Curious why cape buffalo have the same minimum caliber requirement as Rhino, Hippo and Elephant?

[mark-hunter]

I agree!

 

[Datchew]

In every day hunting world, where the deer and the hog are most common prey, the popular belief is that 30 - 06 is caliber with maximum recoil that average person can tolerate.

Cross the pond over to Africa, and then the experts say the same for 375 H&H, maximum tolerable recoil for average person?



These two statements do not match. There must be a flaw in philosophy. Then who are the people who shoot bigger guns?!

I've picked up on this as well. Good call pointing it out. Kinda funny how conventional wisdom has these little orthodoxies.

Must be the African dust that makes em stronger. I think my strength went up 15% just sucking in a bit of it when I was over there.

 

[C.W. Richter]

Some countries don't have a minimum caliber restriction, rather a minimum energy restriction on DG (i.e. 4,000 ft/lbs). Many of the smaller calibers were used by the famous/infamous long ago for head shots on (African) buffalo and elephant. What would you prefer? A hot .338 with a 300 gr bullet will definitely do the trick on Buff, with more penetration than a 375 HH on tricky shots (def. NOT a herd gun!) And even the .458 WM shows just how much more energy you have at hand once the bullet weights nearly double (You can imagine the E of the big bores-.470 and up! 7,000+/-) Hot .338 or .375 and larger. African animals are constructed a bit tougher than elsewhere, plus the attitude to match...A hippo skin can be 1"-2" thick, for starters. I'd NOT use a 60ish gr case capacity for DG with a 25%-50% lighter bullet. They are NOT stoppers when things happen. And, things Do happen!

 

[C.W. Richter]

I'm a BIG proponent of the hot (not WM) .338s. More E than a .375, even better SD means better penetration, 300 grainers are available, solids available, flatter shooting/longer range for PG, often more accurate for precise shots on croc, hippo, and perfectly suitable for a precise buff head shot when that's all that's presented. Absolutely more accurate for longer range shots than 375 (especially considering the larger slugs used for DG that lack V for longer shots). You're not taking the 72" kudu at 400 yds with your 375 DG rig, but with the 338 it's a snap! 'Have seen many, many game animals drop like a rock at the 1st shot w/ big .338s at considerable range. While the 375 is popular (and just fine-I had 2), the big 338s outperform it and have even greater utility, for those who care to admit it.

 

[Tanks]

i realize every person had a physical recoil tolerance, but the % that have a true physical reason that more than a 06 is to much in smaller that the mental it hurts group. In my non politically correct self in my youth we called whip or sissy when the shoe fit.

I think it has to do with training more than anything. And also most getting introduced to rifle shooting start with and use stances for target shooting. If one uses the stance below, they will get surprised for sure with big bores, let alone a rat caliber like a .375

 

[sgt_zim]

@mark-hunter The What is acceptable recoil 06 vs 375. I have often said that most folks can be taught to shoot up to a 375 H&H. Some is technique some is not shooting it off the bench etc. But there needs to be a desire on the shooters part to want/need it.

However i will also put in my .02 worth that several generations in the western world have been babied growing up vs the kids in africa and other parts of the world. And just don't have the desire to learn if they percieve "It hurts'

Kinda like watching soccer vs rugby The rugby player gets ran over and gets up bleeding and shake the other player hand and says "Good hit mate!" the soccer player gets bumped and lays on the ground rolling around trying to win an acting oscar.

i realize every person had a physical recoil tolerance, but the % that have a true physical reason that more than a 06 is to much in smaller that the mental it hurts group. In my non politically correct self in my youth we called whip or sissy when the shoe fit.

Yeah, it's as big of a jump up to the small 40s from 375 as it is from 30-06 to 375 - 20 ft lbs to 40 ft lbs to 60 ft lbs, give or take a little for any of them.

My wife jumped from 6.5x55 to 375 H&H, a Ruger #1H Tropical. Her first day on the sticks, she shot as well as I did at 50 yards. I did work up some mild introductory loads for her, 270 gr Interlocks at a skosh over 2300, but still right at 30 ft lbs of recoil. I'll run her through this box of Interlocks, then step her up to 300 gr TSX at the same MV. I expect I'll top those out at around 2350 or 2400.

I strapped a PAST on her shoulder, which I think caused as much trouble is it did solve problems. LOP on that rifle is perfect for her (she's 5'11" and a thin 160 with long arms and a long neck), the PAST pushed her back off the scope just a little.

