Fair chase hunting

NE 7x57

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Thank you Tundra Tiger.
And for spike.t. For your information. And other. As insulting as NE 7x57.
I live in South Africa. Have hunted open farms. And you would not know. It is land with cattle fence. For 500 miles in any direction.
Since I was ten years of age. Which you will not equal. Not even if you grow to be 600 years of age.
The deceptiveness of the human mind is gigantic.
So you live and have hunted SA all your life and somehow that gives you insight into hunting practices world wide? You insult many members of this board with regard to their hunting methods and yet complain that I insulted you? At the risk of insulting you again, I think I can speak for many here in telling you we really don't give a shit what you think. Have a nice life.
 

Hookboy88

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From my experience with dealing with people who have this mindset I have noticed one thing they all have in common. They are very inexperienced hunters, but in their mind they are one of the best. They will then show you a few skull caps of the very young animals they have killed to prove how great a hunter they are….
 

Hogpatrol

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Paraphrasing Shakespeare and Socrates, "The more I learn, the more I know nothing". The OP hasn't figured that out yet.
 

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I usually try to ignore these posts.

They are deliberately inflammatory - inevitably by someone with very few postings, and always begun from a position of extraordinary ignorance and lack of experience.

I would love to see this character come over and demonstrate his skills at sneaking up on a mature whitetail buck almost anywhere in the Eastern half of the country. Or perhaps show Texans how to creep through the mesquite and find that 6.5 year old 10 pointer. Or maybe travel to Europe and demonstrate to a German or Austrian lease holder how to judge barren roe and red deer does and hinds without being able to give them lengthy study from a high seat.

Much hunting in this country and most in Europe is about careful herd management. That requires very selective take - being able carefully judge a management animal from a developing trophy.

At worst he is merely a troll. At best - well, perhaps the "true rifle hunter" really should try to get out a little more before being casting his judgmental ignorance on the wind.
I would pay to see this person try and spot and stalk through the palmetto fields in S. LA. where the palms get over 6’ high. and as dense as that mesquite.
 

Red Leg

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I would pay to see this person try and spot and stalk through the palmetto fields in S. LA. where the palms get over 6’ high. and as dense as that mesquite.
For sure.

I don't know why I waste my time. I am certain he knows about all there is to know about his patch of ground, and yet, is so ignorant about the game and conditions in which it is hunted in the rest of the world that he doesn't even realize how uninformed and offensive he sounds.

I grew up in Lake Charles by the way, and still miss the duck hunting at Johnson's Bayou.
 

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I have been debating with myself whether this is a topic I want to comment on as it is like a mine field , whatever direction one goes one may be in trouble . Hunting ethics and what is considered as hunting is at least as varied as all the different cultures on the earth . It differs from country to country , from culture to culture and from person to person - every level playing a role .

I can understand that Flint who initiated this thread feels the way he does and I appreciate his sentiment relating to fair , walk and stalk hunting , but aspects of what he said may not have been communicated in the best way .

My preferred way of hunting is fair chase walk and stalk , but this is done on fenced farms . Although the game is not tame and have been allowed to breed and live without undue interference from people some hunters who only hunt open unfenced public land may regard this as unethical due to it being a fenced area , this is their perception and belief based on their culture and beliefs .

As I am South African I hunt within the boundaries of SA law , culture , geography , weather , etc - but I also have my own opinions and biases based on my own life's learnings and experiences , all of which contribute to what I consider to be my preferred way of hunting , of what I consider to be fair and ethical .

Hunting ethics is something I enjoy discussing with like minded persons as long as they are able to be mature , realistic and honest about their opinions but unfortunately it is such a contentious and emotive topic that some people are just not able to participate in such discussions without getting over emotional .

Just within my group of friends and hunting buddies there are many opinions as to what ethical hunting is or should be , and this is within a group of people that is same or similar culture , education , ethnicity , social level , etc - so how varied will it be between countries and cultures ?

