GMX vs. TSX/TTSX?

[Jwg223]

I'm not certain why broken petals are such a concern to many. Typically all it means is the bullet tumbled inside the animal while still going at relatively high speed. Bend metal one way when the bullet expands and then the other when it tumbles and changes direction and the petal/petals sheer off. It's typically no test of bullet strength of all but rather just the path the bullet took. I've seen everything from one petal to all petals missing with all three of mono metals mentioned. They all had one thing in common....they came from a dead animal! We've been brainwashed into believing that only perfect mushrooms are acceptable. That's not always the case depending on the path the bullet takes.

I did some testing with the 70gr GMX. I found that it fragmented and would tumble---just like you say. The problem was/is, for me, that this means it takes an erratic path. In fact, I had trouble recovering the slugs for just this reason, as they would veer out of the line of water-filled milk-jugs I had. This bothers me because if it can miss a 8" milk-jug 10" into the stack or so,what vital structure might it miss on an animal on a quartering shot, etc? Likely it would be fine, but I like bullets that "track true". I have found that lead-core bullets which lose mass typically retain a decently straight track. The mono-metals, if they lose much integrity at all, in my experience just testing in various media, tend to veer badly. Take it FWIW, and I'd go with live animal over water/etc. any day, but it's something that gave me pause.

 

[sheephunterab]

"Tracking" during and after expansion takes in a million variables. You could never duplicate the same "track" twice. Angle of entry, dirt on the hide, bone, cartilage all effect a bullet's path. The only consistent path is from the barrel to the animal. Once it strikes the animal all bets are off. You may be right that the integrity of mono metals does cause them to deviate off a straight track more than a cup and core that is shedding mass but one thing that is universally agreed upon about mono metals is that they penetrate deep and typically result is pass throughs...kinda pouring water on your theory. When shooting into a more consistent medium like ballistic gel, I've never noticed huge deviations and I've seen enough pass throughs on animals and found enough far side bullets to doubt that major direction changes are common. Water jugs are fun to shoot but they are a poor medium for testing terminal performance.

 

[Jwg223]

"Tracking" during and after expansion takes in a million variables. You could never duplicate the same "track" twice. Angle of entry, dirt on the hide, bone, cartilage all effect a bullet's path. The only consistent path is from the barrel to the animal. Once it strikes the animal all bets are off. You may be right that the integrity of mono metals does cause them to deviate off a straight track more than a cup and core that is shedding mass but one thing that is universally agreed upon about mono metals is that they penetrate deep and typically result is pass throughs...kinda pouring water on your theory. When shooting into a more consistent medium like ballistic gel, I've never noticed huge deviations and I've seen enough pass throughs on animals and found enough far side bullets to doubt that major direction changes are common. Water jugs are fun to shoot but they are a poor medium for testing terminal performance.

I don't disagree. I would note, though, that the 70gr .223 GMX's I tested seem to be an aberration. At 100 yards, they shed all petals and tumbled erratically.

Another question I have for you, as someone who shoots lots of living stuff...have you ever seen a GMX/TSX "plug" and pencil through, when the shot was certainly close enough that it should have opened? Say, if it hit a rib or something close to the surface on entry? The GMX in 5.56 is a hollowpoint, not tipped, which is why I ask.

 

[sheephunterab]

You would never know if a bullet "penciled" through as you wouldn't recover the bullet. I can't see how the tip would plug. Forcing any material into it would initiate expansion. That's the point of the hole. I have seen a couple recovered mono metals where expansion did not occur even though the range was well within suitable impact velocities and these always confuse me. If they don't expand one would think they would pass through with ease. I suspect something happened that reduced velocity. All I've heard about have been handloads. Or perhaps they tumbled in the air due to striking an obstruction and didn't hit point first. I'm not sure.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

You would never know if a bullet "penciled" through as you wouldn't recover the bullet. I can't see how the tip would plug. Forcing any material into it would initiate expansion. That's the point of the hole. I have seen a couple recovered mono metals where expansion did not occur even though the range was well within suitable impact velocities and these always confuse me. If they don't expand one would think they would pass through with ease. I suspect something happened that reduced velocity. All I've heard about have been handloads. Or perhaps they tumbled in the air due to striking an obstruction and didn't hit point first. I'm not sure.

I've seen pictures of recovered TSX/TTSX that failed to expand. Not sure how these were recovered as I'd have to believe they passed thru the animals. One theory for the failure to expand is the bullet hits the animal with the tip away from the line of travel, I think of it as a wobbling football. Thus the tip is off center and hits such that not only does expansion not occur it has some cases I've seen closed the hollow point on a TSX.

In another case you could see one of the petals had started to peel off on a TTSX. The theory there was the same but not the tip is contacting somewhat from the side shearing it off but causing one of the petals to start opening.

