Hornady just announced bonded DGX

Discussion in 'Firearms & Ammunition' started by Ridgewalker, Oct 19, 2017.

  1. IvW

    IvW AH Legend

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    Cannot quite agree with that statement.

    Not sure how many Cape Buffalo and Elephant you have hunted or how many you have had to stop at close quarters but there is no such thing as overdo or overkill for that matter under these conditions. We don't want to "shoot through" charging Cape buffalo or Elephant, we want to kill them and stop them when we need to.

    "vehicles, body armor, all types of glass (laminated, safety glass, glass with wire in it, windscreen glass, and so on), drywall, brick, magazines, and the people wearing them"

    The above are not encountered in the African bush while hunting or at least are not shot at while doing so, so they have no relevance when selecting bullets for use when hunting in Africa. None of the above will charge you, with the sole purpose of killing you once you have wounded it due to inferior ammunition on the initial shot.

    You may have more experience than me with regards to shooting at man made things and man himself but when hunting African game, in particular DG, I would strongly suggest you use the best proven ammunition available. In this way you give yourself the best chance of cleanly killing whatever it is that you are hunting and avoiding getting yourself, your PH and the trackers into a follow up situation which often leads to serious injury or death to those involved.

    Only time will tell if the new Hornady DGX bonded bullet will make the cut, until such time as it has proven itself in the field, I cannot recommend them.
     
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  2. lockingblock

    lockingblock AH Senior Member

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    People killed a lot of elephants prior to the advent of the current gen bullets. There are videos on YouTube of elephant culls where the shooters were running FALs...as in 308 military ball...and dropping multiple elephants like rocks with head shots.

    Don’t get me wrong...best is best and I want the best when lives are at risk...but sometimes, I think we get a bit wrapped up in splitting hairs. Is DGX the absolute best? Likely no...as lead cores will always be more risky than a monolithic bullet like a Barnes X or similar.

    Still...a lot of dead critters got dead from lead and copper that wasn’t bonded.

    YMMV.
     
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  3. 375 Ruger Fan

    375 Ruger Fan AH ENABLER GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    https://www.swiftbullets.com/pages/bullets#break-away

    At about $5 per bullet, not sure many reloaders will buy these things.

    upload_2017-10-31_5-55-3.png

    upload_2017-10-31_5-57-37.png
     
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  4. IvW

    IvW AH Legend

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    Your Mileage May Vary for sure.

    As opposed to a visiting hunter, the people who culled elephants where professionals and knew exactly where to brain shoot an elephant. Many of the elephants were first darted/tranquilized and then shot. The Matriarch, was always the first to get shot.

    When a visiting hunter comes to hunt Cape Buffalo or Elephant it is a very good idea to use the best, if that means getting wrapped up and splitting hairs, then that needs to get done.

    All the top performing soft nosed/expanding and recommended bullets are still lead core design(bonded yes but still lead core). North Fork, Trophy bonded Bear claw, Swift A-frame and Rhino.

    As for solids, only mono metal(brass), preferably with a big meplat are the way to go now a days.

    We live in 2017 and there is no need to even consider old design or military ball ammo for hunting.

    Bring only the best proven in the field ammo you can find when you come to Africa, especially if DG is on the menu.
     

  5. IvW

    IvW AH Legend

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  6. ChrisG

    ChrisG AH Fanatic

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    Shooting through isn't the issue. I don't know as anything you listed is tougher than a buff or elephant. Hard targets and non-homogenous targets made of tissue and bone is an apples to oranges comparison. A .22-250 shooting soft points will screw up an engine block so bad the vehicle will never run, it will punch through 2 inches of ballistic laminated glass (ask me how I know) without blinking an eye, but it is really only effective on up to whitetail sized animals in the real world. To take on a 1,400 - 1,800 lb bovine or a 10,000 lb pachyderm with it is a death wish. A 6.5mm CEB 156 grain solid will punch THROUGH an elephant head. Sure, a 5.56mm, or literally anything (mercury droplet, corn kernal, frozen herring, etc.) moving at a similar speed, will sail through a half inch of ballistic fabric, be it kevlar or any one of the other weaves in use nowadays. Or even with a few shots, take out a brick wall. I would NEVER use one to try to take down a buff. But the trick isn't just to punch a hole. It is to kill quickly. Punching a pin hole into a large animal is going to be little comfort after it has mashed you into jelly, unless that round penetrated the brain or some other part of the circuitry.

