Difference between the 450/400 and the .450 3¼

[Eventually_Africa_Again]

Hello all!

I am thinking that maybe it's time to take the plunge and pick up a double rifle. I have a nice bolt action .404 and the main thing holding me back was the overlap, I just couldn't get myself to buy a double that would obsolete the .404 and the .404 is about as much kick as I can comfortably handle. Also my wife razzes me about the .404 as it is since here in N.A. there's nothing that really justifies it's use. Anyway I have always had a bit of a hankering for a 450/400 but in doing my research I came across the .450 3 1/4 and now I am confused. They are listed as 2 distinct cartridges, I see both (I think) in doubles but I cannot find a write up telling me the difference between the two! So, gentlemen and women of the jury, I am turning to you. Are the 450/400 and the .450 3 1/4 the same cartridge? If not, does one have a massive leg up on the other? And finally (perhaps most importantly) can anyone give me something to justify the overlap to my wife??
As always I thank you for your help and look forward to reading what you have to say!

 

[spike.t]

https://www.safariclub.org/blog/tale-two-450s

 

[cmk]

There is also a shorter version, the 450/400 2 3/8", which may be more known (at least to some people in Switzerland) under the 'metric' name 10.3x60R. If I've understood things correctly, it is the minimum cartridge (or bore-size, really) allowed for big game such as red deer and wild boar in one of the Swiss regions(?) (kanton - not really a state but perhaps more like a county). Sorry, I don't really know enough of political governance lingo to classify a kanton correctly.

http://cartridgecollector.net/103-x-60r-swiss

 

[Eventually_Africa_Again]

There is also a shorter version, the 450/400 2 3/8", which may be more known (at least to some people in Switzerland) under the 'metric' name 10.3x60R. If I've understood things correctly, it is the minimum cartridge (or bore-size, really) allowed for big game such as red deer and wild boar in one of the Swiss regions(?) (kanton - not really a state but perhaps more like a county). Sorry, I don't really know enough of political governance lingo to classify a kanton correctly.

http://cartridgecollector.net/103-x-60r-swiss

The plot thickens! I also read the article Spike.T posted, that was a great breakdown!

 

[BeeMaa]

@spike.t, beat me to the punch.
I remembered reading that recently and was looking for it.
Thanks.

@Eventually_Africa_Again
Explain to your wife that one is for Elephant the other for Buffalo.
That's why they must have special engravings to designate each of them.
There is no overlap, just some room in the safe for another.

 

[Eventually_Africa_Again]

@spike.t, beat me to the punch.
I remembered reading that recently and was looking for it.
Thanks.

@Eventually_Africa_Again
Explain to your wife that one is for Elephant the other for Buffalo.
That's why they must have special engravings to designate each of them.
There is no overlap, just some room in the safe for another.

Ha! Now that's a grand idea!

 

[AZDAVE]

The 450/400 3in is the most common and easiest to find ammo for. Most are regulated with 400gr 40 cal bullet at 2050-2150 recoil is a bit less than your 404. I used it on my 2018 safari for the hippo in my avatar and roan.

The 450NE 3 1/4 is a 45 cal bullet of 480gr at 2150. It is the round that the 458WM was invented to match in a bolt gun the recoil will be similar to your 404 or a little bit more . I used one on my 2015 safari for buffalo.


The 450/400 compares to the 404 and the 450NE compares to a 458WM

 

[Tanks]

Think of it this way. The 450 NE is 20% more powerful than a 450/400 with a larger diameter bullet.

So, it doesn't replace your .404J, but complements it.

I actually just recently bought one to complement my .500 NE.

Also, if you are a handloader then you have ton of options in .458 caliber bullets to test and try. For the African DG I'd regulate 500 grain solids and softs. For fun and NA game you have a lot of options to try.

