Electric cars are not as great for the planet as we are told it would seem....

[spike.t]

Are electric cars the new 'diesel scandal' waiting to happen?

Today, diesel is a dirty word and many countries penalise drivers with extra congestion charges and vehicle duty. But could electric cars be the future for all? BJORN LOMBORG finds out.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[R eight]

I don't know ....at AUD$1.96 per litre for unleaded and AUD$1.74 for diesel it's looking pretty good especially if you've got solar panels the roof of the house. And for the sake of our US cousins it's about 3.7 litres to the US gallon and about 4.5 litres to the Imperial gallon. And as I type 1 AUD is worth US 71 cents.

 

[PerH]

If all get a electric car all the taxes,fees,vat have to go somewhere since no petrol,diesels around.

Here they have already started, the prife for booth passes rises,parking, soon more buy tax on them and such. A new golden fleece is ready to be washed for its gold dust.

 

[spike.t]

I don't know ....at AUD$1.96 per litre for unleaded and AUD$1.74 for diesel it's looking pretty good especially if you've got solar panels the roof of the house. And for the sake of our US cousins it's about 3.7 litres to the US gallon and about 4.5 litres to the Imperial gallon. And as I type 1 AUD is worth US 71 cents.

You couldn't give me an electric vehicle........but then I like V8s and V12 engines ...and I enjoy driving proper cars

 

[TTundra]

I think EV's will continue to grow, but like Ford stated in the US, there is a massive market for rural, farm, work, outdoors crowds that can't be serviced by electric stations until a massive infrastructure is created. Even then, millions of gas/diesel vehicles won't just go away let alone average people spend 2x-10x the cost for an EV to save 1k-3k a year in fuel.

When a company produces a full crew cab 6.5' bed pickup EV with 550 mile range and 500hp and 800lbs torque that can charge in 10-15 minutes with built in gas/fuel generator for emergency power uses while off grid, I may try one. I don't have time to wait 30 minutes let alone 8 hours for charging every 200-300 miles when traveling.

 

[browningbbr]

I read an article recently that claimed the electrical infrastructure supplying an average city street in most countries could only support the charging of two Tesla (type) vehicles per city block. So if everyone has an electric car, most of the neighbors are going to have to walk to work!

Full disclosure: In addition to my Toyota 4Runner, I have a plug-in Prius. There are two reasons that I have the Prius. First, I have solar electric with batteries and I only use half of the power it generates. Having the plug-in allows me to do all my local driving for free. Second, the GD electrical utility used a legal loophole to stop net metering and now pays me three cents per KWH but charges me thirteen cents per KWH if I pull power off the grid. This screwed my return on investment, so I needed a way to recoup the return.

As R eight noted, e cars make sense if you already have solar panels. Otherwise, it's a fantasy.

 

[BourbonTrail]

My issue is in the manufacture of batteries for all these “green” vehicles. Where does everyone expect to dig up all these rare earth metals (3rd world countries) and manufacture millions/billions of EV vehicles?

I know the automotive industry is planning to build batteries here in Kentucky (considered by many America’s 3rd world), I also know that battery chemicals are exceedingly toxic, and that Kentucky has more miles of coastline than any state but Alaska (rivers y’all). Get ready for some Heavy Metal Bourbon

 

[Rubberhead]

The environmental movement was taken-over by anti-capitalist 25 years ago. Electric cars are just one more manifestation on their trickery to get the simple-minded politicians to regulated against the will of their own constituencies. Of course, they can write taxes or subsidies that make these environmentally and economically harmful practices look as if they make "economic sense" but it is completely artificial. All electric vehicles are a good example of this. Incrementally, EV's are 100% powered by dispatchable fossil fueled generation.

 

[GuttormG]

I read an article recently that claimed the electrical infrastructure supplying an average city street in most countries could only support the charging of two Tesla (type) vehicles per city block. So if everyone has an electric car, most of the neighbors are going to have to walk to work!

Thar must be a city with really shitty infrastructure.

Electric cars are good for the local enviroment where they are used (emissions,noise), as for microparticles from tyres and the road-same as any other car.

In the big picture, electric cars is a bluff.

They are hot here in Norway, because the are not taxed.
This winter-charging one has cost more then same energy bought as petrol or diesel (because europe hasfucked up its electric balance by shutting down coal, oil gas and nuclear power plants without having a reliable alternatives).

 

[CBH Australia]

I think Australia is too vast and has too many rural areas to utilise EVs to their full potential. Many areas won't be on mains power and simply have large areas and utilise 4wd vehicles, motorbikes and light aircraft. I guess aircraft are not going ev yet.
My town of 18,000 doesn't really have any docks available and Adelaide a capital city as little over 500km making 30 minute a detour necessary to stop and charge another 30 odd minutes. All the we hope increasing the duration of the journey by perhaps 25% .