 

[sgt_zim]

In every day hunting world, where the deer and the hog are most common prey, the popular belief is that 30 - 06 is caliber with maximum recoil that average person can tolerate.

Cross the pond over to Africa, and then the experts say the same for 375 H&H, maximum tolerable recoil for average person?



These two statements do not match. There must be a flaw in philosophy. Then who are the people who shoot bigger guns?!

Okey, I admit, I read a lot, and based on theory sometimes I worry too much.

I have 375, but my last hunt was on ele in Zim 2025, and I used camp gun in 416.

I was really worried before the hunt, if I will be able to handle the recoil, get a flinch first day when zeroing the rifle, and screw up elephant hunt.

On the end, it was all fine. Rifle and me performed well and I did not yet find my recoil threshold. The problems with recoil are more complex then just putting it and blaming it on caliber.

If Chuck Norris were a bit tougher, he could play for the Springboks.

 

[steve white]

WHY the same minimum caliber?.....because all those mentioned will KILL you!! And buffalo, due to numbers hunted will statistically kill more hunters/PHs.
It's a wonder there is not a higher minimum for all Pachyderms.
Non hunter deaths--the hippo by far.

 

[BryceM]

Because that's what has been shown to work. That's why. Those who survived the episodes that didn't go well reported their empirical observations to others......

All I know is that when a bull elephant becomes aware of you and turns to face you, nothing capable of being carried afield seems big enough. A 12,000 pound animal is usually hunted with a 400 or 500 grain bullet. 150 pound whitetail deer are usually hunted with something in the 120 grain range.

 

[Choupique]

Disclaimer - I've never been there or done that.

It seems the ornery cape buffalo warrant some extra killing vs their more docile counterparts in their weight class. It sure seems like they want to stay alive at least long enough to stomp somebody into meat paste.

I'd feel perfectly safe shooting a cape buffalo with a .338 win mag as long as I had a bigger gun with a good shooter strapped to it nearby. I know I will make a perfect hit with the .338, and thats going to work very well. I dont have a ton of trigger time on them but I know I cant shoot a .375 as well as a .338

 

[AJ Peacock]

I look at the Cape Buffalo as the Mike Tyson of Buffalo. He boxed at around 240lbs and I guarantee that I'd be a LOT easier to knock down at 240lbs than he was.

If I ever get a chance to hunt Cape Buffalo, I'll be using a caliber that starts with at least a 4.

AJ

 

[mgstucson]

From the Chinese philosopher Lao Tsu on down, many through the centuries have said something similar to:
"A smart man learns from his own mistakes, a wise man learns from the mistakes of others."
For DG hunters it might be said:
"A smart man learns from his own mistakes, a wise man finds a smart man who survived, and learns from him."

I for one appreciate all the "smart men" and "wise men" who post here. It is a very helpful place to collect, and FILTER information.

I have not hunted Africa yet, but from all the smart and wise men I have read here, I am starting to lean toward my minimum for a CARRY rifle in DG TERRITORY. and DEFINITELY on a DG hunt, would be a 458 WM properly loaded, and maybe a 458 Lott for the largest or most dangerous. There was a story just this month of a hunter after a rare antelope stomped to death by elephants which happened to be in the area. For PG hunt in DG territory, I would carry the 458, and hire a tracker to carry my, 400, 416 or 375. For a shot under 150 yards, I would just use the 458 for PG, for a shot over 150 yards, there will probably be time to get the 375 from the tracker. If there is time to get the sticks, there is time to get the rifle.

I know it is the PH's job to sort things out on DG, but "stuff" happens. Trusting my life to one man and one piece of machinery, with as many variables as are involved in a DG hunt, it is just not happening for me. In any VOLUNTARY situation where human life is at risk, especially mine, redundant safety in REQUIRED. For DG hunting, TO ME this means 2 people carrying STOPPING rifles who know how to use them. There is a good reason why planes have co-pilots. When I rock climb, I place redundant protection and at times use 2 ropes. I like to say the impossible will have to happen, at least twice at the same time, for me to die having fun.

If I could not shoot at least a 458 WM accurately, I would stay home from the dangerous game fields. I know many others, most others, feel differently for a variety of reasons. To each his/her own.

This is what I require for myself when my life is on the line. I have too many who depend on me for too much to consider anything less. I do NOT try to tell others what to do for themselves. Nor do I let others tell me what to do for myself.

