How dangerous is dangerous hunting?

BourbonTrail

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Listen to your PH and don't go all Leroy Jenkins and you should have a good hunt.

When you get out of the truck, and see a lion track that looks about the size of a basketball in the Kalahari sand...trust me when I say your heart will get pumping!
LEROY JENNKKIIINNNNNSS!!! :ROFLMAO:
 

reineke

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@Hank2211: no we won't discuss captive bred hunting for long or whether the"hunt" is thrilling or difficult. It is just one thing that closes the discussion for me: if you know there is a lion around, sometimes even exactly which one, and it cannot escape, and lived his life in a cage or small fenced-in compartment, eating goat meat, it is no fair sport und definitely has got nothing to do with hunting- it is nothing but armed shopping, more or less dangerous.
 

southern_fowler

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I wish we had hunters would learn to except what others do even if we do not agree with the way it’s done giving that’s it’s legal. I believe a wise man once said “ A house divided will not stand”. I personally have hunted CBL, she was on a ranch that SAPA certified and within days of her release was making kills. On the day I shot her we bumped her off a warthog, she went about 300 yards double backed and we waiting 10’ off her old track when I shot her at roughly 15 yards. On the same trip we were stalking buffalo and he charged unprovoked. If I was smarter I would post a short video of the buff.
 

Tanks

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I wish we had hunters would learn to except what others do even if we do not agree with the way it’s done giving that’s it’s legal. ...
Oh, we are taking an exception to it for sure and not accepting it when it comes to CBL. So, your wishes have come true. ;)
 

WAB

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I guess there’s too much farmer in me. I don’t care to hunt CBL, at the same time I really don’t care if someone raises lions for hides and bones and shoots them in the head with a .22 when they are ready to harvest. It’s an animal that can be raised for profit just like a cow or a pig.

I doubt I will ever hunt lion, but if I do it will be a tracking hunt for a wild lion. That narrows the field of opportunity pretty drastically.
 

mrpoindexter

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On a little lighter note.. DG guns might be dangerous too...;D

"NN" lined up for the shot and then... B-BOOM, the elephant disappeared in the bush, I focused on the elephant, then on my father and tracker who were staring at the place where "NN" used to be.. I heared Barizza the tracker mumbling something in total disbelief.....
"NN" had wanished..
Apparently "NN" had been standing on the edge of a depression in the terrain and fell into it double discharging his 470 NE. Wish I had it on film:D Anyways,,the elephant went down 60-100 meters away. First shot hit good. Everybody happy although "NN" had thorn up his thumb on the top lever, bruised chin, hurting fingers and hurt pride. But the exellent trophy made up for it.
I remember the first time I fired a .416 Rigby (express sights) and I shot it twice off sticks and couldn't pull my bow back for 3 days. I was told that was a gun that kills on one end and wounds on the other. They were not kidding.
 

reineke

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@southern_fowler : yes, but the house of the hunters will collapse if unethical hunters who hunt semi-tame lion live in them. Their behaviour cannot be explained even to tolerant non- hunters- who, by the way, will decide the future of hunting.
 

mrpoindexter

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@southern_fowler : yes, but the house of the hunters will collapse if unethical hunters who hunt semi-tame lion live in them. Their behaviour cannot be explained even to tolerant non- hunters- who, by the way, will decide the future of hunting.

Replace semi-tame lion with "endangered species" or any other buzz word the left cooks up and watch how many people suddenly get ejected from our house. For starters, how semi-tame are these lions? I doubt they are semi tame unless you refer to any animal that has lost its fear of man as semi tame.

If that is the case, should we then also eject all those who hunt Texas Dall sheep on fenced ranches that behave more like, well, sheep, than fully wild animals? If we are filling our freezer to eat the animals, is there a need that it must be a fully wild animal that can run off the property and never give us a chance to close to within shooting range?

Be careful when you start carving out one group or another for exclusion, lest you find that the spot and stalkers become the only "true" hunters and people who climb up into tree stands or sit in blinds are relegated to ambush hunters that are not real hunters. Then we can kick out people who use high powered rifles for those who stick to primitive weapons. Then the bow hunters can fracture with the traditional longbow shooters ejecting those using compounds.

