COVID vaccination required by Safari Company or not, your suggestion

Tam Dl

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There are two ways of saying one would not hunt with a company that mandated vaccinations. 1 is that since one is not vaccinated, and yet miraculously able to fly half way around the world, that one could not then go unvaccinated to a particular company that required it.

The other is to say that one would not be able to do it because one regarded such a company as imoral, or something similar. So that even if one had become vaccinated somehow, and could comply, one would not go.

On the latter, I think it is worth taking a chill pill and realizing a variety of things, most importantly that many countries, do not have the political division on this subject. The US, and many other western countries are as usual getting all wound up, and there are ways of being pro or anti vax, or mandates, that are immoral. But that doesn't exist in every country, particularly countries where getting vaccinated is a luxury. Probably a lot of countries would push vaccines harder, if they could get them. So comfort with particular local policies may not mean the same in Florida, and some country where there just isn't vaccine.

By the way, Ivermectin keeps pounding home the wins, and in countries where it is easy to get, it is potentially a better approach, as it eliminates spread, and does not create variants. The vaccine can drive variants.
 

Tam Dl

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By the way, the CDC also changed the definition of vaccine just recently, so that they could approve the Pfizer fully, though there are inplying it is the Pfizer that is in distribution, when it is not. Trust your mother, but cut the cards.
 

M McDindi

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I’ve been keeping up with this thread as it grows. Finally decided to play a little “devil’s advocate” here and turn the question back but…..

First, I don’t begrudge any private business from taking steps they determine appropriate for keeping themselves, their staffs and their clients safe. I think it is a good sign the operator is concerned for the overall health and safety of all concerned. IF they decide to also put various requirements on clients coming in, such as proof of receiving “the jabs”, that should also be their choice. Some clients will, obviously see it in a positive prospective and some will see it in a negative one. Again, free choice.

There are a significant host of communicable diseases in sub-Sahara African countries. Just a partial list:

TB – up to 80% of the population of any given country with latent infection.

HIV – depending on the country the HIV infection rate runs from 10%-30%

Hep A, B, C and E – Depending on the variant and the country, the active infection rates run from 10-30% of the population.

I’m purposely leaving out all the insect and animal vector driven infections and diseases

Now, here is where the devil’s advocate question comes in. Should prospective clients require outfitters to provide current proof that all staff have been recently tested or have proof of vaccination against the example list of communicable diseases above?

I’m PURPOSELY trying to be absurd only to make a point of how absurd I believe this COVID thing has become. Yes, I have had it. My entire family has had it. I’ve lost a BIL to it a few weeks ago. I personally will not take a jab even it if means I can’t travel. IF you “trust the science”, those who’ve had it and recovered have natural immunity that is 12x higher/stronger than those who’ve been jabbed – and that includes all the crazy “variants”. I do NOT begrudge anyone who makes a different CHOICE. Be as fully informed as you can and make what you feel is the proper choice for YOU and keep your nose out of other people's choice. The most baffling thing to me is how frequently hostile those who’ve made the CHOICE to get stuck are towards those who CHOOSE not to. IF you choose to get stuck because you believe it will prevent you from getting Covid, then why do you or should you care if someone else chooses differently – your “protected”….supposedly.

I am NOT advocating for the above, nor am I an “anti-vaxer”. Retired military and I’m sure I’ve been stuck for stuff that probably doesn’t exist!! LOL!! This particular form, mRNA has NEVER been done/used on humans ever before and ZERO long term studies/data of possible long term unintended/unforeseen consequences. Even the doctor who developed the mRNA tech, Dr. Malone, is publicly saying not to take it. In this case, I am more than happy to stay at the end of the jab queue line and happy to give my spot to anyone who wants ahead of me.
 
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LivingTheDream

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I’ve been keeping up with this thread as it grows. Finally decided to play a little “devil’s advocate” here and turn the question back but…..

First, I don’t begrudge any private business from taking steps they determine appropriate for keeping themselves, their staffs and their clients safe. I think it is a good sign the operator is concerned for the overall health and safety of all concerned. IF they decide to also put various requirements on clients coming in, such as proof of receiving “the jabs”, that should also be their choice. Some clients will, obviously see it in a positive prospective and some will see it in a negative one. Again, free choice.

There are a significant host of communicable diseases in sub-Sahara African countries. Just a partial list:

TB – up to 80% of the population of any given country with latent infection.

HIV – depending on the country the HIV infection rate runs from 10%-30%

Hep A, B, C and E – Depending on the variant and the country, the active infection rates run from 10-30% of the population.