I DO agree with the minimum requirements for DG being set and enforced by regulating authorities, for reasons of public safety. I think 375 is a reasonable minimum for DG KILLING caliber, from all the research conducted by "smart" and "wise" men, and a few women. I realize many, if not most, are comfortable with one stopping rifle in the hunting party, even if I am not. There is a long history that says that is usually enough. Where my life is at risk, I try to NEVER have the words "minimum" and "safety" used in the same sentence. I prefer words like "maximum safety."

Belt AND suspenders ... when a human life is on the line ... belt AND suspenders.

YMMV

 

[grand veneur]

From the Chinese philosopher Lao Tsu on down, many through the centuries have said something similar to:
"A smart man learns from his own mistakes, a wise man learns from the mistakes of others."
For DG hunters it might be said:
"A smart man learns from his own mistakes, a wise man finds a smart man who survived, and learns from him."

I for one appreciate all the "smart men" and "wise men" who post here. It is a very helpful place to collect, and FILTER information.

I have not hunted Africa yet, but from all the smart and wise men I have read here, I am starting to lean toward my minimum for a CARRY rifle in DG TERRITORY. and DEFINITELY on a DG hunt, would be a 458 WM properly loaded, and maybe a 458 Lott for the largest or most dangerous. There was a story just this month of a hunter after a rare antelope stomped to death by elephants which happened to be in the area. For PG hunt in DG territory, I would carry the 458, and hire a tracker to carry my, 400, 416 or 375. For a shot under 150 yards, I would just use the 458 for PG, for a shot over 150 yards, there will probably be time to get the 375 from the tracker. If there is time to get the sticks, there is time to get the rifle.

I know it is the PH's job to sort things out on DG, but "stuff" happens. Trusting my life to one man and one piece of machinery, with as many variables as are involved in a DG hunt, it is just not happening for me. In any VOLUNTARY situation where human life is at risk, especially mine, redundant safety in REQUIRED. For DG hunting, TO ME this means 2 people carrying STOPPING rifles who know how to use them. There is a good reason why planes have co-pilots. When I rock climb, I place redundant protection and at times use 2 ropes. I like to say the impossible will have to happen, at least twice at the same time, for me to die having fun.

If I could not shoot at least a 458 WM accurately, I would stay home from the dangerous game fields. I know many others, most others, feel differently for a variety of reasons. To each his/her own.

This is what I require for myself when my life is on the line. I have too many who depend on me for too much to consider anything less. I do NOT try to tell others what to do for themselves. Nor do I let others tell me what to do for myself.

I DO agree with the minimum requirements for DG being set and enforced by regulating authorities, for reasons of public safety. I think 375 is a reasonable minimum for DG KILLING caliber, from all the research conducted by "smart" and "wise" men, and a few women. I realize many, if not most, are comfortable with one stopping rifle in the hunting party, even if I am not. There is a long history that says that is usually enough. Where my life is at risk, I try to NEVER have the words "minimum" and "safety" used in the same sentence. I prefer words like "maximum safety."

Belt AND suspenders ... when a human life is on the line ... belt AND suspenders.

YMMV

A lot of wisdom regarding the hunting of dangerous game. You are absolutely correct in your assessment of the situation. All these animals, some even more so than other, are extremely dangerous, and this danger is so greater when one is actively hunting them. In this type of hunting, there is no room for wishful thinking or for experiments based on claims by a few pragger or liars who managed to shoot dangerous game with unsuitable cartridges for this purpose, and that supposedly without any trouble. I like to quote an old author who wrote 1900 that shooting heavy dangerous game with small-caliber rifles should be left to the highly experienced hunters, the less experienced one should use big bore rifles. I have shot approximately 30 buffaloes in my life, but this is far from making me an expert. I shot 2/3 of them using cartridges of caliber 416 or larger, and half of those without a professional hunter for backup. Some of various animals caused trouble, which is why I have always preferred to use a rifle caliber 460 Weatherby Magnum rather than one caliber 375 H&H Magnum. Walking alone in the bush on the mid of dangerous game with a rifle caliber 338, let alone one caliber 30-06 Springfield, would have bordered on suicide. Use enough gun remains the fundamental rule for all of us occasional big-game hunters. I have been sticking to that for decades.

