DGR stock configuration for iron sights?

[DaddyFlip]

I've tried several site: searches on the subject without success. I want a bolt action in 458 Win Mag to use with irons as primary or only sighting system. I recently purchased a new Portugal manufactured M70 Safari Express and the irons are useless, I'm told due to the straight comb and wide cheek piece.

What specific make/model of rifle should I be looking for; used is fine? Or what are proven configurations for a scope less hunting rifle? Thanks!

 

[Ray B]

Mostly older (pre-1970) rifles were stocked with iron sights as primary. Even more precise, the stocks on pre-AR military rifles were set for iron sight use. The stock on the M-14 was probably the peak of modern and iron sights. I think the stocks would be the same on the M1A which is the "civilian" version of the M14. These are semi-auto but if you measure the drop from line of sight and/or bore to grip, drop to comb and drop to heel these measurements would approximate the same drops on a bolt action iron sight primary rifle.

 

[Rule 303]

I would head into a gun shop and try the Rugger 77's. If you cant find a rifle that suits try looking at aftermarket open sights that are taller than those on current standard rifles.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

What's the problem? Sights too high or too low? I have 1990s Winchester Safari Express sights on both my 03A3 Springfield and 98 Mauser and they line up fine when the quick detach scopes are off. These sights were obviously made for Winchester by Williams Gunsight (rear sight now discontinued). I did have to order new beads from them for both rifles to get the proper height. Not surprising as the sights were second hand.

Williams customer support is great.

 

[USMA84DAB]

A straight comb is exactly what you want to attenuate recoil. If it is angled downwards the rifle begins to recoil upwards into your face and pulls your line of sight off of the animal. If angled upwards (heel end higher than action end) it will strike you in the face even less.

I am not sure if you mean cheekrest on the side of the butt, or the top edge of the comb. A wide comb will be more comfortable and less knife-like recoiling into your face. The cheekrest on the side of the butt seems to me to be useless - your cheekbone goes anchored into the comb.

Adding an aperture sight to the rear of the rifle should be quite doable which will increase the distance between front and rear sights, adding to accuracy potential. NECG may be the place to go for a great aperture sight. Get a ghost ring aperture so you are quick to find the animal in the heat of the moment. I drill out my M1 Garand apertures - target size apertures are great for high-power matches but prevent enough light from coming through the sight in "combat"/hunting DG scenarios.

Likewise, changing the front sight blade to a white bead, or better yet a fiber optic tube should be quite doable as well.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Fiber optic front beads are relatively fragile and don't work inside a protective hood (not enough light). Mine didn't anyway. I switched back to standard gold bead that I ultimately painted white with a daub of white primer.

 

[USMA84DAB]

Ontario Hunter - one could go without a hood since the NECG blade has a steel loop over each end of the fiber optic tube, or use a hood with opening to admit light, but still provide a cage around the optic tube - or just as you did, create an ivory bead. Each rifleman finds his own Goldilocks arrangement.

 

[Boone66]

The biggest thing is stock fit, a comb on a gun made for a scope is higher then one made for just iron sights, just either replace the stock, or remove the excess wood from yours.

 

[zephyr]

We are all built differently.. and one stock does not fit all..
When building my DGR, iron sights only, spend an hour or two with the gunsmith on stock fit getting the drop and cast to my liking
Boone66 is on the right track remove some wood, while your lowering the comb ...IF... needed you could also work in a little cast to further align your eye
Good luck let us know what you decide

 

[MS 9x56]

I've tried several site: searches on the subject without success. I want a bolt action in 458 Win Mag to use with irons as primary or only sighting system. I recently purchased a new Portugal manufactured M70 Safari Express and the irons are useless, I'm told due to the straight comb and wide cheek piece.

What specific make/model of rifle should I be looking for; used is fine? Or what are proven configurations for a scope less hunting rifle? Thanks!

You can’t go wrong with a used Mannlicher Schoenauer in 458.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Ontario Hunter - one could go without a hood since the NECG blade has a steel loop over each end of the fiber optic tube, or use a hood with opening to admit light, but still provide a cage around the optic tube - or just as you did, create an ivory bead. Each rifleman finds his own Goldilocks arrangement.

I am not particularly enamored of NEGC express sights ... on either end. The front sight slides in from the front. It can't be "pushed" sideways to adjust like Williams sights. I can only imagine NECG ventilated sight hood must grab a lot of debris. Fiber optic bead is not much use if it's covered in dust. And whitling on rear sights with a file ... well ... that's just caveman stuff. I don't care for technocrap but that's way too primitive for me. My 1990s Winchester Express rear sights are adjustable all ways: up, down, left, right. When I found the rear sight adjustment for 03A3 was approaching windage limit, I simply moved the front bead over a bit. Didn't have enough elevation adjustment on the rear sight for 98 Mauser so I ordered a different height front bead.

I believe we can make the OP's gun work for him without extreme stock adjustment. Fix the sights so they work with his stock. He hasn't complained about recoil (amazing as it is afterall a 458 Win) so I don't think the stock drop is too far off the mark.