This never ends. I think the line we draw is simple.

1. Is it LEGAL? If yes, then let's stand up for their ability to do that. If you think they shouldn't be able to, then change the law - just be warned that those who will help you are not going to stop where you do. They will keep coming and will be more successful as soon as they find a few hunters that take offense to somebody not as ethical as their personal ethics of hunting are and our membership will shrink further as we eliminate X, then Y, then Z and then start back up at the beginning of the alphabet and work our way down again.

In further response to the above, I would like to say that I have had multiple PHs in Africa tell me the CBL hunts are far more dangerous than wild lion hunts. They were not making a statement of ethics or which hunt is better, but just speaking from a danger/safety perspective. Given their profession, I would take what they say at face value and my interpretation would be that if they are that much more dangerous, how semi tame can they really be?

Finally, I want to say that it should not be up to others how we hunt unless we want to say that hunting is a privilege and not a right. If it is a right, they cannot take it away from us and I say we have just as much right to hunt as lions, bears and your neighbor's house cat. If it is a privilege, be prepared for the "tolerant" ones to take away our ability to hunt because the anti-hunting crowd is more efficient at painting a narrative and certainly better at dividing us up and picking us off than we are at converting them over.
 

reineke

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Well I must confess that you put a lot of thought into yor replay, and it gave me a lot to think about. Especially the last section makes me feel I have missed something in my european- style reasoning. Thank you!
 

reineke

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I ment to say " response"
 

mrpoindexter

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Well I must confess that you put a lot of thought into yor replay, and it gave me a lot to think about. Especially the last section makes me feel I have missed something in my european- style reasoning. Thank you!
Well, we think a little differently here in America and it is a cultural thing. I think it was best described the other day when somebody posted that Americans have the idea that we can do anything unless it is otherwise restricted. Heck, even the 2nd Amendment doesn't "give us" the right to bear arms. It presents it as a right that exists even without the government and the 2nd Amendment only limits our government's ability to restrict that right we have as a natural right.

If we are allowed to protect ourselves as a natural right, then are we allowed to hunt to feed ourselves as a natural right? I say yes, we are.

Now, we just need some European style thinkers to march over to their government representatives and get them to open up bowhunting in their European countries so I can come and have a productive visit.
 

Hank2211

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@Hank2211: no we won't discuss captive bred hunting for long or whether the"hunt" is thrilling or difficult. It is just one thing that closes the discussion for me: if you know there is a lion around, sometimes even exactly which one, and it cannot escape, and lived his life in a cage or small fenced-in compartment, eating goat meat, it is no fair sport und definitely has got nothing to do with hunting- it is nothing but armed shopping, more or less dangerous.
What do you mean by "it cannot escape?"

I hunted lion in the Bubye Valley Conservancy in Zimbabwe once - the area is about 985,000 acres, or a little more than 1,500 square miles, all of it fenced (in fact, double fenced!). Could that lion escape?

Or is the problem (from your perspective) that the lion 'lived his life in a cage or small fenced-in compartment?" How small does the "compartment" have to be to be too small for you?

Or is the issue simply that the lion was bred in captivity? In which case, I assume you don't agree that much of what is called hunting in South Africa is indeed hunting?

I'm really not trying to be difficult. I'm just trying to understand what some people call hunting and what others refuse to call hunting. I've never had an adequate explantation of the differences between captive bred lion or, say, buffalo, sable, roan, springbuck, etc., all of which are captive bred on an industrial scale in South Africa, or perhaps I'm just not smart enough to understand what must be obvious to some?

Both are possible responses BTW . . .
 

reineke

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Well, we think a little differently here in America and it is a cultural thing. I think it was best described the other day when somebody posted that Americans have the idea that we can do anything unless it is otherwise restricted. Heck, even the 2nd Amendment doesn't "give us" the right to bear arms. It presents it as a right that exists even without the government and the 2nd Amendment only limits our government's ability to restrict that right we have as a natural right.

