Current Production Weatherby DGR Opinion

[Killingtime]

What is your experience/opinion of the current production synthetic stocked Weatherby DGR? In particular your thoughts on the .460. Yes, I did a search and did not find what I’m wanting to read.

Thank you.

I saw a wood stocked 460 with a scope for 2100 at the cabelas in Wyoming Michigan yesterday when I was there few marks on the stock but was nice otherwise

 

[grand veneur]

I think that Weatherby rifles caliber 460 Weatherby Magnum with wood stocks are no longer in current production.

 

[Riflecrank]

Ah well I’d still own one

Re .378 WbyMag:
Had to find out what all the whining was about.
My first was a BRNO ZKK 602 .375 H&H that someone had cut down to 22" length, so I had it re-chambered to .378 WbyMag.
That was in 1998.
Factory Weatherby brand 300-gr FMJ RN (yellow box with tiger logo)
shot about 3-MOA for 3 shots and bolt lift was sticky, primers cratered, ejector mark/smear on brass.
I fired three more shots, no better, and 6-shot average at 5 yards was 2851 fps.
MV corrected = 2868 fps.
I figured 4" of shortening must have indeed lowered velocity about 120 fps, versus the claimed 3000 fps for 26" barrel. About 30 fps per inch.
Recoil was nowhere near the horrible of legend due to slowed velocity, but muzzle blast was.

Eventually I found a most accurate, trouble-free load with 300-gr Swifts and Sierra Game Kings, using 111.0 grains of IMR-7828.
The Sierra GK did 2747 fps, Swift did 2780 fps, 5-yard velocities from the 22" barrel.

Not so great way to make a .378 WbyMag shoot like a .375 WBY MAG, eh ?

A couple of years later I rechambered a CZ 550 Magnum .375 H&H with 25" factory barrel to .378 WbyMag. Pillars, glass bedding, and cross bolts, with CZ barrel recoil lug contraption glass bedded too.
The 111-gr charge of IMR-7828 with 300-gr Swift A-Frame gave 2878 fps at 5-yards so right about 2900 fps for MV, and 3 shots at 100 yards grouped under an inch.
A later lot of factory ammo did 2911 fps with 300-gr RN FMJ and grouped over 2-MOA for 3 shots at 100 yards. No pressure signs. Factory ammo had been tamed down by 2000 A.D.

Yet the factory .375 WBY MAG ammo with 300-gr Nosler bullets did an honest 2800 fps in 26" barrels and just over 2740 fps in my 24" barreled Winchester M70.
About identical to a .375 RUM, which I also have tried in 23" and 26" barrel lengths,
since my .378 WbyMag adventures.

I was young and foolish then.
I concluded that the stories of horrible recoil and poor results from a .378 WbyMag are due to light weight factory rifles that fit the shooter poorly plus excessive factory loads with poor bullets back in the old days.

Somebody had great results with a .375 WBY MAG Mark V DGR:

I would be proud of that rifle too.

PS: I have two factory take-off barrels for .378 WbyMag, both cut to 22" length.
One is for a Wby Mark V, the other is for the BRNO ZKK 602.
I will use them for either tomato stakes or rebar in a planned patio.

 

[Riflecrank]

Okay. I’ve read your post a couple times and plan to read it again; very important topic. Basically my take is there are two different sectional density measurements: 1) calculating an unfired bullet SD; and 2) SD of an expanding bullet after it enters the target. Also, bullet material and construction take precedence over SD which explains a lighter weight monometal bullet penetrating better than heavier cup & core. May not have that quite right. Anyway, it takes a lot of effort to prepare your response. Many thanks @Riflecrank.

Close enough.
Sectional density of a bullet sitting on the shelf is a pure number with no reality in physical units, since it is the weight of the bullet in pounds divided by the square of the bullet diameter in inches.
That is a calculation for a bullet with square cross section.
It is proportional to reality, thus very useful, and units would be real if the cross-sectional area of the round bullet was actually calculated.
Boy howdy would that complicate things, especially if you considered a dynamic sectional density where the cross-sectional area was changing instant-to-instant as bullet expanded and lost weight,
both of which would lower sectional density. Calculus required.

Impact momentum of bullet of a specified caliber is another great measure of penetration as long as bullet does not deform/expand, and impact velocities are in the happy window of 2200 to 2500 fps impact velocity.

 

[mark-hunter]

Blaser rifles are not CRF, but no one seems to criticize them or feel they are doomed when hunting dangerous game.

Mausers were designed for the worst conditions on the earth and muddy trench warfare. It is a good post of @One Day... on previous page
But blasers are criticised well enough, especially older model R93.
However, R8 has much less open public criticism.