    As to "Overdoing it" I would say, cheap (read "cup 'n core" bullets) work fine for the most part hunting domestically, but that's where they should stay in my opinion. I only use them to punch paper personally. Cheap bonded bullets aren't much better. I am not disparaging the DGX but a LOT of R&D goes in to making a bullet function as it is supposed to. Soldering a core to a jacket doesn't necessarily count as success although it is a step in the right direction. Swift, Rhino, Northfork and the like, really are the pinnacle or bullet technology these days and as such, they are the standard by which every other "premium bullet" is measured. When you are shooting at an animal, it's it nice to say that you did everything you could on your end to make sure the kill was quick and ethical. It gives hunters as a whole a bad name everytime someone wounds an animal because they can't shoot or they used a cheap bullet.

    When you are hunting large dangerous game, your bullet isn't just about taking an animal home to mount on your wall. It's the defining piece of equipment, the only one that actually connects with the animal and once it has left your gun, its the only piece of equipment you can no longer control. It would be prudent to make sure it is the absolute best that money can buy, because if it fails, it's not primarily your butt on the line, but your PH and your trackers might die or be maimed because a "good enough" bullet from the "can't see it from my house" school of engineering, was used. Not to mention the horrible feeling of never having recovered a wounded animal that dies a slow painful death or might potentially put others at risk. If you have the money to buy a $40,000 elephant hunt or a $20,000 Buff hunt, you can afford a $53 box of bullets to reload or even (if you had a .505 Gibbs) $400 for two boxes of loaded ammo. Just my $0.02
     

  7. ChrisG

    ChrisG AH Fanatic

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    Like George Grey in the Aberdares, 1911?
     

  8. 1dirthawker

    1dirthawker AH Enthusiast

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    i think things are so different now, than they were in the "golden age" of african hunting, it is hard to compare the two. now, it takes pretty serious money to hunt a single bull elephant. if you shoot it, you just bought it, whether brought to bag or not. back then, you'd go out, find another bull or 5 and shoot it/them. no real penalty for a wounded animal.

    same goes with all plains game, etc. so, having a great bullet going down range has value. in 1900, if one wounded a kudu with a inferior (cup and core) bullet, one would go out and shoot another one. no cost to the hunter. how many game animals were wounded back then? pondero taylor and john hunter both alluded to it in their books about visiting sportsmen shooting and wounding game, dangerous and non and having some run off, and the dangerous type being "sorted out".

    all game can be killed with inferior bullets, but if it fails to do its job in a proper manner, then it becomes a stunt instead of ethical hunting. the purposeful use of poor ammunition is sort of a shame. yes, you can get away with it sometimes , but should you? and what happens when you don't get away with it? especially on a dangerous animal like a lion, buff, etc. real possible injury, or death to a PH, tracker or even the client, all because a guy wants to save $1 or 2 dollars per bullet on his hunt.

    as someone said above, once the bullet leaves the barrel, nothing will change what happens next, good or bad. i think it wise to stack the odds in the hunters favor by using quality bullets.

    and as IvW said, it remains to be seen how the new bonded hornady bullet works. i hope it turns out to be a good bullet. nothing wrong with having more choices.

    my 2 cents
     

  9. Velo Dog

    Velo Dog AH ENABLER GOLD SUPPORTER SILVER SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    "...as lead cores will always be more risky than a monolithic bullet like a Barnes X or similar."

