First group with my first double .470 N.E.

deewayne2003

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My first trip to the range with my first double rifle taught me a few things and thought I would see if any of you seasoned double rifle veterans would weigh in on my thoughts.

Rifle - Sabatti Safari .470 N.E. - Regulation, Trigger job & recoil reducer by Ken Owen of Moscow Tennessee
IMG_8308.jpg

IMG_8309.jpg


IMG_8307.jpg




Ammo - Handloads that came with the rifle = 500 gr. woodleigh soft points & 500 gr. Hornady DGS: both loaded with IMR3031 & Winchester Magnum primers (load developed and recommended by Ken Owen)

First group ever(for me) - 60yds standing with bi-pod rest on top of bench (indoor gun range)

500gr Woodleigh SP

The top of the target tore while zipping out to 60 yds on the electric target carrier so the second hole appears to be a rip as the top of the target was flapping around from the air circulation fans.

The 3 red dots are my bullseye - so yes it's hitting 11" high with the windage being dead on (pardon the picture rotation)
IMG_8412.JPG


Second group - 500gr Hornady DGS, 60yds with a different target, still 12" high but I'm pleased with the accuracy compared to some of the MUCH more expensive doubles I have shot.
IMG_8414.JPG



What I took away from this first range trip was.....

1. I was surprised at how accurate the rifle is; even with it being my first time firing it and having fired a total of 12 rounds the widest spread between both holes was 5" and that was my fault for jerking the shot.

2. The Woodleigh SP & Hornady DGS had the same point of impact which was a pleasant surprise; I had read that Woodleigh & Hornady both duplicated the profiles of the old Kynoch projectiles so I guess that would attribute to them printing the same.

NOTE: I am aware of the issues with unbonded Hornady DG ammo; and while the projectiles I have are NON-bonded I plan on using them as practice rounds and then using either new bonded versions for hunting or using Woodleighs - FYI Ken Owen confirmed that this rifle was regulated with Hornady bullets with his own load of 78gr of IMR3031

3. The elephant in the room - The rifle is hitting 12" high and I expected that because the previous owner had filed down the front site so that it would be hitting 6" high for him; being that I am much larger in stature than the previous owner, which I did meet and speak at length with, so it comes as no surprise to me that the front sight needs to be replaced.

I spoke with Ken Owen about the front sight before this first trip to the range and his advice was to shoot the gun, see how it printed, then take a starting measurement of the front sight height before molding epoxy putty around it to build up the front sight blade.

Then I can sand/file the epoxy down until the rifle is hitting true to point of aim and then we'll know exactly what height of front sight to order as a replacement.

I took the measurement of the sight after getting home, so now I have a reference point to start with....

0.983" from bottom of the barrels to top of the sight post = 12" high impact

Anyone know how many thousandths of an inch it takes to move point of impact for elevation down 12"?
 
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Opposite Pole

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You can calculate it using distance to target and distance between front and rear sight or go lazy and use an app like “SightAdjustment”
 

Opposite Pole

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Search for “Open Sight Adjustment & Formula”
 
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deewayne2003

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Search for “Open Sight Adjustment & Formula”

Thank you sir, I found it.... I'll have to double check the sight radius when I get home but it appears I will need to raise the sight 0.1067"

Big help Opposite Pole - Much appreciated!
 
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Shootist43

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Another problem could be how you are using Express sights. Most if not all of us were taught that the top of the front sight gets aligned with the top of the rear sight. Except with Express sights that isn't so. Try dropping your front sight down to where the "circle" rests equally on the bottom of the " V "

Let us know if that helped.
 

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My first trip to the range with my first double rifle taught me a few things and thought I would see if any of you seasoned double rifle veterans would weigh in on my thoughts.

Rifle - Sabatti Safari .470 N.E. - Regulation, Trigger job & recoil reducer by Ken Owen of Moscow Tennessee
View attachment 330650
View attachment 330652

View attachment 330649



Ammo - Handloads that came with the rifle = 500 gr. woodleigh soft points & 500 gr. Hornady DGS: both loaded with IMR3031 & Winchester Magnum primers (load developed and recommended by Ken Owen)

First group ever(for me) - 60yds standing with bi-pod rest on top of bench (indoor gun range)

500gr Woodleigh SP

The top of the target tore while zipping out to 60 yds on the electric target carrier so the second hole appears to be a rip as the top of the target was flapping around from the air circulation fans.

