Current Production Weatherby DGR Opinion

[Schüler Jumbo]

That is exactly what I would do with the .378 and keep the velocity pedestrian to moderate.

 

[Schüler Jumbo]

Now I prefer a maximum of 450-grain monometal CEB or North Fork bullets in .450 Dakota at 2500 fps from a Prechtl-actioned SIGARMS magnum Mauser 98,
or best of all, a .458 WIN MAG with 400-grains at 2500 fps with brass FN solids (CEB) and 404-gr Stone Hammer b

@Riflecrank when you have time, please comment a bit more on your reasons for preferring a .450 Dakota and .458 Winchester. And also why you prefer bullets < 500 grains in the .458 caliber. Thanks for taking the time with your detailed posts.

 

[PARA45]

My friend just got one in .375H&H.

I was impressed with the quality. Action was very smooth and fed great. We only had time to put a few rounds through it each. Hopefully he and I will connect for a range day soon and I can make a more informed post.

Hey @sureshot375, hope all is well in your neck of the woods. BTW, was that a Weatherby DGR? IMO, the Weatherby action is well made and as smooth as it can be without being a custom. The 54-degree bolt lift is something to get used to, but once you are used to it, it is fast cycling.

The one thing most of us old Weatherby fans do not like with where Weatherby is heading today, is that they are moving away from their wood stock rifles and going to mostly synthetic stocks. I know, I know, supply and demand.

I have some beautiful wood stock Weatherbys. Maybe we should have a new thread called "Show us your Weatherby".

 

[PARA45]

@Schüler Jumbo. BTW, I've read that on the 375 Weatherby rifles, in a pinch you can shoot 375 H&H ammo through them.

 

[Schüler Jumbo]

Yes, that’s a big selling point for the .375 Weatherby having the ability to shoot .375 H&H. In essence, the .375 Wby is an improved version of the H&H. Those that I know actually love their .375 Wby but think the next level of .375’s eg Rum, .378 etc are too much of a good thing.

 

[skydiver386]

Hey @sureshot375, hope all is well in your neck of the woods. BTW, was that a Weatherby DGR? IMO, the Weatherby action is well made and as smooth as it can be without being a custom. The 54-degree bolt lift is something to get used to, but once you are used to it, it is fast cycling.

The one thing most of us old Weatherby fans do not like with where Weatherby is heading today, is that they are moving away from their wood stock rifles and going to mostly synthetic stocks. I know, I know, supply and demand.

I have some beautiful wood stock Weatherbys. Maybe we should have a new thread called "Show us your Weatherby".

I really like the Weatherby style stocks, except for the bright glossy finish. The wood used was almost always a beautiful quality and if it were a low gloss oil finish would have looked much better in my opinion.

For scoped PG rifle, the Weatherby fits me better than almost anything out there.

 

[PARA45]

The Euromark & Europa were the only Weatherby rifles with an oil finish. I have two Euromarks. You are correct on the oil finish. I believe some of the Deluxe rifles I have, would look amazing with an oil finish

 

[sureshot375]

Good to hear. Thanks @sureshot375! In general did you like the looks of the rifle?

I did. I think a lot of it comes down to preference, but it’s a good looking rifle to me. It’s a proper rifle for an overseas hard use trip.

 

[Schüler Jumbo]

Well said. All my DGR’s sport nice wood stocks. So I’m looking for a synthetic stocked hard working rifle. Of course, I can re-stock one of my existing rifles but not sure I want to do that.

 

[sureshot375]

Hey @sureshot375, hope all is well in your neck of the woods. BTW, was that a Weatherby DGR? IMO, the Weatherby action is well made and as smooth as it can be without being a custom. The 54-degree bolt lift is something to get used to, but once you are used to it, it is fast cycling.

The one thing most of us old Weatherby fans do not like with where Weatherby is heading today, is that they are moving away from their wood stock rifles and going to mostly synthetic stocks. I know, I know, supply and demand.

I have some beautiful wood stock Weatherbys. Maybe we should have a new thread called "Show us your Weatherby".

It was one of the brand spanking new weatherby DGR with the fiberglass stock.

I like the Weatherby rifles too. However, we have always had the synthetic stocks. Dad had a mark v in .300 wby that he took all over the world and killed a ton of stuff with. I have a newer one of the accumark models that I end up loaning out to people. Great rifles.

