Holland and Holland 375 Magazine Rifle guidance/opinions

Discussion in '.375 & Up' started by cls, Sep 20, 2018.

  1. wesheltonj

    wesheltonj AH Elite

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    (1) At 7k, if it sounds too good to be true it usually is. If it's the "real deal," 7k and a recoil pad is nothing. (2) A agree with @Red Leg Europeans send back guns all the time for refurbishment and repairs unlike American who think it has to be untouched. (3) Like everyone else at 7k it would be worth the gamble if verified from H&H. If I knew if I was going to still be employed full time after the 1st of the year I would be interested too. And if I was to buy it, I would make the deal that it's shipped to the gunsmith of my choice for inspection and paid with a "sight draft" payable only upon passing inspection from said gunsmith. And my preference of said gunsmith would be H&H.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2018
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  2. rookhawk

    rookhawk AH Legend

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    I don’t care if the stock is repaired. I don’t care if the barrel is pitted. I don’t care how well it shoots. I don’t care if the barrel band has been replaced. I don’t care if the grip cap may be a replacement or refinished. I would ignore any or all of those if true.

    I can even get by ignoring the weird single square bridge that seems to be non-typical. (Square bridge, magazine cut out, stripper clip?)Also I can get over the fact it has Birmingham proofs which a H&H of that era should not have. (They proofed in London)

    $7000 all day long if they will guarantee ONE THING. Is the gun authentic?

    I will buy it with no condition report and no warranty right now for $7000 and take any and all problems it may have, but I question if it’s real. If they will guarantee it’s authenticity and send it to H&H NYC for authentication, I’d pay them the money.

    The gun is worth $16,000-$21,000 if it’s real. Plenty of fakes have been made over the years. Very cheap gun to counterfeit. Be very careful about its authenticity. VERY CAREFUL.
     
    PHOENIX PHIL and cls like this.

  3. rookhawk

    rookhawk AH Legend

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    I checked my records. Of the greater than 30,000 sequential serial numbers possible, there is only one small series of 849 guns that have no serial number records. 10000-10849.

    Inference: if you want to make a fake, please make sure to keep it within that range so nothing shows up in the H&H ledger that disagrees with your rifles’ specs

    Not saying it’s fake, I’m just saying that if you were to make a fake, you’d give it the serial number this one has.
     
    cls likes this.

  4. rookhawk

    rookhawk AH Legend

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    I don’t like that the bolt, safety flag, and bolt release all have serial number 36, but the gun has a serial number ending in 69. Not a showstopper, nor is the Birmingham nitro proof...I just don’t like the ambiguity it creates.
     
    cls likes this.

  5. sierraone

    sierraone AH ENABLER SILVER SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    Now for the big question! Who in the U.S. or Canada can authenticate it, or does it have to go to London?

    Is H&H in Dallas just sales people? Or is there an H&H gunsmith there?
     

  6. rookhawk

    rookhawk AH Legend

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    Guy at H&H in New York can do it. You just need an expert to identify its authenticity, you couldn’t care less what a gunsmith has to say about the gun at $7000.

    No hole in the barrel? Shoots backwards? Parts not original? Was originally chambered in 240 Apex? Wrong bluing? New grip cap? NOTHING MATTERS AT $7000. Gunsmith inspections are appropriate if you’re paying $20,000+ for this dodgy looking gun.

    You cannot get screwed on this gun at $7000 if it’s real. That’s the only consideration I would make/take on it to decide what to do. $7000 doesn’t get you a cogswell & harrison .375 with scope and accessories these days. Hell, you’d spend $7000 on a Dakota.
     

  7. rookhawk

    rookhawk AH Legend

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    I’d see if the seller goes for this: here is a bill of sale. Here is $3500. We’ll ship it to the states to H&H to prove it’s real. When it is real, I give you another $3500. If it’s fake, you either let me keep it at $3500 or you give my $3500 back.

    I would pay $3500 for that gun as a fake. For $4000 all-in I’d have a decent British made .375 recently refinished with any deceptive statements polished off, worse case scenario.
     
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  8. cls

    cls AH Fanatic

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    Thank you for the insight, I will let you all know how it goes.
     

  9. spike.t

    spike.t AH ENABLER SPONSOR Since 2013 AH Ambassador

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    Yup so correct :D Beers:
     

  10. WAB

    WAB AH Fanatic

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    Totally agree with you. It is expected that a London best go back to the maker regularly for tuning, repair and refurbishment. Why would you not want your 100 year old weapon looking and functioning as well as it did the first day it went afield.

    A good friend has spent the last 30 years with Holland & Holland. I can tell you that the folks in the London trade scratch their heads at this odd American obsession. On the other hand they cringe at what some of our shade tree gunsmiths have done to them.