The 3 red dots are my bullseye - so yes it's hitting 11" high with the windage being dead on (pardon the picture rotation)
View attachment 330655

Second group - 500gr Hornady DGS, 60yds with a different target, still 12" high but I'm pleased with the accuracy compared to some of the MUCH more expensive doubles I have shot.
View attachment 330654



What I took away from this first range trip was.....

1. I was surprised at how accurate the rifle is; even with it being my first time firing it and having fired a total of 12 rounds the widest spread between both holes was 5" and that was my fault for jerking the shot.

2. The Woodleigh SP & Hornady DGS had the same point of impact which was a pleasant surprise; I had read that Woodleigh & Hornady both duplicated the profiles of the old Kynoch projectiles so I guess that would attribute to them printing the same.

NOTE: I am aware of the issues with unbonded Hornady DG ammo; and while the projectiles I have are NON-bonded I plan on using them as practice rounds and then using either new bonded versions for hunting or using Woodleighs - FYI Ken Owen confirmed that this rifle was regulated with Hornady bullets with his own load of 78gr of IMR3031

3. The elephant in the room - The rifle is hitting 12" high and I expected that because the previous owner had filed down the front site so that it would be hitting 6" high for him; being that I am much larger in stature than the previous owner, which I did meet and speak at length with, so it comes as no surprise to me that the front sight needs to be replaced.

I spoke with Ken Owen about the front sight before this first trip to the range and his advice was to shoot the gun, see how it printed, then take a starting measurement of the front sight height before molding epoxy putty around it to build up the front sight blade.

Then I can sand/file the epoxy down until the rifle is hitting true to point of aim and then we'll know exactly what height of front sight to order as a replacement.

I took the measurement of the sight after getting home, so now I have a reference point to start with....

0.983" from bottom of the barrels to top of the sight post = 12" high impact

Anyone know how many thousandths of an inch it takes to move point of impact for elevation down 12"?

It’s a simple trig calculation but you do need to know the sight radius to do it.
 

Ridgewalker

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Brownells sight has a calculation, example and explanation I found interesting.

I think you did very well with open sights at 60 yards! I’m impressed! I can hardly see open sights any more, much less the target too!
 

deewayne2003

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Another problem could be how you are using Express sights. Most if not all of us were taught that the top of the front sight gets aligned with the top of the rear sight. Except with Express sights that isn't so. Try dropping your front sight down to where the "circle" rests equally on the bottom of the " V "

Let us know if that helped.

Shootist43, I know exactly what you mean, and believe me I wish I had a "dot" to settle in the bottom of the V..... Might forth coming sight pic will help you see what I'm dealing with - The previous owner was an accomplished shooter who preferred a "6 o'clock hold" so the sights are not obscuring the target; furthermore the width of the front sight has been narrowed considerably.
It’s a simple trig calculation but you do need to know the sight radius to do it.

WAB- I agree with you 100%; but if you look at the front sight pic you can see that it has not only been narrowed and shorten but also the face was filed back so the true front sight radius is somewhat of a mystery; but currently it sets at 17.40" from front of the front sight to face of the rear sight.

Brownells sight has a calculation, example and explanation I found interesting.

I think you did very well with open sights at 60 yards! I’m impressed! I can hardly see open sights any more, much less the target too!

Ridgewalker - Thanks for the complement I am blessed with 20/20 vision without correction; with correction I get 20/15; and I wear glasses to protect my visions "band width".

So here is the front sight.......

Front Sight.JPG
 
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Ridgewalker

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And the sight radius?

(11”x sight radius)/(60x36)=change you need to make

This is what I got from the Brownell’s website. Hope it helps!
 