 

[Riflecrank]

@Riflecrank when you have time, please comment a bit more on your reasons for preferring a .450 Dakota and .458 Winchester. And also why you prefer bullets < 500 grains in the .458 caliber. Thanks for taking the time with your detailed posts.

I prefer any .458 caliber rifle, except the SAAMI .458 Lott.
.450 Dakota because it arrived before .450 Rigby Rimless by two or three years, and that is what I ended up with.
Did you know that its case is based on the .460 WBY MAG with belt turned off ?
Originated when .416 Rigby cases were very scarce, late 1980s.

Why do I prefer .458 WIN MAG ?
Too many reasons to shake a stick at.
It is my most-preferred .458-caliber rifle.

Why bullets less than 500 grains in any and all .458-caliber rifles ?
Because of monometals.
And because of the research and field test results of Michael458 at McCourry Institute of Ballistics.
The 450-gr CEB Safari Solid at 2300 (WIN MAG) to 2500 fps (Dakota) MV is sufficient for all DGR.
Even the 400-gr CEB Safari Solid at 2500 fps MV from the WIN MAG penetrates plenty well enough for all DGR,
and is a good pairing with the 404-gr Stone Hammer at 2500 to 2600 fps MV in the .458 WIN MAG.
That Stone Hammer is a proven one-shot buffalo killer at 30 to 50 yards,
perfect for lesser game at long range, certainly +300 yards.
As James Carvile would say, "It's the bullet stupid."
Bullet Tech has arrived:
CEB
North Fork
Hammer bullets.

 

[Beerhunter]

A few thoughts, Schüler Jumbo ...

As much as the .378 Wby is by any rational analysis a flawed design, and is responsible for the Weatherby dismal reputation in Africa, the .460 Wby actually has a small but very loyal following amongst old hand PHs with extensive DG experience. This is a fact.

The modern CRF debate is not as much a practical debate as it is a cultural debate. As noted by analog_peninsula, rare are the CRF rifles, including modern Mauser, Rigby, etc., that actually respect the original Mauser geometry where the diameter of the case dictated the width of the magazine box, the shape of the follower, the geometry of the ramp, and the geometry of the feeding rails.

View attachment 764203

View attachment 764204

Observe that in order to deliver truly reliable CRF function, Mauser was offering 20 DIFFERENT actions, each designed for its own specific caliber.

Do not believe for a second that a modern 'one-does-it-all' Mauser action achieves anywhere near the level of CRF reliability of the originals, regardless of caliber, and regardless of whatever name is engraved on the barrel, including the most prestigious ones.

That too is a fact.

Yes there are perfectly tuned CRF actions out there, but they are rarer than a hen's teeth and darn few rifle-smiths still know, and take the time, to do it right, the greatest culprit being the universal size magazine box. Diving into the real world, many are those, like mms45 who never found in their CRF the level of comfort they sought. Not surprisingly, and easily explained by the above...

And do not believe that this only affects lower priced CRF actions. Try for example to feed a flat nose solid through a 1930's genuine H&H made .375, and come back to tell us...

Having personally owned and hunted genuine Mauser (H&H), FN (Dumoulin), Brno, and CZ CRF actions in .375 (above mentioned), .416 and .458, and having renounced all of them (and a K Gun .470 double) for a R8 with a handful of barrels, including .375 and .458 Lott, I am personally completely comfortable that I am not sacrificing an ounce of safety.

Not to mention that the tens of thousands of rounds I fire with the R8 (including practice with .22 LR and .223 by the cases) have made me infinitely more proficient with it than I ever was with any other rifle, by necessity shot a lot less...

I understand that some will forever feel (note that I write "feel", not "be") better equipped with a CRF action, but this is more in the spiritual rather than practical domain. I do respect that.

Where I completely agree with Mark A Ouellette, is the muzzle brake. Enough said about this deafening monstrosity...

Excellent response, agreed 100%.

 

[Certus]

I agree the modern synthetic stock is much better than any wood stock, except for safe-queening.

In the 460 and 416 Weatherby Magnum DGR rifles,
they are not to be pooh-poohed for not being CRF.
They are vertical-in-line-straight-stack,
three down with the coffin plate plus one in chamber.
Reliable feeders and lots better extractors than a Remington M700.
Only a true Mauser 98 is more reliable, IMHO.
My .416 WBY MAG came before they stopped using the Wisner African rear sight.
View attachment 763599
View attachment 763600
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View attachment 763602
Just a personal prejudice about the latest cheapened rear sight, so don't mind me on that. Easy to replace if Wisner stocks more of them.

