Flying with guns/ammo

AustinL

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Ok let's beat this dead horse one more time. I know it has been discussed in length and I have read the old threads on the subject and still have some unanswered questions.

Me and my dad will be traveling delta from San Antonio to Atl then direct to Johannesburg SA. Then returning in reverse.

We will be traveling with two rifles our original plan was for my dad to file the 4457 customs form on both rifles and a single SAPS permit application for both guns. Is there an issue with this? It seems it would be confusing to have two applications for individual rifles in the same case. Rifle case is a pelican two gun case and would be locked with non TSA locks

For the ammo we planned to pack half of the ammo for each caliber in a separate locked case(TSA locks) inside our checked bag which will also be locked with TSA locks From what I am reading I can not bring ammo in though if I do not file the SAPS form?

Do I have a firm grasp on things and does anyone see issues with our plan. I have some time as we do not head out until September
 

sierraone

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I understand both rifles are in your dad's name. Are you a juvenile?
 

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................
We will be traveling with two rifles our original plan was for my dad to file the 4457 customs form on both rifles and a single SAPS permit application for both guns. Is there an issue with this? ............

Not if you are an observer.

I am reading I can not bring ammo in though if I do not file the SAPS form?
.........

"The importer must be in possession of the original import permit when importing the firearms or ammunition."

The application for an temporary import permit as well as an in-transit permit will be processed without any cost.

............
We will be traveling with two rifles our original plan was for my dad to file the 4457 customs form on both rifles and a single SAPS permit application for both guns. Is there an issue with this? ...........

If they are both the same caliber you will have an issue.
 
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AustinL

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Sierraone. I have not been a Juvenile for along time. In my mid 30's with juveniles of my own.

Was mainly looking at logistics of sending both rifles in a single case and trying to streamline the entry in SA and return to US.

We will both be hunting while In SA. It is not an issue to file individual customs forms and SAPS import forms if that is required.

Both rifles are different caliber's
 

sierraone

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@BRICKBURN ...Would he be allowed to carry ammo in his bag if he is not importing a rifle?
 

slam8031

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I have spread ammo out in several bags, locked as you mentioned. One was my wife’s checked luggage
and one mine. It was in separate checked bags. I have travelled with two guns in one case twice of different calibers and one was for my son and wife to use while I hunted with the other. They were both on one 4457 form for me. I have now gone atl-jnb on delta three times. No one has ever opened my ammo boxes to match to my rifles. They have only checked weights.
The purpose of the 4457 is to show that u own the weopon prior to departing the US. The saps form views the 4457 as almost a license to import the weapon. In my experience they didn’t seem to care who used the weopon or who carried what ammo.
 

Hogpatrol

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Hunting the same venue and not traveling public roads? You may be able to get by with one permit and 4457s in the same name. What does your outfitter and rifle permit vendor recommend?
Regarding locks, I would not use TSA locks on the gun case or ammo box. They aren't necessary and are actually less safe. I use regular padlocks on my gun case and ammo box. I've never had ammo checked at SAPS.
 

sierraone

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AustinL, Based on what Slam says, you appear to be good to go!
 

sierraone

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Hunting the same venue and not traveling public roads? You may be able to get by with one permit and 4457s in the same name. What does your outfitter and rifle permit vendor recommend?
Regarding locks, I would not use TSA locks on the gun case or ammo box. They aren't necessary and are actually less safe. I use regular padlocks on my gun case and ammo box. I've never had ammo checked at SAPS.
Based on what the TSA regs say, you are NOT suppose to use TSA locks on a gun case. Then is also says if you do use them on the gun case, it makes the inspection faster. I have traveled on Delta and United with rifles, but have NOT used TSA locks on the gun case. They obtain a key from me, inspect them, then re-lock the case and give the key back to me.
 

JimP

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To save headaches and problems down the road I would just separate the rifles and ammo with each rifle in its own case. That along with you getting your own SAP520 form and your own 4457. That way I highly doubt that you will have any problems with them when you reach South Africa.
 

slam8031

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I would also agree with hogpatrol in that it depends on hunting the same property and public roads comment, but ask the outfitter/ph I wonder what travel with guns or rifle permits would have to say on the subject. Again I am no expert but have had three trips of experience.
 

Hogpatrol

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Based on what the TSA regs say, you are NOT suppose to use TSA locks on a gun case. Then is also says if you do use them on the gun case, it makes the inspection faster. I have traveled on Delta and United with rifles, but have NOT used TSA locks on the gun case. They obtain a key from me, inspect them, then re-lock the case and give the key back to me.
Roger that. TSA locks are about as secure as using Ty-rap cable ties. (that's what I use, purple or yellow ones.)
 