It is my belief that ones introduction to hunting plays a huge role in how one hunts , if one is taught from the start that shooting from a hide , stand or vehicle is acceptable then that is what becomes your frame of reference especially if it is the norm in that country / culture .

Unfortunately I have not experienced hunting in other countries and with other cultures and it would not be fair for me to judge their way of doing things unless I have experienced it first hand , but that being said I cannot and will not support any practice that causes any undue suffering and pain for any animal purely to satisfy financial greed or the egos of men . ( But this is also argumentative from some peoples perspective as in our modern world there is no real need for most people to hunt , if we want meat we can just buy it at the local store , so is it not for our own selfish reasons that we hunt ? )

There are so many ways to argue issues of hunting based on peoples own cultures and beliefs that to try and argue for a "one size fits all " approach will be impossible .

Can shooting an animal at 800 m plus be considered hunting or is it just shooting ? Is shooting from a hide over bait or water hunting or is it just shooting ? Is shooting from a vehicle hunting or just culling ? Is fair chase walk and stalk to be considered as the only true form of hunting ? - do all of these methods automatically qualify as forms of hunting or does it depend on where it is , who is involved , the reason , tradition , etc ?

Is it the simple act of killing an animal no matter how it is done that qualifies a method as hunting and the person as a hunter ?

I am not going to answer these questions as there are just so many arguments in favour and against them that to try and attempt this on social media would be a nightmare . ( I would

much rather be sitting around a fire in the bush with some of you discussing these issues were it possible . )

As an individual I am biased towards certain forms of "hunting" but I am realistic enough to understand that had I been brought up in other countries , with other cultures or even with different parents I would more than likely have a different perspective of hunting and life in general .

As hunters we need to try and understand the differences in hunting practices due to culture , environment , law , social economic circumstances , etc , but at the same time we should not support or condone hunting practices that tarnish the image of hunters and can be regarded as unethical . ( So here is the big problem again , who decides what is ethical and what is not ? Is it ethical just because it is legal - very often legality is not in line with being fair or correct it is purely a legal requirement ? The age old debate with no clear answer , and everyone thinking their perspective is correct . )

Is it fair to judge the character , integrity and ethics of another hunter based on the assumption he/she has hunted less than you or in less destinations than you ? Does having more opportunity to hunt make one a better hunter ?

I know people that have been "hunting" for decades and have killed many animals but I would not consider their version of hunting to be fair and ethical .

Within reason we need to be tolerant of each others cultures and methods of hunting for the future of the "sport" . I do not have all the answers but I do know that being over emotional , disrespectful , intolerant and rude to each other as "hunters " is not the solution .

Maybe the principle of "not judging a man ( hunter ) until your have walked a mile in his shoes " should apply ?

Now just to wait and see how many times I get called a fcktard or a troll . ( I wanted to put a laughing emoji here but havent a clue how to do it )
 

wesheltonj

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Another this is the only way to hunt post. Sir, if you really believe that is the only way, please don’t come to South Texas. An elevated stand is the only way to hunt in South Texas. It’s impossible to spot and stock in unchained brush. I have a nice and wide cleared area and a big feeder. The doe’s eat up the corn. The doe’s attract the bucks. I have yet to see a big buck at the feeders during the rut (non-rut, they will come to the feeder) or have I shot a Deer at the feeders. Now a hog, will be shot wherever it’s standing, unless I might shoot a feeder leg.

Below is unchained South Texas brush. I would suggest you can’t spot game, much less stalk game thru that brush.

IMG_2568.JPG
 
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I have hunted in many states in the U.S. Each area has a traditional way to hunt and much of that is rooted in what is practical for the area. I enjoy them all . That south Texas brush is similar to a marsh farm I once owned on the eastern shore of Md. The common approach there was to stand hunt 100 yards or so from a corn pile. In Montana where our whitetail are in bottom ground areas that are not nearly as thick the method is more spot/ stalk.
Enjoy your hunting !
 