Now, considering following:
R8 is not military gun designed for worst conditions of trench warfare or jungle war, but will work well if properly maintained.

Average foreign hunter in Africa will not take thousands of DG animals in his lifetime to test Blaser R8 to its limits.
He will take most often one to several buffalos, and eventually sporadic others of DG7 list.

Price and availability of Mausers CRF rifles on the market is becoming prohibitive.
Blaser R8 is cheaper then rigby or "Das Mauser".

There is overall lack of factory guns in DG calibers of whatever brand or action system there is while the choice of optional calibers is simply outstanding in Blaser r8 rifles..

R8 is then slowly becoming one of the best choices for modern African safari sport hunter, or international hunter. Take 375 barrel, hunt in Africa, Take 30-06 barrel, hunt in your own hack of woods.

Now, do I own Blaser r8?
No. My lucky option was to buy CRF ZKK 602. After all I do prefer CRF, but I do not disregard above said.
Did I hunt with Blaser R8 as rental gun?
Yes.
I can compare.

Also, as I was reading a lot of CRF and push feed debate, I tried to make short strokes, upside down recycling, and what not to compare various actions with dummy rounds.
And If I tried hard enough to jam the rifle, I managed to jam every system I tried, including push feeds, CRF, Blaser. There is no fool proof system, to be perfect compared to others.
Fool proof means training, and skill to handle own rifle, and due diligence to maintain the rifle.

 

[Schüler Jumbo]

I prefer any .458 caliber rifle, except the SAAMI .458 Lott.

Hi @Riflecrank, I hate to impose further on your time spent on this thread. As the thread closes out I’d like to hear your objection(s) to the .458 Lott. Most everything written touts the Lott as an improvement to the Winchester. In addition some articles state Winchester made a mistake in 1956 by not introducing a .458” caliber in a 2.850” length case. Thank you in advance.

 

[Fordy]

Gday
if one likes weatherby get it , get proficient with it & create muscle memory under stress situations is most important & you’ll be better equipped to handle what comes along with a lot less hang ups imo

Next part that often gets a bit of friction from some is high velocity & is one part of terminals I love researching in the field with critters that don’t understand what the hell we are talking about or what they were just impacted with but their reactions along with the impact to tip are pretty good @ telling the story lol

That overall leads us to the next part which one is left to actually look @ what actually killed the critter & how it did & one here that with respect there is too much “text book responses” ( I like those words but are borrowed off another member ) “with little understanding of consistency or what is really achievable taking into consideration of what occurred & how

For those that think velocity is not a advantage in the likes of the bigger chamberings of 375 cal re increased velocity impact in the case I see a bit on here which its old thoughts/ parameters & a classic is the on the shelf SD & @Riflecrank hit the mail on the head with it although his part on whatever he’s getting @ with calculus is over my head lol in this muppets ( that’s me ) world it’s terminal SD that matters not the on the shelf SD but is that the bottom line hmmm no just part of the lovely world of terminals

Cheers
Side note hmm @Riflecrank can i suggest you talk to Michael as this also has another level & as I’m a muppet as you know which I can’t explain it properly but I can say with a doubt another level is achievable also I’ll challenge that 2200/2500 impact window with a few facts on the next generation bullets that I’ve been gathering for a while now but let’s leave those for another day or till we get on the same page @ a minimum of what I’m even on about & a chat too Michael would be overdue I’d say & one I have more data for him but I’m also not far off heading to camel county that a bit more data will be undertaken also then time to put this together is another story as I’m not home long then moz is the next port of call

Sorry to be a bit cryptic & not relaying what has been done & probably would’ve been better in a pm but I also know I can’t relay it in a easy format so I’ll pass starting it off with the wrong page first & one you sir will get why I’m doing this I hope & it’s been in private as with respect it’s hard really hard to get a deep understanding let alone conversation of what’s happening as the old view interjections ( with respect ) don’t help especially myself as I’m already hard enough to understand but even more on extremely time poor & it’s time I’m better spent in the field studying what’s what or trying to understand it & relay /show what is happening
But the last page ( for now lol ) is “this is real” !!!
Also the critters haven’t argued as they are also showing” it’s real “

Will it be for everyone nope but it’s definitely one that opens up possibilities & challenge the old thoughts with pretty cool facts

Cheers

 

[Riflecrank]

Hi @Riflecrank, I hate to impose further on your time spent on this thread. As the thread closes out I’d like to hear your objection(s) to the .458 Lott. Most everything written touts the Lott as an improvement to the Winchester. In addition some articles state Winchester made a mistake in 1956 by not introducing a .458” caliber in a 2.850” length case. Thank you in advance.