I’m purposely leaving out all the insect and animal vector driven infections and diseases

Now, here is where the devil’s advocate question comes in. Should prospective clients require outfitters to provide current proof that all staff have been recently tested or have proof of vaccination against the example list of communicable diseases above?

I’m PURPOSELY trying to be absurd only to make a point of how absurd I believe this COVID thing has become. Yes, I have had it. My entire family has had it. I’ve lost a BIL to it a few weeks ago. I personally will not take a jab even it if means I can’t travel. IF you “trust the science”, those who’ve had it and recovered have natural immunity that is 12x higher/stronger than those who’ve been jabbed – and that includes all the crazy “variants”. I do NOT begrudge anyone who makes a different CHOICE. Be as fully informed as you can and make what you feel is the proper choice for YOU and keep your nose out of other people's choice. The most baffling thing to me is how frequently hostile those who’ve made the CHOICE to get stuck are towards those who CHOOSE not to. IF you choose to get stuck because you believe it will prevent you from getting Covid, then why do you or should you care if someone else chooses differently – your “protected”….supposedly.

I am NOT advocating for the above, nor am I an “anti-vaxer”. Retired military and I’m sure I’ve been stuck for stuff that probably doesn’t exist!! LOL!! This particular form, mRNA has NEVER been done/used on humans ever before and ZERO long term studies/data of possible long term unintended/unforeseen consequences. Even the doctor who developed the mRNA tech, Dr. Malone, is publicly saying not to take it. In this case, I am more than happy to stay at the end of the jab queue line and happy to give my spot to anyone who wants ahead of me.

You actually make an interesting point, about different diseases and being up to date.

There is now talk of a COVID booster, once that becomes FDA approved, will clients be required to have the initial 2 shots and then the booster? Or will you need at least one booster within 6 months? Will you need all boosters? I honestly don't know.

I think there is a lack of consideration (not from the safari company but from our government leaders) for those that have caught it and have natural immunity as well.

With this being a global issue impacting millions. I dont think there is a straight forward answer that will make everyone happy.
 

mikecatt13

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Absolutely not. If the vaccine works and you made the choice to take it, than it shouldnt matter if the clients do.

Dont hold it against anyone who has made their own personal choice either way, but making it a requirement is not only wrong, it's a red flag IMO that it's being pushed for the wrong reasons (common sense says it shouldnt be a requirement but just a choice IF it was actually effective at protecting the individual who took it)

Do you check vaccine records of clients of other vaccines? Yellow fever, polio, smallpox, hepatitis A or B? You can look up the stats on your own about the death rates of things like smallpox compared to even the published data on covid
 

Rimshot

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Absolutely not. If the vaccine works and you made the choice to take it, than it shouldnt matter if the clients do.

Dont hold it against anyone who has made their own personal choice either way, but making it a requirement is not only wrong, it's a red flag IMO that it's being pushed for the wrong reasons (common sense says it shouldnt be a requirement but just a choice IF it was actually effective at protecting the individual who took it)

Do you check vaccine records of clients of other vaccines? Yellow fever, polio, smallpox, hepatitis A or B? You can look up the stats on your own about the death rates of things like smallpox compared to even the published data on covid
Lets see: smallpox is extinct, (the first virus humans have eradicated in history, by using a vaccine!) so no need for vaccine now.

Yellow Fever vaccine: is required to enter most countries where it is endemic.

Polio: only a handful of cases in the world, mostly in Afghanistan (are you planning a vacation there to drink water that someone pooped in!?)

Hepatitis: unless you plan on doing intravenous drugs or transfusions with the locals, no need to worry about it. Can't catch it when someone breathes on you.

Using the above as examples is an unconvincing line of reasoning.

All that said, I wholeheartedly agree with you that the COVID vaccine must be a personal choice. Based on the evidence and risks (potential risk of COVID infection vs potential risk of vaccine), for most people it's dumb to choose to get COVID rather than the vaccine, unless they've already recovered from a COVID infection. As long as someone must bear the cost of their dumb choice without imposing it on others (either thru higher insurance premium or out-of-pocket cost for hospitalization if unvaxxed or no documented COVID recovery), then everyone is free and has little grounds for grievance.
 

M McDindi

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Key word in your response, Rimshot - NATURE. Virtually every developed nation on the planet maintains Level 4 Labs with active, viable specimens of small pox for research and future potential vax development. Supposed Last Know Person to Die from NATURAL small pox





And yes, I made multiple trips to AFG after 9/11 and the 9 years after before I retired. Also had to go thru two COMPLETE series of the Anthrax vax because the first one was for my first deployment to Saudi in 1984 for Elf 1, then the second for DS 1 and DS 2 that I was IN.