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BC567B8F-9BDF-4B79-9028-0931E17E5809.jpeg

I am open to ideas and try but stalking through this is next to impossible.
 

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I wish our hunters from Africa could experience the different environments and methods of American hunters. As noted in the photos above, a lot of game is located in areas where it is impenetrable and has zero to a couple meters visibility. I hunted black bear from a tree stand over bait in Maine. I could see the bait down a tunnel cut out of the brush and trees. If a bear was anywhere else with in one meter of me, I couldn't see it. The vegetation was green and thick.
 

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I have been debating with myself whether this is a topic I want to comment on as it is like a mine field , whatever direction one goes one may be in trouble . Hunting ethics and what is considered as hunting is at least as varied as all the different cultures on the earth . It differs from country to country , from culture to culture and from person to person - every level playing a role .

I can understand that Flint who initiated this thread feels the way he does and I appreciate his sentiment relating to fair , walk and stalk hunting , but aspects of what he said may not have been communicated in the best way .

My preferred way of hunting is fair chase walk and stalk , but this is done on fenced farms . Although the game is not tame and have been allowed to breed and live without undue interference from people some hunters who only hunt open unfenced public land may regard this as unethical due to it being a fenced area , this is their perception and belief based on their culture and beliefs .

As I am South African I hunt within the boundaries of SA law , culture , geography , weather , etc - but I also have my own opinions and biases based on my own life's learnings and experiences , all of which contribute to what I consider to be my preferred way of hunting , of what I consider to be fair and ethical .

Hunting ethics is something I enjoy discussing with like minded persons as long as they are able to be mature , realistic and honest about their opinions but unfortunately it is such a contentious and emotive topic that some people are just not able to participate in such discussions without getting over emotional .

Just within my group of friends and hunting buddies there are many opinions as to what ethical hunting is or should be , and this is within a group of people that is same or similar culture , education , ethnicity , social level , etc - so how varied will it be between countries and cultures ?

It is my belief that ones introduction to hunting plays a huge role in how one hunts , if one is taught from the start that shooting from a hide , stand or vehicle is acceptable then that is what becomes your frame of reference especially if it is the norm in that country / culture .

Unfortunately I have not experienced hunting in other countries and with other cultures and it would not be fair for me to judge their way of doing things unless I have experienced it first hand , but that being said I cannot and will not support any practice that causes any undue suffering and pain for any animal purely to satisfy financial greed or the egos of men . ( But this is also argumentative from some peoples perspective as in our modern world there is no real need for most people to hunt , if we want meat we can just buy it at the local store , so is it not for our own selfish reasons that we hunt ? )

There are so many ways to argue issues of hunting based on peoples own cultures and beliefs that to try and argue for a "one size fits all " approach will be impossible .

Can shooting an animal at 800 m plus be considered hunting or is it just shooting ? Is shooting from a hide over bait or water hunting or is it just shooting ? Is shooting from a vehicle hunting or just culling ? Is fair chase walk and stalk to be considered as the only true form of hunting ? - do all of these methods automatically qualify as forms of hunting or does it depend on where it is , who is involved , the reason , tradition , etc ?

Is it the simple act of killing an animal no matter how it is done that qualifies a method as hunting and the person as a hunter ?

I am not going to answer these questions as there are just so many arguments in favour and against them that to try and attempt this on social media would be a nightmare . ( I would

much rather be sitting around a fire in the bush with some of you discussing these issues were it possible . )

As an individual I am biased towards certain forms of "hunting" but I am realistic enough to understand that had I been brought up in other countries , with other cultures or even with different parents I would more than likely have a different perspective of hunting and life in general .

As hunters we need to try and understand the differences in hunting practices due to culture , environment , law , social economic circumstances , etc , but at the same time we should not support or condone hunting practices that tarnish the image of hunters and can be regarded as unethical . ( So here is the big problem again , who decides what is ethical and what is not ? Is it ethical just because it is legal - very often legality is not in line with being fair or correct it is purely a legal requirement ? The age old debate with no clear answer , and everyone thinking their perspective is correct . )

Is it fair to judge the character , integrity and ethics of another hunter based on the assumption he/she has hunted less than you or in less destinations than you ? Does having more opportunity to hunt make one a better hunter ?