    Let’s all agree that the best option is to send me the sellers contact info, I will buy the rifle once it’s providence is verified, and have it properly restored by its maker. Won’t we all be happier with that outcome?
     

  11. Tom Leoni

    Tom Leoni AH Senior Member

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    At $7k this is a no-brainer. I wouldn't care a whit about the buttpad--if the bore is in OK+ condition and the stock has no cracks, a between-the-wars H&H chambered for one of the (if not the) most useful caliber in the world, with plenty factory ammo available in every continent... for $7k? Seriously, buddy, if you let this get away you'll be kicking yourself.

    I sweated a similar decision a while ago for the rifle on my avatar--also an H&H and also a .375 mag (flanged), but nowhere near as tempting a deal as yours $$$-wise. As soon as I decided in the affirmative, I never looked back and I don't have an ounce of buyer's remorse. Get it and also don't look back. And if you get tired of it, look me up and I'll buy it from you for $7k American. Yes, it's THAT good.

    Oh, and a big +1 on the idea that a hunting rifle is not a virgin maiden. Use it, and when needed, have it refurbished by good-name gunsmiths. That's what God intended when he created fine sporting firearms.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2018
    Moosemind, WAB, Roan and 3 others like this.

  12. John A Flaws

    John A Flaws AH Senior Member

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    I have been meaning to respond to this conversation. I bought a Holland and Holland 375 magnum almost 15 years ago now. I paid 9600.00 at that time so I can assure you 7k for a Holland 375 is a very good price. I do not believe you will find a Holland chambered in 375 magnum. If you pass on this rifle you may someday live to regret the decision.

    I own a few British prewar rifles and I can guarantee some of them have been refinished. As previously discussed it was common for owners of English guns to return them for re-blacking of the metal and oiling of the stocks. As long as the work on an English rifle is done by a true professional the value should never be hurt. I have sent some of my rifles to JJ Perodeau for stock refinishing, re-blacking, and scope mounting without ever being worried about value loss. In fact JJ made new Holland and Holland style rings for my 375 so I could mount a modern scope to the rifle.

    You can buy a Best London Silver's recoil pad from Connecticut Shotgun for 75 dollars. I hope this will be helpful.

    DSC_0205 (1).JPG DSC_0205.JPG DSC_0206 (1).JPG DSC_0206.JPG DSC_0207 (1).JPG DSC_0207.JPG DSC_0208 (1).JPG DSC_0208.JPG DSC_0209 (1).JPG DSC_0209.JPG DSC_0210 (1).JPG DSC_0210.JPG
     

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    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 26, 2018

  13. cls

    cls AH Fanatic

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    Thanks, that's a great looking rifle. I am still waiting for the owner to return from his moose hunt and to hear back from Holland and Holland.
     

  14. Tokoloshe Safaris

    Tokoloshe Safaris SPONSOR Since 2017 AH Enthusiast

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    I would really like to hear how this story ends. I do not know how much of Holland & Hollands records still exist (darned old germans) but not only would it be great to know who owned it, sometimes you really get lucky. All & all it looks great and I would love to have it!
     

  15. cls

    cls AH Fanatic

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    Good day all, Thank you all for your help and opinions.
    Quick update on the 375. I am still on the quest for more information on this particular fire arm as I don't want to shell out 7K USD for a fake or one that is made up of parts from multiple rifles. The owner is holding on to it for me until I do a little more research. I have not heard back from Holland and Holland so I was wondering if any of you would happen to have a contact there that I may be able to contact, either in England or US? Here is one more picture that I found interesting and may be a clue to its history.
    A H&H label and a W.J. Jeffery an Co. Label on the inside of the rifle case...…. hmmm
    1195.jpg
     

  16. WAB

    WAB AH Fanatic

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    I have a friend who retired from H&H after 30+ years at their London shooting grounds. He still works there part time. I’ll drop him a note and see if he can provide some advice.
     
    cls likes this.

  17. WAB

    WAB AH Fanatic

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    I must say, it does not look like that case was made for that rifle. H&H cases fit like a glove. The fit of the case may indicate why the butt pad failed where it did when the rubber degraded.
     

  18. WAB

    WAB AH Fanatic

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    All right, I spoke to my friend at H&H. He thinks your best bet is to call the gun room in London and ask for Alan Uttermark. He should be able to help you out. You may wait forever on a written reply. Message me privately if you want to discuss further.
     

  19. cls

    cls AH Fanatic

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    Thank you for the follow up. I will give that a try, no answer to any of my emails.
     

  20. cls

    cls AH Fanatic

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    Quick update on the search, I have been corresponding with Alan at H&H and his last e-mail this morning was "it seems like an H&H but its the serial number that is throwing us". I sent them more pictures of the action with the other numbers. It has been an interesting exercise and I still haven't given up on this. Thanks to you all for your input.
     
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