 

[GuttormG]

The next hoax is hydrogen and amonia as fuel...

 

[PARA45]

I've been looking for the meme that shows the pipe line, and a mine where they get the minerals to make the batteries. Very disturbing. Also, what will happen to all those batteries once they have reached their life cycle? I'll stick to my diesel truck until I'm forced to change.

 

[Rubberhead]

I read an article recently that claimed the electrical infrastructure supplying an average city street in most countries could only support the charging of two Tesla (type) vehicles per city block.

Thar must be a city with really [bad] infrastructure.

What browningbbr read is right and it has nothing to do with crappy infrastructure. It's just that EV charging using a high capacity charging station can double a residential users instantaneous electric load and the system wasn't designed for that. It's not a bad design either. It's just that the designers, 10 or more years ago never expected EV charging stations to become common. Even if they had anticipated it, no one would have supported them doubling the design (and cost) of the distribution infrastructure just in case EV's become popular. Again, the cost and environmental footprint of EVs is purposefully hidden from the "consuming public".

 

[Challer]

Electric cars are great from a performance standpoint. But are far less green than any modern diesel. The chemicals for the batteries are a serious problem and we couldn't get this made in the US with our EPA. Second, you have to evaluate the energy source. Solar panels are horrible both in manufacture and in practice (we're denuding entire mountains to install them) and are all made in China. The majority of windmills are environmentally a disaster, the highest resource (like concrete and steel) for megawatt, the blades are replaced and buried every few years and the gearboxes fail with regularity. If we want an electric car future, it will have to be nuclear based with all new T&D infrastructure.

 

[Rubberhead]

Electric cars are great from a performance standpoint. But are far less green than any modern diesel. The chemicals for the batteries are a serious problem and we couldn't get this made in the US with our EPA. Second, you have to evaluate the energy source. Solar panels are horrible both in manufacture and in practice (we're denuding entire mountains to install them) and are all made in China. The majority of windmills are environmentally a disaster, the highest resource (like concrete and steel) for megawatt, the blades are replaced and buried every few years and the gearboxes fail with regularity. If we want an electric car future, it will have to be nuclear based with all new T&D infrastructure.

[Applies only to the US since I know nothing about the electric grid in other countries]
Oh man, you were prefect until..."with all new T&D infrastructure."

Load growth over the past 20 years has been almost non-existent. The call for new T&D is coming for regulated utilities trying to build up their rate of return - it is almost entirely unnecessary.

 

[GuttormG]

A standard charger for installation inn your parking spot/carport/garage runs of 240 volt/10 amps.

 

[Challer]

[Applies only to the US since I know nothing about the electric grid in other countries]
Oh man, you were prefect until..."with all new T&D infrastructure."

Load growth over the past 20 years has been almost non-existent. The call for new T&D is coming for regulated utilities trying to build up their rate of return - it is almost entirely unnecessary.

Except you got to get that electricity to those cars. The US currently generates about 4,000 TWh of electricity. If we replaced all cars with electric, that is an additional 1,200 TWh.

We may not agree, but my take after 37 years in the industry is that the US grid has been a mess for decades and the problem is so complex, no one is willing to even put forth a real plan.

Now, I didn't even mention that every renewable facility - because the sun and wind are not 100%, always have a shadow plant - gas turbines - close by, running at idle to deal with minute by minute wind and solar changes. Running at idle is not green at all, but there is no other choice. Batteries can't do it except at a very small level. Pumped storage helps but I live near the two largest ones and you can't get them built anymore.

Thus nuclear is the only path and the grid needs to be expanded to do so. Now, try getting a T&D power line permit. Gas pipelines are easier. The rest of the world is building new nukes while in the US we continue to shut them down

 

[Rubberhead]

A standard charger for installation inn your parking spot/carport/garage runs of 240 volt/10 amps.

With a standard charger it takes almost 17 hours to charge enough to drive 100 miles.

 

[YancyW]

With a standard charger it takes almost 17 hours to charge enough to drive 100 miles.

What's, the issue, doesn't everyone live 3 miles from their work and kid's school?

 

[Rubberhead]

We may not agree, but my take after 37 years in the industry is that the US grid has been a mess for decades and the problem is so complex, no one is willing to even put forth a real plan.

You've got me by 2 years...but I have been responsible for dispatching a NERC control area, been responsible for transmission planning using PTI's PSSE load flow program, and I testify frequently on these topics in state and federal courts, legislatures and commissions. Things are a mess, we agree on that.