I know people that have been "hunting" for decades and have killed many animals but I would not consider their version of hunting to be fair and ethical .

Within reason we need to be tolerant of each others cultures and methods of hunting for the future of the "sport" . I do not have all the answers but I do know that being over emotional , disrespectful , intolerant and rude to each other as "hunters " is not the solution .

Maybe the principle of "not judging a man ( hunter ) until your have walked a mile in his shoes " should apply ?

Now just to wait and see how many times I get called a fcktard or a troll . ( I wanted to put a laughing emoji here but havent a clue how to do it )
I think the point that frustrates so many, is the OP's certainty in drawing a world-wide set of ethical conclusions about appropriate forms of hunting without having any first hand experience anywhere but YouTube and his backyard. More to the point, he then postulates those conclusions among a group of fellow hunters who have taken game in a lot of different environments, using a lot of different methods, to include spot and stalk that same backyard.

The two most difficult animals that I have hunted anywhere are free range mature (5 1/2 +) whitetails and leopard. In most of their habitat, neither responds well to spot and stalk tactics. Both make the average South African fenced antelope look mentally and instinctively deficient.

Where and when I was born in Southeast Louisiana, the traditional way to hunt whitetail was to drive them with hounds. This tradition evolved because the coastal jungles of Southeast Louisiana were virtually impossible to hunt by any other means. In recent decades, due primarily to smaller properties, hunting deer has evolved in those forests to hunting from tree stands. Often shooting lanes are cleared where deer movement is likely. What is still no more effective now than it was 65 years ago is blundering around those swamps trying to stalk a deer.

Continental Europe and its careful game management offer yet another complicating set of conditions in many areas. Selective take demands very careful selective observation. That can not be done very effectively creeping around a deciduous forest in the Spessart Mountains of Franconia trying to determine if a patch of red is a barren or nursing hind.

I would simply suggest that broad reaching conclusions should be based upon very broad experience.
 

BigSteve57

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So by your own reasoning is not using a rifle giving you an unfair advantage over your quarry. Should you not have limited your hunting to the use of a stick or a rock.
The crap brought up by the OP is posted from time to time.
I know those that hunt with muzzle loaders tell me I'm not an ethical hunter because I use a rifle. I also know bow hunters that tell me that I'm not an ethical hunter because I use a firearm. I suppose there's an atlatl crowd and as you mention, a rock & stick crowd, that think bows are unethical.

How does everyone feel about causing buffalo to stampede off a tall cliff as the native American Indians did? Too much like a scam to be considered ethical hunting?
 

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I grew up hunting whitetails by spot and stalk. It’s still my preference, but it can change for you unless you own the land you hunt on. Some areas that I have permission to hunt on I’m only allowed to sit in a stand. I can put it where I want…but I’m have to stay in it. His theory is that spot and stalk just drives the deer out to the neighbors. I dont think he knows what spot and stalk actually is and I’m not willing to argue the point.
Anyway, sometimes we sacrifice our preferences in order to hunt at all.
 

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My favorite way to hunt deer is using dogs. I shoot the deer while it’s running at a high rate of speed across a road not big enough to fit your truck down. It is quite enjoyable. I shoot them with buckshot out of my Benelli during this adventure. It’s awesome!
Why dogs? Because hearing a pack of hounds coming from a mile away is a sweet sound. And shooting at a deer close range going full speed with-hounds close behind is very exciting.
And have you ever tried to crawl on your hands and knees through a 5 year old cutover while it’s 95 degrees in rattlesnake country trying to jump a deer?
Or trying to kill a deer in a thick swamp where your visibility is 5 yards?
Thank goodness for the hounds.
 