    Hello lockingblock,

    From my own personal experiences, combined with conversations between myself, other client type hunters and PHs who, generally are also keen "bullet diggers" like me, I respectfully disagree with you on the topic of expanding bullets.
    (For solids however, I agree that a flat nose bronze or similar material monolithic design, is as tough as one could ever want for heavy African game).

    In fact, regarding hollow point designs in general, I personally have experienced enough failures to expand, so as to call it a "pattern" of occasional military FMJ spitzer-like performance.
    It is therefore that I distrust any bullet which relies on a hollow point to function correctly.
    I definitely prefer dreaded "cup and core" designs, especially the bonded ones, such as Swift A-Frame (best of the best today) and Woodleigh (very reliable performer within it's velocity limitations), to name two of the several currently available.
    Furthermore, I wish Swift would make available blunt shaped A-Frames in various other calibers (such as they make in 500 grainers, specifically for the .470 NE).

    But, someone said that, "Differences of opinion are what make good horse races."

    Kind Regards,
    Velo Dog.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2017

  10. CTDolan

    CTDolan AH Elite

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    “I wish Swift would make available blunt shaped A-Frames in various other calibers (such as they make in 500 grainers, specifically for the .470 NE).“

    Same here but, if they’re only going to do one per weight/diameter, I suppose they need to appeal to the most common denominator.
     
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  11. Velo Dog

    Velo Dog AH ENABLER GOLD SUPPORTER SILVER SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    I'm the weirdo who, (other than for marketing purposes), can see no earthly reason whatsoever, for manufacturers to make sharp profile, aka: "spitzer shaped" hunting bullets, in any caliber of .40 and larger.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2017
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  12. DWB

    DWB AH Veteran

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    Come now IvW, there are few things that look as good as a proper RN soft! You can't hide from liking the way a Rhino looks in a round! These bloody spritzer shape bullets make a monster cartridge look iffy :) :)

    The .510 570gr Swift A-Frame is SEXY! Period!
     

  13. IvW

    IvW AH Legend

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    RN Softs do look good but unfortunately, old school.

    My wife is SEXY! As for the Swift A-frames: premium grade bullets!

    Personally I use Rhino bullets. They are locally available, affordable and the best bullet I have used in calibers 375 H&H and up.

    The 350 grn in 375 H&H is a superb Lion bullet and excellent on Cape Buffalo.

    The 380 grn in 375 H&H(if you can get it to 2200 fps in your rifle without any pressure issues), is exceptional on Cape Buffalo, almost turning the 375 H&H into a 400! My one 375 H&H in ZKK 602, is dedicated to this bullet.

    As for the big 570 grn in 500 Jeff, well this is the hammer of Thor! Absolutely the most devastating bullet I have ever used on Cape Buffalo. This bullet does not kill buffalo it flattens them. Once hit it switches everything off that a buff thought he had! I have built up so much confidence in this bullet as a stopping bullet that it is all I use when hunting and backing up on Cape buffalo. I have stopped numerous buffalo with this combination with the same one shot result every time!

    Some may be more SEXY than others but the proof is in the pudding! Much like finding the right wife!
    ;)
     

  14. TTundra

    TTundra AH Fanatic

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    IvW,

    Mind sharing your load info for that bad boy to work up to?

    much obliged,
     

  15. IvW

    IvW AH Legend

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    Unfortunately I am in South Africa and am using local powder which would not be availible over there.

    What I can share is.

    This rifle has a 24 inch barrel on a Brno ZKK 602 action and was custom built for somebody who past on and I bought the rifle. I had the stock changed to fit me and I also had the freebore increased to 3.3mm(space from the front of the loaded round/bullet to the lands).

    I only use Federal 215 large rifle magnum primers and Bertram brass. I load both the 570 grn Rhino controlled expansion bullet and their 570 grn brass meplat solid. I use 1 grain less powder for the solid to achieve the same velocity and POI.

    I have always been a supporter of heavy for caliber bullets travelling at a reasonable velocity.

