History and comparison of the 35 Whelen to the 30-06 and 375 H&H

[Forrest Halley]

However, 30-06 bridges the cultural gap! on both sides of the pond!
I can not find similar european rifle caliber accepted in US. But pistol caliber 9x19 (european), is accepted on both continents - masivelly. (not a rifle caliber, but...)

Because it won the bloody war! Twice!

7.92X57...but when the cheap ammunition dried up, the K98's got rechambered. We're a bit rebellious over here.

Maybe 7x57 or 6.5x55?

 

[mark-hunter]

Because it won the bloody war! Twice!

I understand this view.
But, for example in ww2, 7.62x54R also had something to do with winning the war. (and to be honest, probably a better part in europan war theatar.) But soviets never pushed to international hunting market. Probably not being interested,
In ww1, and ww2, 303 enfield, helped win the war etc.

But nevertheless, US envolvement in world conflicts led to overall popularity of 30-06. Thats fact. Just as loosing the wars led to demise of popularity of german calibers such as 8x57, very late rise of popularity of 8x68, etc
7x57 is obsolete by now, most of europen factories do not make rifles in 7x57. (my guess - they dont want to make 7x57 to compete with their own 7x64 - with better ballistic, which they keep to produce, so it possibly becomes non profitable). 7x57 will be produced in a small classic rifle market (like rigby) for traditional market, and traditional sentiment, only.

 

[Forrest Halley]

I understand this view.
But, for example in ww2, 7.62x54R also had something to do with winning the war. (and to be honest, probably a better part in europan war theatar.) But soviets never pushed to international hunting market. Probably not being interested,
In ww1, and ww2, 303 enfield, helped win the war etc.

But nevertheless, US envolvement in world conflicts led to overall popularity of 30-06. Thats fact. Just as loosing the wars led to demise of popularity of german calibers such as 8x57, very late rise of popularity of 8x68, etc
7x57 is obsolete by now, most of europen factories do not make rifles in 7x57. (my guess - they dont want to make 7x57 to compete with their own 7x64 - with better ballistic, which they keep to produce, so it possibly becomes non profitable). 7x57 will be produced in a small classic rifle market (like rigby) for traditional market, and traditional sentiment, only.

Okay so we can give credit to the 7.62x54R and .303 for starting the fight against the axis powers, but took the .30-06 to finish it. Both times. People like winners, not rimmed rifle cartridges that couldn't quite measure up on muzzle energy.

 

[mark-hunter]

Hahaa, yes, that one way of looking at it. You may just have a point. in order not to get into total offtopic lets leave it at that!

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Okay so we can give credit to the 7.62x54R and .303 for starting the fight against the axis powers, but took the .30-06 to finish it. Both times. People like winners, not rimmed rifle cartridges that couldn't quite measure up on muzzle energy.

@Forrest Halley
The good old 303 and the 7.62x54R killed more combatants than the ought six. The ought six only came along near the middle if both conflicts.
All 3 are good hunting cartridges in their own right along with bot the 7 and 8mmx57.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I was more focused to european ammo factories like: sako, rws, geco, ppu, s&b, not producing 35whelen.. But what lead me to this question was more because someone earlier mentioned the necessity for handloading for 35 whelen. (?!) Knowing that european factories dont make this cartridge, I asked this question.

Being quoted for the same, third time in a row, I wonder who will qoute me next?

@mark-hunter.
The only reason the Whelen was mentioned as a reloaders cartridge is, that like a few older cartridges they are under loaded by most companies and benefits from reloading.
Bob.
True European countries don't load the Whelen but not many US companies load European cartridges either.
Bob

 

[mark-hunter]

Thanks Bob,
We have established well those facts, so far!

 

[hawkeyesatx]

Usually, here in the States, if you have a cartridge that is underpowered by the establishment, it means it would compete with 1 or more darlings that have been selling very well, and they don’t want many people to switch over so they can continue to sell, in great numbers.
For decades now, the .30-06 in factory loading has been pathetic in performance. The 180 gr bullets are usually underperforming even .308 180 gr standards! The .308 and the .270 Win are, and have been loaded more to their potential, for some odd reason.
If the .35 Whelen is loaded to it’s potential, then it would come into direct competition with the.338 Win Mag, and also with the .375 Ruger. Do you think they want the sales of those 2 to go down?
Here’s a little tidbit for everyone as well.
The firearms companies cut costs while making standard length (.30-06, 7mm Rem Mag, .300 Win Mag, .338 Win Mag) rifle actions and heat treat them all to Standard Length Magnum tolerances.
Upping the 35 Whelen pressures to 62k psi isn’t as dangerous as it may seem. Plus, on another sight, I have been talking to other hunters that have 35 Whelen’s, and they’ve upped their loads as well, and are getting just slightly higher pressure, but higher velocities, mainly because, since you go over the .323 cal, having a much bigger bore in .358 and bigger, there isn’t as much tension in the barrel.