 

[PCC600]

@mark-hunter The What is acceptable recoil 06 vs 375. I have often said that most folks can be taught to shoot up to a 375 H&H. Some is technique some is not shooting it off the bench etc. But there needs to be a desire on the shooters part to want/need it.

However i will also put in my .02 worth that several generations in the western world have been babied growing up vs the kids in africa and other parts of the world. And just don't have the desire to learn if they percieve "It hurts'

Kinda like watching soccer vs rugby The rugby player gets ran over and gets up bleeding and shake the other player hand and says "Good hit mate!" the soccer player gets bumped and lays on the ground rolling around trying to win an acting oscar.

i realize every person had a physical recoil tolerance, but the % that have a true physical reason that more than a 06 is to much in smaller that the mental it hurts group. In my non politically correct self in my youth we called whip or sissy when the shoe fit.

I played too grade rugby as a hooker ( the worst position on the field ) or tight head - probably explains why I love shooting .500+ rifles . Also helpful that I weigh a ton . Cheers

 

[JG26Irish_2]

If Chuck Norris were a bit tougher, he could play for the Springboks.

LOL - My PH in South Africa played Rugby for the Springboks national team for a few years. He is not a sissy boy. But, then not all of us Western hemisphere lads are sissies either. When I was 12yrs old, I was hunting on my own, with a single shot very light weight (<6lb) 12ga shotgun using heavy high brass loads. The recoil impulse on such a rig varies from 32-45 ft lbs depending on loads. Still up to a few years ago, I thought that a heavy recoiling rifle was my ultralight 308 with 165g bullets, lol. Then came Africa. I think that red dust penetrates your soul and raises your testosterone levels. Or, maybe we just learn to love it. My 375HH recoil is nothing and I enjoy shooting the 458wm which kicks a little bit more. I have never had the opportunity to try anything bigger but think I could get used to it if I had the chance.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I've always wondered why the .375 cal minimum requirement applied to Cape Buffalo in the same way it does to the larger dangerous game ie Hippo, Rhino and Elephant.

Now, I have never hunted Africa and have no direct experience with these game species. I know that Cape Buffalo are known for their toughness, their "meanness" and I've seen videos where they soak up a LOT of lead.

But from an anatomical perspective they are a ~1,600lb Buffalo vs a 3,000lb+ Hippo, 5,000lbs+ Rhino or a 15,000lb+ bull elephant.

They just don't seem to be in the same weight class compared to other megafauna.

Thinking of local examples at home, North Americans hunt the North American Bison which grows larger than Cape Buffalo (to to 2,700lbs) with 30cals like 308, 30-06, 300 WinMag etc.

It sounds like the Australians hunt their Water Buffalo (2,000lbs) with 338's as well but recommend a 375.

So a few questions:
1. Do you believe the caliber restrictions for Cape Buffalo should be the same as the larger African game? i.e. 375.
2. Do you think there should be an exception for using 338's, 35's etc. on Cape buffalo given their effectiveness on other buffalo species around the world?
3. Do you think the 375 minimum is actually too low for hippo, rhino or elephant?

I'm asking these questions as I sit here planning my Bison hunt where I intend to bring my 338WinMag with 250gr partitions.

@Northern Shooter
You like myself can't understand the limit. Then again I have never and probably will never shoot a cape buffalo.
My personal opinion is if the 9.3X62 is legal then the 338 and 35 Whelen should be as well.
Both loaded with APPROPRIATE PROJECTILES like swift AFrames, Woodleighs of the right weight 275-310gn at similar velocities will do the same job. Not ideal when the shit hits the fan but for a hunter that is prepared to wait for the shot I can't see why not.
The original 375 with 300 grainers at 2,400 fps has accounted for a lot of big game and also been responsible for a few deaths because of inadequacy in bullets and shooter bat technology has changed the construction of projectiles making better than years fine by.
A338 or the Whelen with a 300-310 gn started out at 2,400fps because of the high sectional density ( similar to a350 gn 375) should penetrate the vitals of a buffalo and bring about its demise.
I personally would have no issues using my Whelen on one but the law says I can't unfortunately.
Bob

 

[Odinsraven]

Use Enough Gun explains it pretty well. The "minimum" does not exist because its the minimum required to actually kill the animal in question, it exists to minimize wounded and therefore more dangerous game.

Walter Bell shot countless elephants with a 275 Rigby (among other small calibers). Hemingway wrote famously about his only Rhino being shot at 300 yards with a "sweet shooting 30-06." Hemingway also shot a Cape Buffalo with a 30-06 on his first safari, but by his second safari, he was hunting Buffalo with a Wesley Richards 577NE.

