all have major backing, well I don’t know for WR only that some refer to middle eastern backing. But Holland was owned by Chanel and now Beretta Group, Rigby by Blaser Group, and Purdey by Richemont.

These aren’t the little bespoke makers of yesteryear, peddling their wares and hoping to make it through the next slow time. They all have major financial backing from groups and entities that recognize and value the BRAND!

 

[Altitude sickness]

Ok, we have moved the goal posts to buying one or two rifles. I thought the discussion was a Mfg buying a “Whales” collection. Earlier post guessed 4000 rifles at approximately $10 million. I don’t think Manufacturers buy large collections. Being a broker is a different discussion.

 

[spike.t]

Anyone have estimate of the number and breadth of William J. Feldstein‘s collection? Even just the number of doubles?

He must be getting on a bit now.....

 

[baxterb]

There have always been guys ordering regularly from the big makers. My guess is these aren’t all rifles but sets of shotguns as well. Bob Petersen the publisher was one. As was Bob Lee for a while.

I know a guy who built a lot of rifles for Bob. He used to joke that he would have been a world famous maker had Bob not simply bought everything that he made. ;-)

 

[Cranhill]

That’s true. But historically some of those makers have dedicated collectors that they cater to. They keep track of where their best guns go and if they are going to be offered for sale will often broker the sale to one of the collectors. In that case they often appear to be the buyer but are just a pass through to the new owner.

Thats why a lot of really special guns don’t hit the general market. Some do but a lot don’t.

A friend of mine died and during his life he'd been given a Mauser M66 Diplomat in 7x64, the wood in it very high grade walnut, the whole rifle was top of the line. His widow arranged for all of his collection collected by well known auction house in UK, they everything including the Mauser, it never made it catalogue, all enquires regarding it, were not replied too, it vanished.

 

[Hornedfrogbbq]

I think this cat bought 40-80 new British shotguns and double rifles...so figure $8-10mm a year for 30 years.

I have no clue if any of this is accurate but I believe it honestly.

 

[Hornedfrogbbq]

The used gun market for high end gun is very limited with limited buyers. I deal with one such outfit for the buying and selling of some of mine. They are not getting rich and the audience for $25000 + guns of any type is seriously limited. You see a lot of tire kickers at gun shows and SCI and other shows but not a lot of buyers. Honestly, it seems there are more high shotgun buyers than rifle buyers from I see.

The market for older doubles is somewhat strong but limited. You will note that current doubles (new) outside of Heym and a couple of others is somewhat strong but that is due to price point. Collectors do not live in "our world" of guns.

They hire experts to source guns, evaluate guns and broker the transactions. There are a host of frauds out there peddling imperfect or marred "vintage", especially older English doubles and bolt guns. Buyer beware! I have been scammed once and learned an expensive lesson on how to buy and how to verifty.
I would think that those buyers are not hanging around here looking for "deals".
If I am wrong, let me know!

Who are the "experts" folks hire to do this for them? Anyone know? I am sure they are around but I know nothing of that market.

 

[Cleathorn]

The high-end British gun market now operates very differently than most people assume. Most makers are not independent (Westley Richards is a notable exception). And while some luxury brands restrict or control ownership (e.g., Ferrari, Hermès), gunmakers generally do not.

James Purdy & Sons is owned by Richemont SA, and collectively Richemont owns about 30 high-end luxury brands spanning jewelry, watches, fashion (e.g., Cartier, Montblanc, etc.) and the parent company has a market cap of $104 Billion USD. The gun business is a small part of the Richemont portfolio.

Holland and Holland is owned by Beretta, and Beretta bought it from Chanel in 2021. Beretta is privately owned by an Italian family but is based in Luxembourg (for tax and corporate reasons), and Beretta is generally thought to be valued at $2.5B USD. Most of the value is in Beretta and manufacturing business line, not in H&H.

Westley Richards is privately owned by the Clode Family, now owned by Walter Clode’s son Simon Clode following his death in 2022, and has no public valuation at present.

Rigby & Sons is owned by L&O Holding, a German private equity group that also owns Blaser, Mauser, and J.P. Sauer & Sohn, and about 30 other companies. L&O has an asset value of about $250M USD and annual revenue of about $30M USD. A member of the German aristocracy who is, I think, associated with L&O Holdings, is the lessee of the Pian Upe hunting reserve in Uganda.