AustinL

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I will be reaching out to a clearing service such as rifle permits And our outfitter prior to finalizing any decisions. I was mainly looking for experiences of those who have gone before. As stated we can both file import permits if needed the last thing I want to do is be a continent away and have an issue.

1. Two rifles in a single case
Option one a single customs form in either parties name single SAPS import permit. We will both be shooting each rifle depending on species.
Possible issues as I see them are importing ammunition
Use of either weapon if we are hunting with different PH’s with the same outfitter

2. Two rifles in a single case individual 4457’s two individual SAPS import permits
Potential issues confusion on co-mingling firearms under separate ownership in a single cas
 

JimP

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I believe that the regulations say that each person has to have his own case and another person can not carry in his case rifles for someone else.
 

BRICKBURN

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@BRICKBURN ...Would he be allowed to carry ammo in his bag if he is not importing a rifle?

The issue is always about being in possession of the proper license to do so legally.

Can you put the firearms all in one case? Sure.
Can you import them on one SAPS520? Sure.
Can you legally acquire ammunition and firearms in a foreign country that requires a license to do so without the proper license? No.
Can you manage to import the rifles and ammunition all on one SAPS520 and choose to hand the firearms off to your family members on the farm? Sure you can do so. Can you get away with it? Likely.
As has been noted. Head out on a public road headed to another concession in separate vehicles and you are set up to have trouble. No SAPS520 for the individual in possession of the ammunition and firearm and you can waste your hunt with an SAPS encounter.

In RSA you are required to have a license under the Firearms Act.

Bringing two owners weapons in the same case has not be an issue on the occasions I have done so, IF both people are present for any potential inspections at customs.
Have done so with friends.


A link to the act.
https://www.saps.gov.za/resource_centre/acts/downloads/juta/firearms_control_act_2000_a_0060.pdf

The SAPS firearms link.
https://www.saps.gov.za/services/flash/main_firearms.php


I wish you well with whatever choices you make.
 

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BRICKBURN

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As an addendum to this discussion.

I know you are going to have your own hunting license and should not encounter these issues.

An encounter with USFWS:

Sort of reminds me in a way, of a few years ago when FWS here, got all up in arms because my boy and I had all of our SA trophies listed in my name, and we didn't have written "permission" from all of the owners of properties we hunted on (for him) even though we drank beer with them after hunting there! So we had to go thru all manner of baloney to satisfy US FWS as to the legality of our hunt in RSA! ............... we did eventually win the release of our trophies but not without a lot of angst and apprehension. We certainly didn't intend to violate any law, but they sure tried to make us feel like we did! The whole thing was BS! I will never willingly set foot in another FWS office again!

I have no doubt it was an expensive and stressful process.

Another memorable example of a potential legal encounter:
There was a brand new AH member some time ago that was complaining about a taxidermist not shipping their trophies out of Namibia. The new member started a public complaint raising a stink about the taxidermist. The individual was actually an OBSERVER that had been allowed to "hunt" an animal on the friends hunting license. The complainant did not ever have a license to hunt in Namibia. Through ignorance they were effectively throwing their Outfitter, PH and friend in the soup.
A technicality. Can you imagine the trouble if USFWS caught wind of that one;
Illegal importation, hunting without a license, Lacey Act, etc.
 

sestoppelman

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Hunting the same venue and not traveling public roads? You may be able to get by with one permit and 4457s in the same name. What does your outfitter and rifle permit vendor recommend?
Regarding locks, I would not use TSA locks on the gun case or ammo box. They aren't necessary and are actually less safe. I use regular padlocks on my gun case and ammo box. I've never had ammo checked at SAPS.
I once just a few years ago going thru JO, had my ammo given very close scrutiny and was admonished for not having it in its own case. The rifle case they paid little attention to. Go figure.
 

Philip Glass

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I would suggest taking separate cases but not because of legal issues but due to you each being allowed two 50lb bags on the airline (I know there are fees in involved these days but nonetheless you get to take two bags). You each have a checked bag with your ammo and a gun case. I’ll pack a few things coming and going in my Pelican 2 gun case if only taking 1 Rifle and this helps keep the weight under the 50lbsX2.
Now what some of the guys on here are saying about putting both guns in one persons name is that IF you are with an outfitter that drives you all over the place from farm to farm then you both would need to be together with the guns and SAPS forms. IF you are likely to be on the same property the whole time then don’t worry about any legal issues.
Nice to see some folks on AH that live close to me!
Have a great trip.
Philip
 

AustinL

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We are going to stick to a single case but will both be getting permits for are respective guns to easy not to and no major benefit not to.

Philip if your ever in this neck of the woods I’ll buy the first round
 
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BRICKBURN

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Enjoy your hunt.
 

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