But internet theories abound, so who knows.

 

[sheephunterab]

I wouldn't disagree with those theories but there must be some violent tumbling inside the animal to stop the unexpanded bullet!

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

I wouldn't disagree with those theories but there must be some violent tumbling inside the animal to stop the unexpanded bullet!

I get your line of thinking there, makes sense. But I also had one PH tell me that he has seen a caliber sized hole at entry and another caliber sized hole on exit which sounds like it penciled through.

Whatever the case this is why I prefer the North Forks and their virtual terminal ballistic twin the A-Frames. I don't think I've ever heard of a exposed lead tipped bullet failing to expand.

 

[Jwg223]

I wouldn't disagree with those theories but there must be some violent tumbling inside the animal to stop the unexpanded bullet!

Unexpanded boat-tails like the TSX that do not fragment will typically tumble AT LEAST once within the chest-cavity of even a small white-tail. In larger animals, you may well get 2 yaw cycles.

 

[sheephunterab]

There is enough stretch in hide to make measuring a calibre-sized hole impossible. It's possible the very odd unexpanded bullet goes right through but I'd say tales of it are highly exaggerated. Having run and been party to the running of hundreds of mono metals through animals I've never seen one fail to expand. I suspect it's as common as a tough bullet like a North Fork or A-Frame blowing to pieces. Sure it happens but really not something to worry about.

 

[Jwg223]

There is enough stretch in hide to make measuring a calibre-sized hole impossible. It's possible the very odd unexpanded bullet goes right through but I'd say tales of it are highly exaggerated. Having run and been party to the running of hundreds of mono metals through animals I've never seen one fail to expand. I suspect it's as common as a tough bullet like a North Fork or A-Frame blowing to pieces. Sure it happens but really not something to worry about.

Agree Re: hide stretch. Even my "soft" little White Tail had identical entrance/exits, using RA556B, and I know for a FACT it expanded with that blunt tip and at 25 yards and looking at what it did internally.

 

[sheephunterab]

Unexpanded boat-tails like the TSX that do not fragment will typically tumble AT LEAST once within the chest-cavity of even a small white-tail. In larger animals, you may well get 2 yaw cycles.

That would kind of put the penciling through theory to rest then. I'm not certain you can say with any certainty what a bullet will do inside an animal but I do know that it would take a lot to stop a high velocity unexpanded bullet inside an animal. I suspect tissue damage would be extensive.

 

[Jwg223]

That would kind of put the penciling through theory to rest then. I'm not certain you can say with any certainty what a bullet will do inside an animal but I do know that it would take a lot to stop a high velocity unexpanded bullet inside an animal. I suspect tissue damage would be extensive.

I base this off of what they do in 10% ballistic gelatin.

 

[sheephunterab]

You've had unexpanded TSX in Gelatin? I've seen many expanded bullets end up 180 degrees in gel but never seen one actually totally tumble. With High speed video you can actually see the 180 degree tumble caused by stretch in the gel, not typically the bullet really tumbling. Inside the muscles, bones, voids, organs of an animal, I'd say anything is possible and nothing is typical.

 

[Jwg223]

You've had unexpanded TSX in Gelatin? I've seen many expanded bullets end up 180 degrees in gel but never seen one actually totally tumble. With High speed video you can actually see the 180 degree tumble caused by stretch in the gel, not typically the bullet really tumbling. Inside the muscles, bones, voids, organs of an animal, I'd say anything is possible and nothing is typical.

Drop it below the expansion threshold, and yes.

I sent this gentleman some, and he tested it for me:

*I would note that I think his gel is a bit "soft"/warm perhaps, as other rounds have also under-expanded vs. what I know them to do in actual lab settings by ATK, etc.

 

[sheephunterab]

That 180 degree position of the bullet is exactly what I was talking about above and many confuse it with tumbling but it's actually the bullet stretching the gel as it comes to rest and then the gel springing back, turning the bullet. With gel being such a consistent medium it's ideal for testing expansion but it's a poor indicator of what a bullet does inside an animal because there is nothing consistent about an animal's insides. I have no doubt true tumbling can occur inside an animal......

 

[Jwg223]

That 180 degree position of the bullet is exactly what I was talking about above and many confuse it with tumbling but it's actually the bullet stretching the gel as it comes to rest and then the gel springing back, turning the bullet. With gel being such a consistent medium it's ideal for testing expansion but it's a poor indicator of what a bullet does inside an animal because there is nothing consistent about an animal's insides. I have no doubt true tumbling can occur inside an animal......

Tumbling occurs in gel. I can find you actual slow-motion showing the bullet, if you like, but it won't be a TSX, it will be another boat-tail, M855, and it frags. Obviously TSX won't fragment like this.