The market we’re discussing—where someone might order as many as 80 bespoke rifles a year—does exist, even if most of us never see it. There is more than one collection of the type being discussed. A few years ago, I was a guest on an elephant hunt, and my host handed me his brand-new Perugini & Visini .470 NE double to use on the first day. He had never fired it. It was valued at well over $100,000, and he wasn’t concerned; they were already building him another one in .500 NE. His son preferred the 600NE. I don’t know (and don’t really care) how many they actually owned, to them they were just very nice-looking, well balanced and good shooting rifles.

Post WWII, the high-end British gun market was in jeopardy. Clode reportedly bought Westley Richards for about $2,000 in the 1950’s, but the segment has been turned around mostly for brand recognition. Since the bespoke British brands are, for the most part, owned by conglomerates, they are not nearly as concerned about preserving the market share/value as many would think. I don’t actually know much about the financing of the individual gun markers, but I know a lot about how the parent company/conglomerate financing works. There are dealers and collectors with a lot more invested in the market value than the gun makers themselves.

There are several dealers in high-end guns. Mostly those guns and dealers now live in Texas, Oklahoma, Switzerland (e.g. VO Vapen), Dubai, and of course throughout the UK and France. Collections like we are discussing do not usually hit the open market, they (usually) go through discrete brokers/dealers. If you have the financial means to obtain a gun collection worth several tens of millions of dollars, it’s not the only asset in your estate/portfolio and becomes just another part of the estate to be addressed on passing. The owners do not have an incentive to “dump” the collections on the market and thus destroy value, on passing the estate becomes charged with maximizing estate vale.

Its fun to think about these issues, even if we never really see them.

 

[Russ16]

The high-end British gun market now operates very differently than most people assume. Most makers are not independent (Westley Richards is a notable exception). And while some luxury brands restrict or control ownership (e.g., Ferrari, Hermès), gunmakers generally do not.

James Purdy & Sons is owned by Richemont SA, and collectively Richemont owns about 30 high-end luxury brands spanning jewelry, watches, fashion (e.g., Cartier, Montblanc, etc.) and the parent company has a market cap of $104 Billion USD. The gun business is a small part of the Richemont portfolio.

Holland and Holland is owned by Beretta, and Beretta bought it from Chanel in 2021. Beretta is privately owned by an Italian family but is based in Luxembourg (for tax and corporate reasons), and Beretta is generally thought to be valued at $2.5B USD. Most of the value is in Beretta and manufacturing business line, not in H&H.

Westley Richards is privately owned by the Clode Family, now owned by Walter Clode’s son Simon Clode following his death in 2022, and has no public valuation at present.

Rigby & Sons is owned by L&O Holding, a German private equity group that also owns Blaser, Mauser, and J.P. Sauer & Sohn, and about 30 other companies. L&O has an asset value of about $250M USD and annual revenue of about $30M USD. A member of the German aristocracy who is, I think, associated with L&O Holdings, is the lessee of the Pian Upe hunting reserve in Uganda.

The market we’re discussing—where someone might order as many as 80 bespoke rifles a year—does exist, even if most of us never see it. There is more than one collection of the type being discussed. A few years ago, I was a guest on an elephant hunt, and my host handed me his brand-new Perugini & Visini .470 NE double to use on the first day. He had never fired it. It was valued at well over $100,000, and he wasn’t concerned; they were already building him another one in .500 NE. His son preferred the 600NE. I don’t know (and don’t really care) how many they actually owned, to them they were just very nice-looking, well balanced and good shooting rifles.

Post WWII, the high-end British gun market was in jeopardy. Clode reportedly bought Westley Richards for about $2,000 in the 1950’s, but the segment has been turned around mostly for brand recognition. Since the bespoke British brands are, for the most part, owned by conglomerates, they are not nearly as concerned about preserving the market share/value as many would think. I don’t actually know much about the financing of the individual gun markers, but I know a lot about how the parent company/conglomerate financing works. There are dealers and collectors with a lot more invested in the market value than the gun makers themselves.