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Tra3

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And in the frigid north we consider snow as an important benefit or detriment to a hunt.
Fresh snow? You will have good hunting, unless it is too much snow or snowing too hard and the deer don’t move.
Old snow? Too crunchy and loud, impossible to sneak up on anything, one must use a stand or shoot over 200 yards.
Thin snow on leaves? Also to much noise.
Each place has its hunting style. I hope to try many of the different options.
 

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If you think you can do a thing. Or you think you can not. You are right. Henry Ford.
 

Tam Dl

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There is sport hunting, and hunting for other reasons. Sport hunting is conducted in accordance with rules, and ethical consideration. Part of the reason for this is because one is in some form of contest, either just the spirit of a contest, or possibly trying to get some recognition for records, or things like grand slams. So there was a guy who claimed to have shot the NA grand slam with a longbow. The fact he did not use a longbow (though in many other regards admirably fulfilled the test) is a problem should anyone else want to achieve that result for real. There is the possibility that non-adherence to rules will deny a more rightful contestant.

In NA, the game is generally not owned by the land owner, and one is hunting for a limited resource, a classic tragedy of the commons exercise. So people engaged in a lower form of hunting, that is likely to allow them to make a harvest where adherents to the rules might not, are going to be held to be cheating. A classic example of this was when crossbow hunters edged their way into bowhunting with the obvious intent of gaining the prize of special seasons with minimal effort or commitment. I could argue on the crossbow side, though my heart is not in it, but you can see how different approaches have the effect of taking someone else's cookies.

In much of the world landowners own the game which has the double effect that there is no general competition for it, and that there is an incentive to sell it however that may be done. Claiming fair chase without really adhering to it, would certainly be an advantage in some commercial situations.
 

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There is sport hunting, and hunting for other reasons. Sport hunting is conducted in accordance with rules, and ethical consideration. Part of the reason for this is because one is in some form of contest, either just the spirit of a contest, or possibly trying to get some recognition for records, or things like grand slams. So there was a guy who claimed to have shot the NA grand slam with a longbow. The fact he did not use a longbow (though in many other regards admirably fulfilled the test) is a problem should anyone else want to achieve that result for real. There is the possibility that non-adherence to rules will deny a more rightful contestant.

In NA, the game is generally not owned by the land owner, and one is hunting for a limited resource, a classic tragedy of the commons exercise. So people engaged in a lower form of hunting, that is likely to allow them to make a harvest where adherents to the rules might not, are going to be held to be cheating. A classic example of this was when crossbow hunters edged their way into bowhunting with the obvious intent of gaining the prize of special seasons with minimal effort or commitment. I could argue on the crossbow side, though my heart is not in it, but you can see how different approaches have the effect of taking someone else's cookies.

In much of the world landowners own the game which has the double effect that there is no general competition for it, and that there is an incentive to sell it however that may be done. Claiming fair chase without really adhering to it, would certainly be an advantage in some commercial situations.
I think I have deciphered this, and assuming I have, I have no clue whatsoever what you are trying to say.

On private property anywhere I have lived in the United States - I won't speak for Mexico or Canada - Game can not be hunted by anyone without the landowner's consent (though I believe the same is true with respect to both our neighbors). I suppose the landowner may not have legal "title" to the game, but no one is hunting it without his expressed permission. That includes a lot of country and a vast number of game animals here in the States. States set general quotas, but land or lease holders with large properties generally utilize specific quotas, even hunting seasons, developed in concert with the respective game departments separate from general state limits on take.

Those mechanisms for managing game on private property or leases should be quite familiar to any revier holder or land owner holder in Germany, Austria, or most of central Europe. The difference is that the United States, through state and federal holdings, makes opportunity available to the more general public rather than just a landed or wealthy hunting aristocracy.

Therefore, with respect to your "tragedy of the commons." the United States, and I would argue Canada as well, has done a remarkable of job of maintaining reasonable public access to hunting opportunities on public land. Again, those hunters, poor, middle class or wealthy, almost always act lawfully, respect the game they are hunting, and have a strong sense of ethics.
 
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