Absolutely love it. Beautiful rifle and sollliiiid chambering.

 

[Schüler Jumbo]

I appreciate reading your response @Riflecrank. Thank you. I’ve always stayed with 480 and 500 grains in 458’s. I’ll give the lighter weight monometals a go. I assume the longer length of the monometal bullet provides the needed sectional density.

 

[CJNJ]

My friend just got one in .375H&H.

I was impressed with the quality. Action was very smooth and fed great. We only had time to put a few rounds through it each. Hopefully he and I will connect for a range day soon and I can make a more informed post.

My first magnum was a Mark V 270 Weatherby Mag with factory McMillen stock. Absolutely fine rifle, very well made, laser like tack driver. Negligible recoil of course. Regret selling it.

 

[Certus]

It seems that the excess velocity of the 378 weatherby is too hot when using a 300 grain bullet. What about when using a 350 grain bonded bullet like the northfork semi spritzer?

This is what I was going to suggest. Run the 350 at the speeds a H&H does a 300gr.

 

[Riflecrank]

I appreciate reading your response @Riflecrank. Thank you. I’ve always stayed with 480 and 500 grains in 458’s. I’ll give the lighter weight monometals a go. I assume the longer length of the monometal bullet provides the needed sectional density.

Bullet length has nothing to do with sectional density.
That is based on bullet weight regardless of length.
Sectional density is no joke, of course, as it drives both ballistic coefficient
as well as expansion of a bullet on impact.
At any given velocity, the higher sectional density bullet will expand more,
all else constant with bullet construction other than longer length of bullet base giving it greater weight.

Bullet Overall Length (BOL) does affect other things like taking up powder space, affecting internal ballistics.
Also, the longer the bullet the more inherently unstable it will be in the terminal ballistics, for a nondeforming solid bullet.
And longer bullets will require faster spin rates in external ballistics.
Bullet length has big effects on all three phases of ballistics.
Good and bad, depending on what you are after.

The behemoth .458 bullets (550-gr and 600-gr) of conventional cup&core construction, will mushroom very well, but must be slowed down to prevent over-expansion and shallow penetration. Shallow fury does not kill as surely as a lesser amount of deeper fury. Extra noise and heat transfer on impact is not a big help.

With solid bullets of perfect construction, like the CEB Safari Solid, brass FN,
there is an optimum velocity of about 2200 to 2500 fps impact for maximum
penetration. Too fast and tissue resistance increases exponentially with impact velocity, so penetration falls off.
Velocity drops off quickly with blunt bullets, losing 200 to 300 fps in 50 yards depending on the bullet.
50 yards is a good maximum range to even think of using an FN solid in a DGR,
and closer is better usually, of course.

Considering the CEB .458 FN solids of 450-gr and 400-gr,
if both impact at same velocity, the 450-grainer will penetrate deeper,
about 12.5% deeper, directly proportional to weight/sectional density.
A 500-grainer might not make it as deep as a 450-grainer, both because of the longer length making it less stable, and maybe slower impact velocity.
It might not be in the 2200-2500 fps range down range.

A 450-gr/.458 FN solid at 2300 fps is by all accounts satisfactory for elephant.
The 400-gr/.458 FN solid at 2500 fps will be too.
Shorter length and faster spin rate will make it more stable on the transition from air to elephant, and inside the elephant too.
Both bullets might be good for 10 feet of elephant penetration.
Whatever it is, I am sure it is enough.

The 400-gr/.458 FN pairs so well with a high BC soft point like the 404-gr Stone Hammer, why use anything else ?

460 WBY MAG DGR: 404-gr Stone Hammer at 2900 to 3000 fps MV.
That would be versatile.
That bullet is similar to a CEB Raptor, but with higher BC for longer range use.
Blows off the petals in a death star almost as reliable as a Raptor.
Residual base penetrator keeps going.
Even at 2500 to 2600 fps from a .458 WIN MAG it has been known to exit on cape buffalo broadside chest shots for one-shot, dead-right-there kills.