    2100-2150 fps in double rifles is ok.

    With bolt actions this and the killing ability of the cartridge can be improved.

    I have found that the best killing speed for DG, is from 2200-2400 fps. Just bear in mind that you need to be able to handle the recoil but anything in that range is great. Anything over 2400 fps with these super bores becomes a bit of a challenge. Not so much in the recoil(pain) department but rather in the recovery time for the second shot if needed. The more the re-coil and higher the muzzle flip the more time is needed in order to cycle the bolt and aim again for the second shot if needed. Penetration also decreases after this velocity.

    I have loaded my 500 Jeff up to 2450 fps with this same bullet but that influences recovery time too much.

    The sweet spot for my rifle and bullet combination is 2300-2350 fps.

    Every rifle and shooter is different, when using a 570 grn premium grade bullet in the 500 Jeff, anything from 2200-2400 fps, as long as it does not generate excess pressure and you can handle the recoil will give you a devastatingly effective combination.

    However you must be able to hit comfortably what you are aiming at every time, otherwise step down in caliber until you find one that you can do that with.

    The biggest hammer of Thor will be of no use if the shot cannot be placed accurately, if it can the results are always spectacular to say the least.
     
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  16. Velo Dog

    Velo Dog AH ENABLER GOLD SUPPORTER SILVER SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    Hallo IvW,

    Your posts often make more "basic horse sense" to me than some other's do (admittedly to include some of my own blathering as well).
    Be that as it may, and just to be a smartass here, if Rhino or Swift (or name your premium bullet) made their excellent bonded core softs in .509" - .510" caliber, at 570 grains of both spitzer and round nose shapes, would you prefer one over the other in your .500 Jeffery and why ?
    Actually my question is only partly flippant in content, because I too own a .500 Jeffery and am honestly curious what someone who has shot a good number of animals with this caliber would prefer, round nose or spitzer (or, semi-spitzer while we're at it).
    I've not shot very many live animals with any caliber above .375 except one buffalo (.450 No2 NE) and Sitka blacktail deer (.45-70).
    But I have indeed shot perhaps 40 hooved, non-dangerous animals with the .375 H&H, using both pointed and blunt shaped softs alike on these.
    It's admittedly not very many critters, in the big picture of things but even so, I have noticed that heart / lung shot animals apparently succumb faster, from blunt shaped .37 caliber projectile hits than their similar sized brethren do from pointy shaped .37 caliber heart / lung hits.

    Respectfully,
    Velo Dog.
     

  17. lockingblock

    lockingblock AH Senior Member

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    On a side note, is there any data on steel jacketed bullets being hard on barrels?

    I ask because there was some anecdotal data from some precision rifle testing that showed serious barrel erosion from 5.56 steel jacketed rounds form Wolf/Barnaul which lead to degraded accuracy in short order.

    It's not enough data for form a conclusion, but it seems logical that steel jackets would be rough on their entry into the rifling which is where the bulk of wear is going to happen anyway...

    With DG bullets being "hard" intentionally...is there any data one way or another?
     

  18. tarbe

    tarbe AH ENABLER AH Legend

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    The steel does not touch the barrel. It is under gilding metal.
     
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  19. lockingblock

    lockingblock AH Senior Member

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    Right...but it is not as compressible and, at least in smaller calibers, causes more wear to the throat.

    DOD saw this with M855A1 when they rolled it out and it destroyed M-4 barrels inside 5K rounds...but there were some other issues there as well.

    I'm not saying it's bad...just curious as to any data on steel jackets and barrel wear.
     

  20. tarbe

    tarbe AH ENABLER AH Legend

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    I doubt you could quantify that effect in a hunting rifle that will likely see fewer than 500 rounds.

    And while the steel jacket material is hard, it it sitting on top of a .4" diameter chunk of maybe 25Bhn lead alloy. You think there might be some compressibility there? ;)

    I wouldn't give it a thought.
     
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