Countless lion, leopard and Buffalo have been shot with 30 caliber rifles. With a well placed shot, the indelible 30-06 (and other small calibers) work just fine.

The "well placed shot" is the issue. The bigger the hole, and the harder the impact, the more room for error. At least it will slow the animal down or create enough blood trail for the PH and crew to follow-up. Far too many PHs have hosted clients that cannot hit the hood of the cruiser from the safari seats on back.

I have never bought the argument about recoil anyway. My 12 year old (weighed 120lbs) made a 1 shot kill on a lion with his 375H&H Mag. My other son has killed lion, elephant and hippo with the same 375H&H Mag at 14 years old (he was 5'8" and 145 lbs). Recoil is not a factor once you shoot the gun enough to be comfortable with it. Those same boys were fully capable of shooting my preferred 470NE at those ages. That's because they actually shoot them.

I would continue to encourage every hunter to shoot more often. The Big Bores are not that intimidating the more you shoot them. And the more you shoot, the better you become.

Wise works my ex GF was very competent with 375H&H simply as when I taught her to shoot I never mentioned much about recoil. She just accepted the Laws of Newton and got on with it.

 

[JG26Irish_2]

@Northern Shooter

The original 375 with 300 grainers at 2,400 fps has accounted for a lot of big game and also been responsible for a few deaths because of inadequacy in bullets and shooter bat technology has changed the construction of projectiles making better than years fine by.

We are now getting close to 2600fps from the 300g TSX loads in my rifle. That is with a 26" bbl. They still do not pass thru a buffalo on broadside shots. Those sob's are tough.

A338 or the Whelen with a 300-310 gn started out at 2,400fps because of the high sectional density ( similar to a350 gn 375) should penetrate the vitals of a buffalo and bring about its demise.
I personally would have no issues using my Whelen on one but the law says I can't unfortunately.
Bob

I have no experience with the 35W but on paper it looks as good as the 9.3x62. I do have experience with the 338wm and honestly, I think it is more potent than the 375 when using the 225g or bigger bullets.

 

[sgt_zim]

@Northern Shooter
You like myself can't understand the limit. Then again I have never and probably will never shoot a cape buffalo.
My personal opinion is if the 9.3X62 is legal then the 338 and 35 Whelen should be as well.
Both loaded with APPROPRIATE PROJECTILES like swift AFrames, Woodleighs of the right weight 275-310gn at similar velocities will do the same job. Not ideal when the shit hits the fan but for a hunter that is prepared to wait for the shot I can't see why not.
The original 375 with 300 grainers at 2,400 fps has accounted for a lot of big game and also been responsible for a few deaths because of inadequacy in bullets and shooter bat technology has changed the construction of projectiles making better than years fine by.
A338 or the Whelen with a 300-310 gn started out at 2,400fps because of the high sectional density ( similar to a350 gn 375) should penetrate the vitals of a buffalo and bring about its demise.
I personally would have no issues using my Whelen on one but the law says I can't unfortunately.
Bob

I agree they'd work, but then outfitters and PHs really need to get in the business of ensuring 338WM/35W hunters are actually hunting with heavy-for-caliber pills. Most probably would, but the first injury/death from the guy who was hunting with 200 gr pills will be a problem.

286 gr and 300 gr are the standard for their respective cartridges. You'd have to do something different to go lighter, where with the other 2, you'd have to do something different to go heavier.

375 and 9.3 keep things simple.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I agree they'd work, but then outfitters and PHs really need to get in the business of ensuring 338WM/35W hunters are actually hunting with heavy-for-caliber pills. Most probably would, but the first injury/death from the guy who was hunting with 200 gr pills will be a problem.

286 gr and 300 gr are the standard for their respective cartridges. You'd have to do something different to go lighter, where with the other 2, you'd have to do something different to go heavier.

375 and 9.3 keep things simple.

@sgt_zim
If'n people are dumb enough not to use the right bullet on game deserve what they get.
If'n you are going to use a 200gn ( even a Barnes) on a buffalo be prepared to get stomped or gored. May work sometime but not regularly.
Yes there's new bullet technology with light bullets that change things but to me a 300-310 gn loaded in the 338 or Whelen to 2,400+ fps should be fine for broadside shots.
Bob