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deewayne2003

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Ridgewalker.... Check my response to WAB = 17.40"

With the math I'm doing I need to raise it .1063" for a finished sight height of 1.089" being the correct new measurement....I'll give myself some extra room to allow for tuning.

Does anyone have a set of calipers & a double rifle with a good front sight?....If so what is the width of the front sight blade/post/bead at the top of your front sight?

I'm trying to replicate a quality replacement front sight with my epoxy front Frankenstein sight before sending it off.
 

deewayne2003

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Metal prep done - This is exactly how the front sight was when I bought the rifle, I just sanded to clean the surface then degrease with 99% rubbing alcohol
IMG_8419.JPG


Epoxy putty applied - card cut to show MINIMUM height to raise; I went well over so I can fine tune it

IMG_8422.JPG


Just sanded it and put some orange paint on for visibility & sanding reference when sighting in..... I'll post pics tomorrow, its getting late.
 

Shootist43

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Deewayne2003, it is obvious what you are trying to do. However do you really think a front sight over an inch tall made out of epoxy is going to hold up? Wouldn't you be much further ahead to send the rifle to a gunsmith recommended by the manufacturer or
J.J. Perodeau? You may not be aware of him or his capabilities but there are quite a number of Double Rifle aficionados on AH that swear by him. Speaking frankly (but meaning no offence) what you don't want to do is turn what some would call a questionable double rifle into a piece of junk. You owe it to yourself to give him a phone call.
 

deewayne2003

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Deewayne2003, it is obvious what you are trying to do. However do you really think a front sight over an inch tall made out of epoxy is going to hold up? Wouldn't you be much further ahead to send the rifle to a gunsmith recommended by the manufacturer or
J.J. Perodeau? You may not be aware of him or his capabilities but there are quite a number of Double Rifle aficionados on AH that swear by him. Speaking frankly (but meaning no offence) what you don't want to do is turn what some would call a questionable double rifle into a piece of junk. You owe it to yourself to give him a phone call.

Shootist 43..... I think you may have missed a very important part of my original post - The part where I spoke with Ken Owen who is the smith that re-regulated this rifle, so I'm following his advice; and as I understand it Ken Owen was the Sabatti preferred smith to handle the original regulating issues that haunted Sabatti doubles.

Apparently Sabatti was put under an unrealistic deadline to deliver these rifles; short cuts were taken during the regulating process(early guns) and even the president of Sabatti admitted this was a BIG mistake and publicly apologized for it.

This epoxy "frankensight" is simply to get the rifle hitting true to point of aim with me shooting it; so that Ken Owen will know EXACTLY what height of front sight is needed, so he can replace it...... again I'm following his instructions, before I send it off to have the front sight replaced with a proper sight by Ken himself.

As for it being "over an inch tall"... it will be over an inch tall but that's measured from the bottom of the barrel so I could figure out a ball park amount of adjustment needed.

I molded the epoxy extra high so that I will have plenty of adjustment to sand/file the epoxy down until the point of impact is true..... Then I send it off to Tennessee with a supply of ammo and he will replace the front sight and fine tune it before returning.

I do appreciate your concern but I assure you Ken Owen is a well regarded in the double rifle world.


Example of Ken Owen's work....
https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/53/1617/ken-owen-double-rifle-4

AH Thread where Ken Owen is mentioned as dealing with these rifles.
https://www.africahunting.com/threads/sabatti-doubles-worked-by-ken-owen.14080/
 

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Shootist43

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OK!! Now I get it. I totally misunderstood your intentions. I was thinking you were looking to get by on the cheap, you know "BUBBA'S Gun Shop" and such.
 

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My first trip to the range with my first double rifle taught me a few things and thought I would see if any of you seasoned double rifle veterans would weigh in on my thoughts.

Rifle - Sabatti Safari .470 N.E. - Regulation, Trigger job & recoil reducer by Ken Owen of Moscow Tennessee
View attachment 330650
View attachment 330652

View attachment 330649



Ammo - Handloads that came with the rifle = 500 gr. woodleigh soft points & 500 gr. Hornady DGS: both loaded with IMR3031 & Winchester Magnum primers (load developed and recommended by Ken Owen)

First group ever(for me) - 60yds standing with bi-pod rest on top of bench (indoor gun range)

500gr Woodleigh SP

The top of the target tore while zipping out to 60 yds on the electric target carrier so the second hole appears to be a rip as the top of the target was flapping around from the air circulation fans.