Here’s an analogy to explain.

Which pipe has less pressure to push water through it?

A 1/4 inch pipe, or a 1 inch pipe?

If you said a 1 inch pipe has less pressure, you would be correct.
Why? Because of a bigger hole, and less surface tension.
Same kind of principle goes for medium bores, and large bores.

Bob is right about using Hodgdon CFE223 powder in the .35 Whelen.
It ups its performance considerably, and adds new life to a great old cartridge. Plus, it won’t rattle your fillings loose like the Magnum cartridges do.
Even the grand old ‘06 has been given new life from powders like StaBall 6.5 and RL-26. Shooting 180gr and heavier bullets into .300 H&H velocities.


Hawk

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Usually, here in the States, if you have a cartridge that is underpowered by the establishment, it means it would compete with 1 or more darlings that have been selling very well, and they don’t want many people to switch over so they can continue to sell, in great numbers.
For decades now, the .30-06 in factory loading has been pathetic in performance. The 180 gr bullets are usually underperforming even .308 180 gr standards! The .308 and the .270 Win are, and have been loaded more to their potential, for some odd reason.
If the .35 Whelen is loaded to it’s potential, then it would come into direct competition with the.338 Win Mag, and also with the .375 Ruger. Do you think they want the sales of those 2 to go down?
Here’s a little tidbit for everyone as well.
The firearms companies cut costs while making standard length (.30-06, 7mm Rem Mag, .300 Win Mag, .338 Win Mag) rifle actions and heat treat them all to Standard Length Magnum tolerances.
Upping the 35 Whelen pressures to 62k psi isn’t as dangerous as it may seem. Plus, on another sight, I have been talking to other hunters that have 35 Whelen’s, and they’ve upped their loads as well, and are getting just slightly higher pressure, but higher velocities, mainly because, since you go over the .323 cal, having a much bigger bore in .358 and bigger, there isn’t as much tension in the barrel.

Here’s an analogy to explain.

Which pipe has less pressure to push water through it?

A 1/4 inch pipe, or a 1 inch pipe?

If you said a 1 inch pipe has less pressure, you would be correct.
Why? Because of a bigger hole, and less surface tension.
Same kind of principle goes for medium bores, and large bores.

Bob is right about using Hodgdon CFE223 powder in the .35 Whelen.
It ups its performance considerably, and adds new life to a great old cartridge. Plus, it won’t rattle your fillings loose like the Magnum cartridges do.
Even the grand old ‘06 has been given new life from powders like StaBall 6.5 and RL-26. Shooting 180gr and heavier bullets into .300 H&H velocities.


Hawk

@hawkeyesatx
As @Badboymelvin says it won't belt you out from under your beanie.
That's what I love about the Whelen,when loaded properly it is a great cartridge that gives the 325WSM, 338mag and even some 300 mags a run for their money on power and trajectory out to sane hunting distances.
In the Whelen a 225gn shoots flatter than a 150gn SST loaded to 2,900fps out to 400 yards. 21 inch drop compared to 24 for the 308. That is despite both being started at the same muzzle velocity. Top that off with 2,000fpe of remaining energy and you have a flat shooting hard hitting 400 yard capable cartridge. The 250 @ 400 yards drops 25 inches.
Bob

 

[Forrest Halley]

@Forrest Halley
The good old 303 and the 7.62x54R killed more combatants than the ought six. The ought six only came along near the middle if both conflicts.
All 3 are good hunting cartridges in their own right along with bot the 7 and 8mmx57.
Bob

Killed more innocent people too...

I have strangely enough hunted with all three. The .30-06 was my favorite, but only because I had so many rifles to choose from. I was young and impressionable. I literally drew my hunting weapon out of a hat and would use it until I killed something then shake and draw a new one. It was a fun time.

 

[Lee M]

Usually, here in the States, if you have a cartridge that is underpowered by the establishment, it means it would compete with 1 or more darlings that have been selling very well, and they don’t want many people to switch over so they can continue to sell, in great numbers.
For decades now, the .30-06 in factory loading has been pathetic in performance. The 180 gr bullets are usually underperforming even .308 180 gr standards! The .308 and the .270 Win are, and have been loaded more to their potential, for some odd reason.
If the .35 Whelen is loaded to it’s potential, then it would come into direct competition with the.338 Win Mag, and also with the .375 Ruger. Do you think they want the sales of those 2 to go down?
Here’s a little tidbit for everyone as well.
The firearms companies cut costs while making standard length (.30-06, 7mm Rem Mag, .300 Win Mag, .338 Win Mag) rifle actions and heat treat them all to Standard Length Magnum tolerances.
Upping the 35 Whelen pressures to 62k psi isn’t as dangerous as it may seem. Plus, on another sight, I have been talking to other hunters that have 35 Whelen’s, and they’ve upped their loads as well, and are getting just slightly higher pressure, but higher velocities, mainly because, since you go over the .323 cal, having a much bigger bore in .358 and bigger, there isn’t as much tension in the barrel.

