Female Leopard Misstakenly taken

MARTIN PIETERS SAFARIS

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It is totally up to the PH, he is in charge of the safari and is responsible for the actions of anyone in his party. Any follow ups/ reports and paperwork shall be his sole responsibility.
 

gizmo

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I wonder if dropping a letter to the authorities in Zimbabwe would do any good. At least if they acted he would get raked over the coals.
 

MARTIN PIETERS SAFARIS

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If the leopard was paid for and the PH told the client it would be exported, yes a letter would help.
 

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Wheels

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Here is a thought.

Send a letter to the Outfitter, ZPHGA , SOAZ and Zim Parks. Enclose photos of the leopard along with details of what happened. Tell them they have three months to get your leopard to you or to get your money back. If they don't you will forward your letters, photos etc. to Johnny Rodrigues.

Ask the outfitter how Theo Bronkhorst's hunting business is doing these days.

Ask ZPHGA and SOAZ to put pressure on the outfitter. They have a vested intererest in making this right for you. Especially if this outfitter is a member. If the outfitter is a member, he shouldn't be. Hopefully the organizations will kick him out.

Ask Zim Parks how much their forex is down this year after the pathetic way they handled the Cecil debacle. Ask them how long it has been since their park rangers have been paid! Ask them to ask the outfitter where your leopard is! Ask if they are ready to deal with Cecilia the leopard.


This may seem drastic but it is sickening the way some outfitters screw their clients. The outfitter should be called out for his actions so this doesn't happen to someone else.
 

enysse

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Very clever Wheels!
 

LivingTheDream

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Please no Cecilia the leopard. I still want to kill one some day and if they ban leopard imports I would go into an all depression.
 

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I'm already in a deep depression over lion hunting. That was next on my list.
 

Royal27

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Here is a thought.

Send a letter to the Outfitter, ZPHGA , SOAZ and Zim Parks. Enclose photos of the leopard along with details of what happened. Tell them they have three months to get your leopard to you or to get your money back. If they don't you will forward your letters, photos etc. to Johnny Rodrigues.

Ask the outfitter how Theo Bronkhorst's hunting business is doing these days.

Ask ZPHGA and SOAZ to put pressure on the outfitter. They have a vested intererest in making this right for you. Especially if this outfitter is a member. If the outfitter is a member, he shouldn't be. Hopefully the organizations will kick him out.

Ask Zim Parks how much their forex is down this year after the pathetic way they handled the Cecil debacle. Ask them how long it has been since their park rangers have been paid! Ask them to ask the outfitter where your leopard is! Ask if they are ready to deal with Cecilia the leopard.


This may seem drastic but it is sickening the way some outfitters screw their clients. The outfitter should be called out for his actions so this doesn't happen to someone else.

And this is why we come to the forum!!! For great ideas like this!

I'd say this will not only give the OP some satisfaction, it might just get him his money back, and maybe a slim shot at the leopard, although it is probably long destroyed....
 

K-man

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make sure they don't try to extradite the hunter over it.......Awesome ideas! short of naming and shaming, maybe send the P.H. a copy of the letter first and give him a chance to clear it up (like 2 weeks) then send to the governing authorities.
 

enysse

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There is zero chance to get the leopard back but the outfitter did wrong and pinched the client for unnecessary extra money.
 

rookhawk

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I read this whole thread and I found the conclusions different than I anticipated.

I don't know about private land rules but I know if this happened on public land like a safari area, you would:

-apologize profusely for poaching (killing a protected animal without authorization)

-fill out paperwork

-surrender your tag / license (no do over)

-surrender the skin

-pray your lucky stars you aren't evicted from your hunt thus losing your plains game hunt too


Under no circumstances would I foresee any nation let you keep the unauthorized skin. If they were to allow you to keep poached skins, affluent people would just poach and pay the additional "surcharge for females". The hide isn't the hunters "property" as many have asserted, it's States evidence of a criminal act. I think the demands and name and shame proposals on this thread are brazen and audacious.

The man killed a protected CITES animal that has no legal hunting season for crying out loud! He's lucky he didn't get treated worse than a MN dentist by Zimbabwe.

I don't see any evidence that the PH did anything wrong. In fact, he probably was working behind the scenes to prevent worse repercussions for the client from the list above. I find the conclusion or even the hint that the PH screwed the client to be without evidence.
 