You can see that if M855 did not lose integrity at the cannelure, it would have end-over-ended, like the TSX in the above video did.


That said, this is exactly why I wanted opinions/data from this forum. Gel ain't animals!

 

[sheephunterab]

I don't doubt it occasionally happens as there are no absolutes with bullets but I'd say in the vast majority of cases, a 180 degree bullet in gel is a result of gel stretch.

 

[Divernhunter]

When I clean I use wipe-out first then follow with Sweets or CR-10 or Butches bore shine. The combo of 2 different cleaners does even a better job. Doing this to a bore that has had regular jacketed bullets(gilding metal) before shooting Barnes/Swift(pure copper) has made fouling not a problem and they tend to be more accurate.

 

[Desert Dog]

I have loaded the TSX, TTSX, LRX, and GMX extensively.

Being that Californians were the first to "embrace" copper bullets (not by choice), I have been shooting them since they were first deemed "condor safe", lol. Everyone was reluctant at first, refusing to believe that these "hippie" bullets could outperform an A-frame or a tried-and-true Partition. But let me tell you, California did hunters a favor by driving advancements in the lead-free bullet market. These bullets are a big step up from what we used before. Suddenly a hunter could step down a couple bullet weights, and get less recoil and better ballistics while hitting the target just as hard as the heavy lead.

Although the Barnes takes a little more load development to get right, it is well worth the extra effort IMO. For the exception of 1 rifle out of about 20 or so that I load for, the TTSX and LRX bullets are consistantly the most accurate than the GMX or E-tip bullets. I have one 30-06 M70 supergrade that really likes the 165 gr GMX better than the Barnes - but that is the only barrel I have that prefers the Hornady.

Also, in water jug tests (unscientific), I have noticed that the GMX opens up less at lower velocities and fragments more at higher velocities than the TTSX and LRX. I have hunted with both bullets, achieved clean kills, and always get complete pass-throughs on typical size game. Go with what your gun likes the most. Reloading really makes the copper bullets shine, to a MUCH larger degree than most lead bullets.

If you do not reload, commercial ammo for the TTSX (Barnes Vortex) is superior to the commercial ammo for the GMX (superformance).

The Barnes does require more barrel maint than the GMX, in my opinion. I use Boretech Eliminator to remove copper fouling after hunting season, and copper removal seems to go on forever after a season shooting the Barnes. But, It is a small price to pay for an almost perfect bullet.

 

[Jwg223]

I have loaded the TSX, TTSX, LRX, and GMX extensively.

Being that Californians were the first to "embrace" copper bullets (not by choice), I have been shooting them since they were first deemed "condor safe", lol. Everyone was reluctant at first, refusing to believe that these "hippie" bullets could outperform an A-frame or a tried-and-true Partition. But let me tell you, California did hunters a favor by driving advancements in the lead-free bullet market. These bullets are a big step up from what we used before. Suddenly a hunter could step down a couple bullet weights, and get less recoil and better ballistics while hitting the target just as hard as the heavy lead.

Although the Barnes takes a little more load development to get right, it is well worth the extra effort IMO. For the exception of 1 rifle out of about 20 or so that I load for, the TTSX and LRX bullets are consistantly the most accurate than the GMX or E-tip bullets. I have one 30-06 M70 supergrade that really likes the 165 gr GMX better than the Barnes - but that is the only barrel I have that prefers the Hornady.

Also, in water jug tests (unscientific), I have noticed that the GMX opens up less at lower velocities and fragments more at higher velocities than the TTSX and LRX. I have hunted with both bullets, achieved clean kills, and always get complete pass-throughs on typical size game. Go with what your gun likes the most. Reloading really makes the copper bullets shine, to a MUCH larger degree than most lead bullets.

If you do not reload, commercial ammo for the TTSX (Barnes Vortex) is superior to the commercial ammo for the GMX (superformance).

The Barnes does require more barrel maint than the GMX, in my opinion. I use Boretech Eliminator to remove copper fouling after hunting season, and copper removal seems to go on forever after a season shooting the Barnes. But, It is a small price to pay for an almost perfect bullet.

Great data!!! Thankyou! I use .mil issued Barnes (70gr tsx, loaded HOT, as in, 2900fps from my 16" ar) and LE issued 55gr GMX (5.56, not the Superformance stuff, which i read bad things about in the accuracy dept). They shoot very close to the same from my rifle, 1.5moa or so (ar15 with 1-4 nightforce). I'm not a handloader.

Do you have any specific experience with the 55gr GMX? Also, how much faster much the GMX be to open equal to a TSX, on the low end of the velocity spectrum?

I presume you've also used bonded ammo before, too? How do you find the momometals regarding lethality and speed of incapacitating on deer size game? More or less destructive?