The 3 red dots are my bullseye - so yes it's hitting 11" high with the windage being dead on (pardon the picture rotation)
View attachment 330770

Second group - 500gr Hornady DGS, 60yds with a different target, still 12" high but I'm pleased with the accuracy compared to some of the MUCH more expensive doubles I have shot.
View attachment 330771


What I took away from this first range trip was.....

1. I was surprised at how accurate the rifle is; even with it being my first time firing it and having fired a total of 12 rounds the widest spread between both holes was 5" and that was my fault for jerking the shot.

2. The Woodleigh SP & Hornady DGS had the same point of impact which was a pleasant surprise; I had read that Woodleigh & Hornady both duplicated the profiles of the old Kynoch projectiles so I guess that would attribute to them printing the same.

NOTE: I am aware of the issues with unbonded Hornady DG ammo; and while the projectiles I have are NON-bonded I plan on using them as practice rounds and then using either new bonded versions for hunting or using Woodleighs - FYI Ken Owen confirmed that this rifle was regulated with Hornady bullets with his own load of 78gr of IMR3031

3. The elephant in the room - The rifle is hitting 12" high and I expected that because the previous owner had filed down the front site so that it would be hitting 6" high for him; being that I am much larger in stature than the previous owner, which I did meet and speak at length with, so it comes as no surprise to me that the front sight needs to be replaced.

I spoke with Ken Owen about the front sight before this first trip to the range and his advice was to shoot the gun, see how it printed, then take a starting measurement of the front sight height before molding epoxy putty around it to build up the front sight blade.

Then I can sand/file the epoxy down until the rifle is hitting true to point of aim and then we'll know exactly what height of front sight to order as a replacement.

I took the measurement of the sight after getting home, so now I have a reference point to start with....

0.983" from bottom of the barrels to top of the sight post = 12" high impact

Anyone know how many thousandths of an inch it takes to move point of impact for elevation down 12"?
When I needed iron sights for my 458, I gave New England Custom Guns a call. I gave them all the measurements they needed over the phone - and then shipped the correctly dimensioned sights that I needed. Give them a try as it might save the effort.

Love that engraving btw I hope you have lots of fun with your new acquisition - in a truly classic calibre!!
 

Forrest Halley

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When I needed iron sights for my 458, I gave New England Custom Guns a call. I gave them all the measurements they needed over the phone - and then shipped the correctly dimensioned sights that I needed. Give them a try as it might save the effort.

Love that engraving btw I hope you have lots of fun with your new acquisition - in a truly classic calibre!!

Mark at New England Custom Guns is an amazing gentleman to deal with. I had an issue with the screws on my .375 Safari Express being very soft and he was able to send me out replacements rapidly to correct it.

Another name to learn when shopping for sights and hardware is Recknagel. NECG is the US distributor for them I believe. Some very nice things in that catalog.

@deewayne2003 Out of curiosity, why the tags on the guns? Cleaning schedule? It looks like you're on to something.
 

deewayne2003

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Made it back to the range with the epoxy sight along with the tools to adjust it and the results are rather pleasing.

These groups were fired at 50yds standing with a BOG pod bipod sitting on the bench for support.

2FC2C61B-9849-41A7-94FC-9636C5A7A789.jpeg


A95745DD-6123-4958-8330-8695C715A511.jpeg


The above & below groups are with Hornady DGS (solid)
67464FCE-CDA3-4C1B-A695-828A1362FFEF.jpeg


So it shoots Hornady & Woodleigh bullets well, another pleasant surprise.

Remember this is only my second trip to the range with this rifle, and my first double rifle as well as my first .470 nitro express.

I feel blessed, as I know men with doubles that cost six figures and don’t shoot this well.
 

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Really good shooting!
 

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Looks like you have found a good rifle! happy hunting!
 

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