 

[ms86]

Just to add, @Eventually_Africa_Again, assuming in the original post you meant comparing a 450/400 3" to a 450 (NE) 3 1/4". In which case, the above posts are correct (including the helpful reference to the Craig Boddington article).

However, there is also the 450/400 NE 3 1/4" which is comparable in performance to the 450/400 3" (though the two cartridges are not interchangeable). Sometimes you see the 450/400 3" referred to as the .400 Jeffery Nitro Express to avoid this confusion. I believe the 3" version may have been developed to solve some extraction problems with the longer case in double rifles. Most modern chamberings you see for sale are in the 3" version but a lot of older guns are chambered for 3 1/4".

There is also a 450/400 BPE (black powder express) 3 1/4" which is totally dissimilar from all these others as its for black powder whereas the 450/400 NE cartridges built on the BPE by loading the cartridges with cordite. The BPE version would be an interesting cartridge for medium-size game like deer but certainly not DG or other thick-skinned African game.

 

[jacques smith]

Just a thought, u could buy a 450/400= less recoil and then sell me the 404J. Cheers

 

[Eventually_Africa_Again]

The 450/400 3in is the most common and easiest to find ammo for. Most are regulated with 400gr 40 cal bullet at 2050-2150 recoil is a bit less than your 404. I used it on my 2018 safari for the hippo in my avatar and roan.

The 450NE 3 1/4 is a 45 cal bullet of 480gr at 2150. It is the round that the 458WM was invented to match in a bolt gun the recoil will be similar to your 404 or a little bit more . I used one on my 2015 safari for buffalo.


The 450/400 compares to the 404 and the 450NE compares to a 458WM[/QUOT

First of all, that's a beautiful hippo and I hope to add one to my collection someday! Now, about the 450 N.E. I have to say I'm tempted. I guess the main reason I was interested in the 450/400 is because Jim Corbett used one for his Tiger hunts in India and I've been reading his stories since I was an itty-bitty kiddo. Side note: If you don't want your kids to read something, telling them "it's for adults and is too scary" is a great way to ensure they go the opposite of your wishes and read it all! But yea, he first planted the idea of a 450/400 in my brain and now that I'm at the point where I can actually consider getting one I'm torn about the old nostalgia vs something like the 450 N.E. which will kick just a little harder but deliver a much larger payload, or at least it seems that way on paper so far.

 

[Eventually_Africa_Again]

Just a thought, u could buy a 450/400= less recoil and then sell me the 404J. Cheers

I'd be a liar if I said I hadn't considered doing that, but I'm just not quite ready to give her up yet. She shoots like a dream, touching holes at 50, very tight at 100 and I hate to let an accurate rifle leave the safe. Which is why the safe is getting too full heh.

 

[Tanks]

...Now, about the 450 N.E. I have to say I'm tempted. ..
now that I'm at the point where I can actually consider getting one I'm torn about the old nostalgia vs something like the 450 N.E. which will kick just a little harder but deliver a much larger payload, or at least it seems that way on paper so far.

Let me throw something else into the equation. The .470 NE. It is the ballistic equivalent of the .450 NE and was designed to replace it due to the .458 caliber ban.

A lot more double rifles in .470 NE sell each year than the .450 NE. Handloaders load the .450 with 500 grain bullets which is what the factory load for the .470 comes with (factory load for .450 is 480 grains). Also, a lot more vendors support the .470 NE than the .450 NE.

However, the two calibers are two peas in a pod and you can't go wrong with either.

 

[Eventually_Africa_Again]

Let me throw something else into the equation. The .470 NE. It is the ballistic equivalent of the .450 NE and was designed to replace it due to the .458 caliber ban.

A lot more double rifles in .470 NE sell each year than the .450 NE. Handloaders load the .450 with 500 grain bullets which is what the factory load for the .470 comes with (factory load for .450 is 480 grains). Also, a lot more vendors support the .470 NE than the .450 NE.

However, the two calibers are two peas in a pod and you can't go wrong with either.