 

[DaddyFlip]

Yes to all- no bad answers or wrong tracks from you all so far. Relative to my line of sight, the irons are too LOW on the new M70; I can't get low enough on the wood to line up the irons. Same is true of an A-bolt Stainless Stalker I have with the old Williams sights. For scope use, these are fine and I'm going to keep these scope only or primary for now. The 458 will be a new acquisition and I want to get one with a better stock configuration. I was hoping some of the older rifles were a better choice.

Great idea to measure off military or something older I might have, like a Garand or M700 from the 1960s. Even Marlin and Henry levers are great with irons.

I don't have any brand preference and don't own a Ruger, so will look into the M77. Even used however, the British makers are out of my price range.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Yes to all- no bad answers or wrong tracks from you all so far. Relative to my line of sight, the irons are too LOW on the new M70; I can't get low enough on the wood to line up the irons. Same is true of an A-bolt Stainless Stalker I have with the old Williams sights. For scope use, these are fine and I'm going to keep these scope only or primary for now. The 458 will be a new acquisition and I want to get one with a better stock configuration. I was hoping some of the older rifles were a better choice.

Great idea to measure off military or something older I might have, like a Garand or M700 from the 1960s. Even Marlin and Henry levers are great with irons.

I don't have any brand preference and don't own a Ruger, so will look into the M77. Even used however, the British makers are out of my price range.

Look at Williams online catalogue for higher rear sight and/or front bead and/or front ramp. And give them a call. Very helpful folks. I'm fairly certain they are still making the sights for Winchester. I know they don't make my rear sights any longer. Mine have fold down rear leaf which was dropped for permanent upright leaf but otherwise it's the same. As I recall, it can be ordered with different height bases for different contour barrels. If you get a sight base for a thinner contour barrel (e.g. for .243) and put it on your thicker caliber/contour barrel, that should raise your rear sight significantly. You will also likely need to raise the front sight ramp and/or bead. Does your front sight have a screw visible on the ramp to hold it to the barrel? Hopefully. That means it's not soldered on. There will be a second screw in the dovetail underneath the front sight bead. Williams is good about returns if stuff isn't buggered so you can do a lot of trial and error. They sell a sight pusher for moving/removing front bead or you can find someone at a pistol club who has one. They also come up on ebay all the time very reasonably. Since you have two guns that need adjusting, buying a pusher would probably be a good investment.

Something else to consider is relocating the rear sight rearward, i.e. further up the contour towards chamber. This will also raise the sight. A gunsmith will have to drill and tap a new screw hole. But not a big deal. Should be able to do it in a matter of minutes. Relocating the rear sight might interfere with the objective bell on a scope but it's really unlikely anyone would want to install a high magnification scope on a 458 anyway. Applicable low power scopes will have no objective bell on the tube and a rear sight could literally fit underneath the scope if needed. Of course, raising the rear sight means you'll have to raise the front sight.

It appears to me the Winchester factory has taken a one-size-fits-all attitude when installing sights on these new rifles (not surprising as it = cheaper to produce!). Go ahead and try making the sights fit the gun/you before doing anything drastic re stock replacement or alteration.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Look at images of my guns. Those are the highest ramps Williams makes. Are yours comparable?

Edit: Correction. The 03A3 in the bottom image has the highest ramp they make (for thin contour 30-06 barrel). I remember now that I ordered a lower ramp for the thicker barrel on 404J Mauser. I mounted the rear base/sight on 03A3 and I placed it back further than I probably should have. Note how close it is to objective bell! Almost messed up eye relief if the scope had to be moved any further back. Gunsmith mounted rear base on 404 Mauser and he probably put it a bit far forward (but I can pick it up well looking over my glasses so there's that).

Both guns have QD scopes/rings so proper sight fitting was important.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

You will note that both my rifles have one-piece scope bases. I needed to mount the iron sights so I could see over the bases when scopes are quick detached. With slight Monte Carlo stocks I can acquire through the scope or with iron sights instantly. With lower European style stock comb I doubt acquisition would be as quick. Probably be hunting for both scope crosshairs and iron sights when gun was mounted.

 

[rookhawk]

I've tried several site: searches on the subject without success. I want a bolt action in 458 Win Mag to use with irons as primary or only sighting system. I recently purchased a new Portugal manufactured M70 Safari Express and the irons are useless, I'm told due to the straight comb and wide cheek piece.

What specific make/model of rifle should I be looking for; used is fine? Or what are proven configurations for a scope less hunting rifle? Thanks!

I'd suggest shaving down your gun stock. Remove the cheek piece. Change the drop at comb and drop at heel to an English dimensioned stock.

 

[DaddyFlip]

Update: I've been handling the new rifle more and have concluded that the problem might have been ME. I removed the scope and worked on my shouldering and cheeking technique. Before, I don't think I was really "getting into" the stock; now that I'm figuring that out, the sight alignment and picture is much improved. This is the first time I've tried to run a bolt gun with open sights; lever guns are much more forgiving in this area. FULL DISCLOSURE: I haven't shot this one yet. I'm sure once the recoil kicks in, I'll be getting into the stock quickly and firmly. There still may be a little room to whittle on the stock, but as a last resort.