If we are allowed to protect ourselves as a natural right, then are we allowed to hunt to feed ourselves as a natural right? I say yes, we are.

Now, we just need some European style thinkers to march over to their government representatives and get them to open up bowhunting in their European countries so I can come and have a productive visit.
Just one wisecrack: since one do you eat Lion meat?
 

375Fox

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Replace semi-tame lion with "endangered species" or any other buzz word the left cooks up and watch how many people suddenly get ejected from our house. For starters, how semi-tame are these lions? I doubt they are semi tame unless you refer to any animal that has lost its fear of man as semi tame.

If that is the case, should we then also eject all those who hunt Texas Dall sheep on fenced ranches that behave more like, well, sheep, than fully wild animals? If we are filling our freezer to eat the animals, is there a need that it must be a fully wild animal that can run off the property and never give us a chance to close to within shooting range?

Be careful when you start carving out one group or another for exclusion, lest you find that the spot and stalkers become the only "true" hunters and people who climb up into tree stands or sit in blinds are relegated to ambush hunters that are not real hunters. Then we can kick out people who use high powered rifles for those who stick to primitive weapons. Then the bow hunters can fracture with the traditional longbow shooters ejecting those using compounds.

This never ends. I think the line we draw is simple.

1. Is it LEGAL? If yes, then let's stand up for their ability to do that. If you think they shouldn't be able to, then change the law - just be warned that those who will help you are not going to stop where you do. They will keep coming and will be more successful as soon as they find a few hunters that take offense to somebody not as ethical as their personal ethics of hunting are and our membership will shrink further as we eliminate X, then Y, then Z and then start back up at the beginning of the alphabet and work our way down again.

In further response to the above, I would like to say that I have had multiple PHs in Africa tell me the CBL hunts are far more dangerous than wild lion hunts. They were not making a statement of ethics or which hunt is better, but just speaking from a danger/safety perspective. Given their profession, I would take what they say at face value and my interpretation would be that if they are that much more dangerous, how semi tame can they really be?

Finally, I want to say that it should not be up to others how we hunt unless we want to say that hunting is a privilege and not a right. If it is a right, they cannot take it away from us and I say we have just as much right to hunt as lions, bears and your neighbor's house cat. If it is a privilege, be prepared for the "tolerant" ones to take away our ability to hunt because the anti-hunting crowd is more efficient at painting a narrative and certainly better at dividing us up and picking us off than we are at converting them over.
I suppose we should support all hunting practices of the past that were legal at the time, regardless of the outcome? I highly doubt many hunters would defend the practice if they got to go the lion farms and participate in choosing and releasing their lion the week prior. This shouldn’t be called hunting. It should be called lion harvesting or lion shooting so a distinction can be made between it and hunting to reduce the dissension between hunters. This is a farming practice with a unique harvesting method is all it is. Lion cubs are an industry. Lion bones to China are an export. “Hunting” falls in between. Supposedly CBL has been cleaned up but it has already caused permanent damage to hunting. It was presented wrong from start “near Botswana border,” “takes pressure off wild lions,” “funding wild lion conservation.” What conservation value is there? If any money goes to wild lion conservation there has been no accounting of it and the extremely low current prices don’t allow any funding. The taking pressure off wild lion argument actually reduces the value of wild lions meaning less money to protect wild areas. There always seems to be a marketing angle to these hunts especially in prior years instead of just admitting what they were. I find it impossible to support if it’s called hunting. Call it farming or harvesting, my objection goes away.
 

WAB

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.. since when

Well my buddy fed a bunch of coworkers mountain lion without telling them. It was actually really good. A few were upset when they found they’d eaten cat but most thought it was funny.
 

John Wasmuth

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I’ve seen lion on the menu I believe it was Palm Beach Florida back in the mid 1980s, they had all kinds of “ exotic” game meat on the menu.
There are currently restaurants in Texas, very high end I might add, that serve African lion meat along with a multitude of other delicacies.
 