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siml

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@rookhawk , who is in charge of the hunt? Client is paying, but the responsibility lies on the PH/outfitter. That is why it is illegal to hunt if you a foreigner without a PH. The ph called the leopard, yes mistakes happen, but in the end it was the ph's mistake. The money part I am not interested in commenting about.
 

rookhawk

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Agree, it was a bad PH call IF it is true he told the client to shoot and the client did.

The fee is still required to be paid to the landowner because his quota has been consumed.

You could complain that the PH made
A mistake but frankly, he was too busy making the problem go away so you don't get evicted from the country or surrender ALL your other trophies.
 

enysse

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I don't see any evidence that the PH did anything wrong. In fact, he probably was working behind the scenes to prevent worse repercussions for the client from the list above. I find the conclusion or even the hint that the PH screwed the client to be without evidence.

The PH was in charge of the hunt, if his client shot a female leopard then how is he or she not wrong.:A Stirring: I fail to see the logic. The money is another issue entirely.:A Coffee: But a lot of mistakes were done on this hunt.:A Shit:
 

Hank2211

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As a hunter, the onus is always onus to determine sex, shootability etc... we cannot blame the PH in my mind. When I pull the trigger, I MUST be sure of my shot, the safe area behind the shot and what I am shooting at... I cannot shoot a Gemsbok and then claim I thought it was a kudu, for example!!

The PH was in charge of the hunt, if his client shot a female leopard then how is he or she not wrong.:A Stirring: I fail to see the logic. The money is another issue entirely.:A Coffee: But a lot of mistakes were done on this hunt.:A Shit:

Opposite perspectives. I'd say both are right. Here's why.

From a legal perspective, the person holding the rifle and pulling the trigger is always responsible for whatever he shoots. If the PH tells you to shoot a person, and you do, you are responsible. I don't believe the person behind the trigger would or should be able to shirk responsibility. So that's the legal perspective, and that gives us the answer as between the hunter and the landowner/Government of Zimbabwe. Trophy is forfeit, and a fine must be paid (at least this would be the case on National Parks lands).

From a practical - and maybe even moral - perspective, this is, though, the fault of the PH. Very few leopard hunters, particularly first timers, will be able to properly sex a leopard while sitting in a blind. Not only is it difficult to do unless you get exactly the right presentation in the right light for the right amount of time, but your window in the blind is likely (more rather than less) covered by a rifle on some sort of rest. (You could try to do this by looking through a scope, but you'd have to be pretty special to be sure enough that you got it right to allow you to take a shot with confidence.) Add to that the fact that your PH will want to make the determination himself, and will likely want you to sit perfectly still and not fumble around with binos when you should be getting ready for a possible shot, and you have a situation where the hunter is completely dependent on the PH for this decision.

In a perfect world, if the PH messed up, you'd get another shot at a different leopard. If that isn't possible, some sort of compensation should be offered - starting with the PH's employer paying the fine.
 

siml

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@Hank2211 , seriously are you going to compare a male/female leopard to shooting a person?? The PH messed up, he called the shot. Our second leopard last year came to the bait in broad day light , sat on his arse with his back to us, I knew 99% he was a male, but there was still that 1%. I wasn't going to call the shot until I saw his balls or if he would turn I could see his face. We didn't take the shot that day. Mozambique, difference in weight male/female leopard is 7-8kg. I disagree with Bruce's point.
 

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Simon, I'm not comparing shooting people with shooting leopards - at least not in the way you suggest. I was pointing out that people with guns don't get a "let" or a free pass when they mistakenly shoot people, nor should they when they mistakenly shoot anything else, from a legal or ultimate responsibility perspective. Again, speaking from the ultimate responsibility perspective, the person with the gun must be sure of his (or her) target before they fire. No room for doubt.

Having said that, I went on to say that when it comes to hunting leopard, the PH is the only one who can really call the shot, so the hunter must rely on the PH. Doesn't relieve the hunter of legal responsibility if the PH called the wrong shot, but it should receive the hunter of having to pay the fine or trophy fee (as between the PH/outfitter and the hunter). in my opinion.
 

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To me it is pretty simple. I could not hunt a leopard without a Ph and his main job other then getting one on bait is to tell me what is legal for me to take. Yes I may pull the trigger but would be his call when. I do not know a outfitter who would put this kind of mistake on the client at all.

This outfit screwed this hunter big time and that cat got buried to never be seen again. You can start up some trouble for him but just beware that it could be another story if it gets out it could hurt hunting big time.
 

siml

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Hank, I hear your point, but on the leopard, that's the Ph's call, his mistake, his cost. Maybe a polite client would help pay the cost, yes mistakes do happen and all the more on leopard because of the pressure.
 

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