Old cup&core 550-gr to 600-gr/.458 bullet technology takes a back seat anytime except for nostalgia or subsonic-suppressed use for head shots on sentries.

 

[Riflecrank]

This is what I was going to suggest. Run the 350 at the speeds a H&H does a 300gr.

MV-wise,
.375 WBY MAG does with 350-grainers what the .375 H&H does with 300-grainers.
The lighter the bullet weight, the less advantage the .375 WBY has over the .375 H&H.
With the new bullet technology, .375 H&H gives up little in effectiveness.
.375 WBY MAG was my first love.
The .378 WBY MAG is indeed silly by comparison.

 

[Certus]

MV-wise,
.375 WBY MAG does with 350-grainers what the .375 H&H does with 300-grainers.
The lighter the bullet weight, the less advantage the .375 WBY has over the .375 H&H.
With the new bullet technology, .375 H&H gives up little in effectiveness.
.375 WBY MAG was my first love.
The .378 WBY MAG is indeed silly by comparison.

Ah well I’d still own one

 

[Schüler Jumbo]

Bullet length has nothing to do with sectional density.
That is based on bullet weight regardless of length.
Sectional density is no joke, of course, as it drives both ballistic coefficient
as well as expansion of a bullet on impact.
At any given velocity, the higher sectional density bullet will expand more,
all else constant with bullet construction other than longer length of bullet base giving it greater weight.

Bullet Overall Length (BOL) does affect other things like taking up powder space, affecting internal ballistics.
Also, the longer the bullet the more inherently unstable it will be in the terminal ballistics, for a nondeforming solid bullet.
And longer bullets will require faster spin rates in external ballistics.
Bullet length has big effects on all three phases of ballistics.
Good and bad, depending on what you are after.

The behemoth .458 bullets (550-gr and 600-gr) of conventional cup&core construction, will mushroom very well, but must be slowed down to prevent over-expansion and shallow penetration. Shallow fury does not kill as surely as a lesser amount of deeper fury. Extra noise and heat transfer on impact is not a big help.

With solid bullets of perfect construction, like the CEB Safari Solid, brass FN,
there is an optimum velocity of about 2200 to 2500 fps impact for maximum
penetration. Too fast and tissue resistance increases exponentially with impact velocity, so penetration falls off.
Velocity drops off quickly with blunt bullets, losing 200 to 300 fps in 50 yards depending on the bullet.
50 yards is a good maximum range to even think of using an FN solid in a DGR,
and closer is better usually, of course.

Considering the CEB .458 FN solids of 450-gr and 400-gr,
if both impact at same velocity, the 450-grainer will penetrate deeper,
about 12.5% deeper, directly proportional to weight/sectional density.
A 500-grainer might not make it as deep as a 450-grainer, both because of the longer length making it less stable, and maybe slower impact velocity.
It might not be in the 2200-2500 fps range down range.

A 450-gr/.458 FN solid at 2300 fps is by all accounts satisfactory for elephant.
The 400-gr/.458 FN solid at 2500 fps will be too.
Shorter length and faster spin rate will make it more stable on the transition from air to elephant, and inside the elephant too.
Both bullets might be good for 10 feet of elephant penetration.
Whatever it is, I am sure it is enough.

The 400-gr/.458 FN pairs so well with a high BC soft point like the 404-gr Stone Hammer, why use anything else ?

460 WBY MAG DGR: 404-gr Stone Hammer at 2900 to 3000 fps MV.
That would be versatile.
That bullet is similar to a CEB Raptor, but with higher BC for longer range use.
Blows off the petals in a death star almost as reliable as a Raptor.
Residual base penetrator keeps going.
Even at 2500 to 2600 fps from a .458 WIN MAG it has been known to exit on cape buffalo broadside chest shots for one-shot, dead-right-there kills.

Old cup&core 550-gr to 600-gr/.458 bullet technology takes a back seat anytime except for nostalgia or subsonic-suppressed use for head shots on sentries.

Okay. I’ve read your post a couple times and plan to read it again; very important topic. Basically my take is there are two different sectional density measurements: 1) calculating an unfired bullet SD; and 2) SD of an expanding bullet after it enters the target. Also, bullet material and construction take precedence over SD which explains a lighter weight monometal bullet penetrating better than heavier cup & core. May not have that quite right. Anyway, it takes a lot of effort to prepare your response. Many thanks @Riflecrank.