Where do I begin !
Go to a web site named after a twenty-four-hour bonfire of the vanities,
in the forum named "Express Rifles and Big Bores Only"
and find the thread that is a sticky at top of that forum with the title
"The great 458 Winchester ... "
which started in January 2021 and alludes to another thread on an unmentionable forum that covered 2017 to 2021 IIRC.
I have repeated some highlights and lowlights of that near decade of posting here on africahunting.com already.
Maybe search here first before asking me to spew again ?

 

[Riflecrank]

Fordy,
I am on the same page as you.
I started my ramblings on terminal ballistics with crediting
"... the research and field test results of Michael458 at McCourry Institute of Ballistics."
I quit my own tests with the "Iron Waterboard Buffalo" bullet trap after I found the science at MIB. Whew !

The 2200 to 2500 fps impact window is for brass and copper monometal FN solids for optimizing depth of penetration in 25 to 50 yard shooting.
There are quickly diminishing returns on penetration depth for higher velocity impacts, and increasing detriments to both the shooter and shootee receiving the impacts from both ends of the rifle.
Just call that 2200 to 2500 fps impact range the "efficiency range for FN solids."

I fancy the Raptors and Stone Hammers and TSX bullets at highest practical MV of course. Even the North Fork soft points will expand to maximum diameter at fairly low impact velocity, but fold back the bonded lead mushroom to smaller diameter at higher velocity, ahead of the solid copper shank, and penetrate deeper after decreasing the size of their drag chutes. They are a refined Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, another great soft that came before, and lately has been trying to catch up to North Fork on the refinements.
The more speed the better.
A 404-gr/.458 Stone Hammer at 2900 fps would be the cat's meow in a .460 WBY MAG Mark V DGR,
just to bring this back to On Topic.

 

[Schüler Jumbo]

Found the “Great .458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once” Thread. Reading it now. Very preliminary observation is a throat matter.

 

[Riflecrank]

THROAT THROAT THROAT.
Physics does not lie.
You can fix a SAAMI .458 Lott by running a SAAMI .458 WIN MAG reamer into it with a non-cutting belt stop.

 

[Schüler Jumbo]

Okay. I’m on the right track to understanding this. I don’t quite have the whole picture in my mind just yet but I’m going to Press On. The one thing I’m 100% absolutely certain about is “it’s the bullet stupid” hahaha! Thanks for everything @Riflecrank!!

 

[Schüler Jumbo]

@Riflecrank I found Nhoro’s 2020 Thread:

“458 Lott factory chamber vs a reamed from Win Mag chamber”.​

Read it and understand now! Knowledge is Power!!

 

[Riflecrank]

Yep.
Before I discovered the magic of the .458 WIN MAG throat,
I was patterning my wildcat throats after the latest C.I.P homologation of the .375 WBY MAG throat:
Parallel-Sided-Free-Bore (PSFB) length of a few thou less than bullet caliber
and PSFB diameter of only 0.0006" (six ten-thousandths of an inch) greater than
bullet caliber,
and a gradual leade hemi-angle of only 1*05'20".
The 6.5 Creedmoor has a throat similar to that, scaled down from .375 to .264.

Dave Manson's reamer was close enough to C.I.P. to work very well:

Try as I might, this is still the most accurate 3-shot group for a "big bore" that I ever shot off the bench:

For faster MV at lower pressure and almost as accurate: Use H4350, about 88.0 grains with any 300-gr bullet you like, or duplicate the Weatherby factory loads with 300-gr Nosler and Norma-made brass, F215 primer.
2800 fps MV from a 26" barrel, about 2750 fps MV from a 24" barrel.
A Weatherby Mark V DGR .375 WBY MAG would be a great companion to the above.

My M70 rifle shoots .375 H&H ammo accurately.
With .375 WBY MAG Weatherby factory 300-gr Nosler zeroed 3" high at 100 yards,
the Remington factory .375 H&H 300-gr Swift AF ammo rated at 2530 fps in 24" barrel, is reduced to just over 2400 fps and it is spot-on zero at 100 yards.
Very handy. Doctari would say it has been made into a better killer by slowing it down, heh-heh-heh. Maybe because the recoil is lessened, heh-heh-heh.

The .458 WIN MAG throat has zero PSFB, just a long and gradual leade hemi-angle of 0*29'30", just under a one-degree cone-angle.
Accurate and pressure relieving magic.

Moral of the story: Don't use any old .375 WBY MAG reamer with a 3/4"-long PSFB, if you are going to rechamber a .375 H&H to .375 WBY MAG.