This is one of the reasons I love this site, you come in with 1-2 options and you leave with 5-7! Always interested in something new, but I think I've read that the .470 has so much recoil most guys would prefer to just step up the the 500 Nitro Express. Of course I could be getting my rifles mixed up!

 

[Tanks]

... Always interested in something new, but I think I've read that the .470 has so much recoil most guys would prefer to just step up the the 500 Nitro Express. Of course I could be getting my rifles mixed up!

No, recoil between the two are very similar with the same weight of rifle per calculations. .500 NE with a rifle weighing a tad more more is 20 ft/lbs more. (64 vs 84).

However, I am going by calculations. Someone that has shot both the .450 and the .470 can give you more info on the perceived recoil between the two.

 

[Tanks]

Adding fuel to the fire, this looks like a great buy. New rifle at a discounted price.

https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...rney-carron-double-rifle.cfm?gun_id=101398813

 

[Eventually_Africa_Again]

Oh, well that's grand!!

 

[Opposite Pole]

the .470 has so much recoil most guys would prefer to just step up the the 500 Nitro Express.

When ordering my double I shot two, almost identical rifles at the factory one after another - 470NE and 500NE. This was to choose one for my rifle. Recoil between the two did not feel very different but it took somewhat longer to get back on the target with the 500NE. I only fired two shots from each so I have very limited experience with the 500 but I reckon with practise difference on the shoulder would be negligible so choose your poison using other factors. Few little things added up made me pick 470NE over 500NE but from shooters perspective it’s not a large difference so I see why someone would just want to go bigger.

 

[AZDAVE]

I handled that rifle that @Tanks mentioned at DSC and it is a very nice double. The difference in felt recoil between the 450-470-500NE if the rifles are of proportional weight is minimal. I don't find the recoil to be bad till you get in the 577NE and up. You might want to lay out what you intend to do with the rifle, any of the 450/400-500NE will take anything that walks on the planet. If you are going to hunt a number of elephants you might want to look at the 500, if your thoughts are on ammo availability should the airlines loose the ammo you would probably find that 470 is the most available in camps and stores in Africa. One of the African PH's please correct me if I am off on that comment. If you are looking for a round that has the most reloading components available in the US the 450 wins. If you are planning on a few buffalo and larger plains game the 450/400 is the lowest recoiling and most like to be shot well by a client. Find a double that fits, buy it, shoot it ALLLLLOOOTTT, and go hunt with it.

 

[Eventually_Africa_Again]

I handled that rifle that @Tanks mentioned at DSC and it is a very nice double. The difference in felt recoil between the 450-470-500NE if the rifles are of proportional weight is minimal. I don't find the recoil to be bad till you get in the 577NE and up. You might want to lay out what you intend to do with the rifle, any of the 450/400-500NE will take anything that walks on the planet. If you are going to hunt a number of elephants you might want to look at the 500, if your thoughts are on ammo availability should the airlines loose the ammo you would probably find that 470 is the most available in camps and stores in Africa. One of the African PH's please correct me if I am off on that comment. If you are looking for a round that has the most reloading components available in the US the 450 wins. If you are planning on a few buffalo and larger plains game the 450/400 is the lowest recoiling and most like to be shot well by a client. Find a double that fits, buy it, shoot it ALLLLLOOOTTT, and go hunt with it.

Hello there! Alright, I think you laid it out pretty well. I am mostly interested in Buffalo, Hippo and maybe far in the future a Lion so no Pachyderms (unless an amazing deal comes up on a Rogue or wounded animal) or Rhinos are on my list of future hunts. That being the case it seems like either the 450/400 or the 450 N.E. would be about as much rifle as I am going to need I think. Does that sound about right? And if it's between those two I suppose ammo availability will be a key deciding factor, not just in Africa but here in the states so that I can log those training hours to make sure that if the rifle performs it's duty well I will be able to do the same!