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Just one wisecrack: since when do you eat Lion meat?
I actually ate the sirloin from my lioness, which I figured I earned since she did actually charge at me multiple times. That was the last time I will eat lion. It had a strange flavor and odor, and I didn't finish it and even asked the wait staff to take it away because the smell was bothering me. I decided I don't want to eat any animal that will feed on carrion. But yes, I did eat lion. I suppose if it was kept in captivity and shot in captivity, then it would have likely not eaten rotten meat and may have tasted better. I will have to try again when I shoot a cheetah because they only eat fresh meat.

I suppose we should support all hunting practices of the past that were legal at the time, regardless of the outcome? I highly doubt many hunters would defend the practice if they got to go the lion farms and participate in choosing and releasing their lion the week prior. This shouldn’t be called hunting. It should be called lion harvesting or lion shooting so a distinction can be made between it and hunting to reduce the dissension between hunters. This is a farming practice with a unique harvesting method is all it is. Lion cubs are an industry. Lion bones to China are an export. “Hunting” falls in between. Supposedly CBL has been cleaned up but it has already caused permanent damage to hunting. It was presented wrong from start “near Botswana border,” “takes pressure off wild lions,” “funding wild lion conservation.” What conservation value is there? If any money goes to wild lion conservation there has been no accounting of it and the extremely low current prices don’t allow any funding. The taking pressure off wild lion argument actually reduces the value of wild lions meaning less money to protect wild areas. There always seems to be a marketing angle to these hunts especially in prior years instead of just admitting what they were. I find it impossible to support if it’s called hunting. Call it farming or harvesting, my objection goes away.

I know there are a lot of hunters that do just that in the USA but they use trail cams to identify the animals the week before deer season. I guess the main difference is that somebody else might come and get their deer, but they are doing something similar and probably wouldn't stop if they were the only ones hunting on the land where their chosen deer was.

Now, as for conservation value, let me say this. I hunted Arabian oryx in its native habitat. It was actually an SCI world first for my hunt and I am still quite proud of that hunt, spot and stalk with a bow in the sand dunes in the Arabian Peninsula. There were only three species on the property that could be hunted - the oryx and both sand and mountain gazelles. Those were not the only animals on the property though. The ranch was fenced to keep feral camels out as the camels will pull up plants by the root and eat the whole thing, leaving nothing for other animals. Once the camels were kept out, there was effective habitat for the oryx and gazelles, but also eagles, other birds of prey and normal birds, lizards, snakes and other wildlife. Even if the Oryx hunting has no conservation value for Oryx, what about all the other wildlife and the habitat it protects under the umbrella of the value of its hunting? Does a hunt only have conservation value if it saves exclusively that species or can one species being hunted save other species and let that give it conservation value?

Back to the lions, how many acres are devoted to CBL hunts? How many other animals live on those ranches? Do they have zero conservation value because some lions are getting bred and killed? All those lions are doing is replacing the revenue of photo tourists while at the same time reducing the ecological footprint because even a CBL hunt is going to generate more revenue than several photo tourists. If killing 2 rhinos saved 500 cheetahs, would we say that it has no conservation value for the rhino so it must be stopped? Many of these CBL ranches also have a lot of other wildlife that is expanding its range and populations and that is a good thing. I think the big picture here is that CBL is not detrimental to wild lions and that should be enough - especially when it is very easy to demonstrate the is conservation value in those hunts if you look at more than exclusively wild lions.

Most of the "damage" done by CBL is to the image of hunting in the eyes of people who also don't accept hunting wild lions or hunting in Africa by wealthy foreigners at all, regardless of the animals they are shooting. Hell, California wanted to ban the importation and possession of giraffe, sable and zebra trophies. Cecil was a wild lion. Those are hunted over bait. Wait, sorry, let me rephrase that with the lefty wording - "they are lured from their protected areas to be murdered by hunters with small penises to fulfill their homicidal tendencies and blood lust." But I am sure if we just change our hunting methods, they will be totally OK with hunting.
 

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