Here’s an analogy to explain.

Which pipe has less pressure to push water through it?

A 1/4 inch pipe, or a 1 inch pipe?

If you said a 1 inch pipe has less pressure, you would be correct.
Why? Because of a bigger hole, and less surface tension.
Same kind of principle goes for medium bores, and large bores.

Bob is right about using Hodgdon CFE223 powder in the .35 Whelen.
It ups its performance considerably, and adds new life to a great old cartridge. Plus, it won’t rattle your fillings loose like the Magnum cartridges do.
Even the grand old ‘06 has been given new life from powders like StaBall 6.5 and RL-26. Shooting 180gr and heavier bullets into .300 H&H velocities.


Hawk

What brand of factory ammo that has 180 grain ammo for the 30.06 and the .308 loads the .308 hotter? Don’t know that I’ve seen this. Curious for a good factory hunting load hunting load for my .308.

I love the passion you and Bob have for the 35 Whelen and agree it is an under appreciated and very capable caliber. I also like it as it is simply different and unique. I like underdogs and things that aren’t popular. Probably why my first purchased deer rifle with my money was a .280 rem. My first handed down deer rifle was a 35 REM from my grandfather (i still love it). So i do like the Whelen, even if it is simply a chubby 30.06. It’s way more than you need for deer sized game but moves into the bigger medium sized game well. But i can’t take the leap to put it in the class of .338 win mag or .375 Ruger if you are going to compare to the hand loaded potential of those two cartridges with modern powder. It’s simply a matter of case capacity and in the case of the .338 also BC and SD.

But all of us at AH are fortunate to have so many passionate members with favorite calibers. It’s makes this forum so fun to be on.

Bob - you are in a class of your own though with your love of a single caliber long live the .243, i mean the 35 Whelen

 

[hawkeyesatx]

What brand of factory ammo that has 180 grain ammo for the 30.06 and the .308 loads the .308 hotter? Don’t know that I’ve seen this. Curious for a good factory hunting load hunting load for my .308.

I love the passion you and Bob have for the 35 Whelen and agree it is an under appreciated and very capable caliber. I also like it as it is simply different and unique. I like underdogs and things that aren’t popular. Probably why my first purchased deer rifle with my money was a .280 rem. My first handed down deer rifle was a 35 REM from my grandfather (i still love it). So i do like the Whelen, even if it is simply a chubby 30.06. It’s way more than you need for deer sized game but moves into the bigger medium sized game well. But i can’t take the leap to put it in the class of .338 win mag or .375 Ruger if you are going to compare to the hand loaded potential of those two cartridges with modern powder. It’s simply a matter of case capacity and in the case of the .338 also BC and SD.

But all of us at AH are fortunate to have so many passionate members with favorite calibers. It’s makes this forum so fun to be on.

Bob - you are in a class of your own though with your love of a single caliber long live the .243, i mean the 35 Whelen

The gunscribes throughout the years have published in the various hunting and shooting magazine’s chronographed several .30-06 and .308 factory loads.
One comes to mind, authored by Mike Venturino, and the article was Quarter Mile Sporters.
He was out at the ranch where he was doing 440 yd shooting at a small car sized white paper target, and the rounds he was using were as follows: .243 (Bob’s Personal Favorite), .25-06, .270, .308, and the .30-06.
To his way of thinking, he had his thoughts as to which ones would be flat shooters. Well, on one, and I was surprised as well, the .30-06 velocities were lackluster, to say the least. The shots averaged 25 to 50 fps slower than the .308 shots, and also shot lower than the .308!
The winners of that exhibition were the .270, .243, .25-06, and the .308.
The .25-06 had a wider group than the others, except for the .30-06, and it strung its groups up and down.
Now, Mike did say that hand loading will make every one better, and he was correct. When the .30-06 was loaded properly, it outshone the .308, and had just slightly more drop than the .270!

Now, the Magnum cartridges can be improved as well, but not to the extent that the regular cartridges have improved in velocity.

Bob had shown me here on AH, that a properly loaded 35 Whelen can get over 4000 ft-lbs of muzzle energy. That’s with the 225 gr Accubond going close to 2900 fps. Of course I did my homework, and conferred with other friends on another forum, and lo and behold, Bob was correct.
I can also say, that by using StaBall 6.5, you can get a 212 gr Hornady ELD-X up to 2800 fps, and that was by careful, and methodical hand loading, and safely experimenting.


Hawk

 

[Forrest Halley]

I'll go on record with saying we the people have failed the .30-06. We have tolerated the TRASH that has come out in the factory loadings for decades. Seriously why be happy with a loading that's 4 MOA at 100 yards? Yes it will kill a deer and more, but I really think it allows the manufacturer to get away with less quality and cheaper components. The answer is because we the people on the whole are not the marksmen we were eighty years ago. There is nothing wrong with the .30-06, but there's a weakness in the world for sure.