There are several dealers in high-end guns. Mostly those guns and dealers now live in Texas, Oklahoma, Switzerland (e.g. VO Vapen), Dubai, and of course throughout the UK and France. Collections like we are discussing do not usually hit the open market, they (usually) go through discrete brokers/dealers. If you have the financial means to obtain a gun collection worth several tens of millions of dollars, it’s not the only asset in your estate/portfolio and becomes just another part of the estate to be addressed on passing. The owners do not have an incentive to “dump” the collections on the market and thus destroy value, on passing the estate becomes charged with maximizing estate vale.

Its fun to think about these issues, even if we never really see them.

Very well put.

I know of a man who had one of the top American single shot rifle collections in the country. Schuetzen type rifles as well as sharps etc. as he got older he decided to get out of the collection. He had a very specific strategy for how they were sold using a coupe of different dealers over a period of years. He knew if he put them all out at once it would basically collapse the market.

 

[PCC600]

Who are the "experts" folks hire to do this for them? Anyone know? I am sure they are around but I know nothing of that market.

I use experts to source interesting firearms . Well known to shooting community . My rifles have never traded in the open market . Generally I get a call when a collection is being broken up . Always good to be an insider .

 

[baxterb]

The high-end British gun market now operates very differently than most people assume. Most makers are not independent (Westley Richards is a notable exception). And while some luxury brands restrict or control ownership (e.g., Ferrari, Hermès), gunmakers generally do not.

James Purdy & Sons is owned by Richemont SA, and collectively Richemont owns about 30 high-end luxury brands spanning jewelry, watches, fashion (e.g., Cartier, Montblanc, etc.) and the parent company has a market cap of $104 Billion USD. The gun business is a small part of the Richemont portfolio.

Holland and Holland is owned by Beretta, and Beretta bought it from Chanel in 2021. Beretta is privately owned by an Italian family but is based in Luxembourg (for tax and corporate reasons), and Beretta is generally thought to be valued at $2.5B USD. Most of the value is in Beretta and manufacturing business line, not in H&H.

Westley Richards is privately owned by the Clode Family, now owned by Walter Clode’s son Simon Clode following his death in 2022, and has no public valuation at present.

Rigby & Sons is owned by L&O Holding, a German private equity group that also owns Blaser, Mauser, and J.P. Sauer & Sohn, and about 30 other companies. L&O has an asset value of about $250M USD and annual revenue of about $30M USD. A member of the German aristocracy who is, I think, associated with L&O Holdings, is the lessee of the Pian Upe hunting reserve in Uganda.

The market we’re discussing—where someone might order as many as 80 bespoke rifles a year—does exist, even if most of us never see it. There is more than one collection of the type being discussed. A few years ago, I was a guest on an elephant hunt, and my host handed me his brand-new Perugini & Visini .470 NE double to use on the first day. He had never fired it. It was valued at well over $100,000, and he wasn’t concerned; they were already building him another one in .500 NE. His son preferred the 600NE. I don’t know (and don’t really care) how many they actually owned, to them they were just very nice-looking, well balanced and good shooting rifles.

Post WWII, the high-end British gun market was in jeopardy. Clode reportedly bought Westley Richards for about $2,000 in the 1950’s, but the segment has been turned around mostly for brand recognition. Since the bespoke British brands are, for the most part, owned by conglomerates, they are not nearly as concerned about preserving the market share/value as many would think. I don’t actually know much about the financing of the individual gun markers, but I know a lot about how the parent company/conglomerate financing works. There are dealers and collectors with a lot more invested in the market value than the gun makers themselves.

There are several dealers in high-end guns. Mostly those guns and dealers now live in Texas, Oklahoma, Switzerland (e.g. VO Vapen), Dubai, and of course throughout the UK and France. Collections like we are discussing do not usually hit the open market, they (usually) go through discrete brokers/dealers. If you have the financial means to obtain a gun collection worth several tens of millions of dollars, it’s not the only asset in your estate/portfolio and becomes just another part of the estate to be addressed on passing. The owners do not have an incentive to “dump” the collections on the market and thus destroy value, on passing the estate becomes charged with maximizing estate vale.

Its fun to think about these issues, even if we never really see them.

WR is not owned (at least in part) by the Qataris? I swore I read one of the ruling family did, at least in part.