Hep transmission - Hep Transmission And NO, you don't have to drink or bath in the water someone pooped in. It can remain on the hands from or in the saliva of someone infected who handles your food/dishes etc.

Yellow Fever

HIV.... how can I put this delicately..... Occurrences of clients who pay for "extra services" from members of camp staff is not unknown. Happens more than most will admit - for reason.

Again, as I stated, I was being somewhat absurd on purpose. There is also one major point of this, at least to me if no one else. ALL previous vaccines have used the same/similar technique. This is injecting the person with DEAD virus cells that then cause the immune system to generate antibodies to prevent onset of the disease at some future point. The mRNA doe NOT do this. Simply put, it is a lab synthesized/modified genetic material that modifies the body DNA to cause an antibody reaction. NO BODY has any idea for certain what the long term consequences of this might be.

IF you believe the current "science" the reason the 3rd jab is being pushed for the Pfizer jab is because it turns out to only be 60% effective from the base Covid 19 strain and 0% effective against the supposed "Delta" or "MU" strains. You also need to ask yourself why Israel, a county with the highest percentage of vaxed population is starting it 4th round of boosters and why Sweden, who was initially vilified by the world in general for doing nothing, now has exceedingly low infection rates and nearly ZERO Covid deaths and NO vax requirement and one of the lowest vax rate on the planet. I personally just wish that more people would use a little bit of critical thinking and not blindly believe ANY mainstream media, right, left or perceived center nor the govts.

And I'll just drop this last little nugget - https://newsrescue.com/the-undeniab...pulated-largest-state-uttar-pradesh-horowitz/
 
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flat8

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I'll chime in on this again with my personal experience. Once it became widely understood that vaccinated and unvaccinated carry similar viral loads, then in became a risk equation for me personally and for my family. As relatively fit, middle aged guy, I felt the increasingly known risk of COVID was - for me - acceptable versus the unknown long-term risk of a vaccine with waning efficacy. Based on the math, when asked by my parents (76 and 82) whether I thought they should get the vaccine I told them I probably would if I were over 70. They got the shots with no adverse reactions. My in-laws (70 and 72) got the shot and did have bad reactions. My father in law has been on prednisone for 7 months now due to joint swelling with no end in sight. His doc says it is an adverse reaction to the vaccine, as he has no history of arthritis before the shot.

Anyway, the bottom line is that me, my wife and two kids did contract COVID from a fully vaccinated childcare worker who had a breakthrough case. She was a bit more ill than she let on for about a week in our home before we got it. I don't begrudge her at all, she told us she wasn't feeling good for several days but nobody was concerned it was COVID because after all, she was fully vaccinated. Kids got it first, and the virus turned out to be a non-event for them. They were a little congested for a day or so and knocked it out quickly. They had no reduction in energy. My wife and I each had a headache and sore throat . We each took ivermectin for 5 days and had a mobile provider bring us vitamin IV drips on day 1 and 3 after the positive test. My wife was good in about 3 or 4 days. COVID symptoms lingered for me for about a week. If we didn't have COVID, both my wife and I agreed we felt good enough to go to work - it was thankfully for us a mild to moderate cold. The vaccinated healthcare worker ended up in the ICU however. She went in the day after we tested positive, and fortunately she has recovered. So now based on the data we are seeing, my entire family is several times more protected from COVID - naturally - than a fully vaccinated person who has not been infected. Which is why my answer on the shot is no.

I'm not anti vaccination. It's always a risk equation. As probably everyone on this forum, I've been shot up with plenty of vaccines, especially before living for several months in sub-Saharan Africa back in 2006 (rabies, yellow fever, hep, meningitis, typhoid et all). My last yellow fever shot was in 2013. As for the COVID vaccine, I see no benefit in taking the shot for me or my family members. My physician who has been vaccinated agrees and counseled me that I do not need this vaccine. And I believe if people like me comply with getting a medical treatment that we don't want, and that we don't need, we are on a dangerous road.
 
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BJONES

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I don’t agree that any government should be regulating vaccine requirements. However, like the gentleman above said, “your house, your rules”. I would have no issue with following your rules. If I did have an issue I would simply hunt somewhere else. Everyone (business owner and client) should have that choice. Btw, fully vaccinated here.
 

fourfive8

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I've gotten both Moderna's and will get the booster when available. It's up to the individual of course as long as they suffer the consequences and I don't have to suffer their consequences including having to pay for those consequences.

Seems to me it's up to a private business as to who they choose to do business with. A govt. can dictate to willing sheeple such things but my liberty and what business I choose to patronize is my decision- period! If you are a social distancer or masker just stay away from me- that is your choice!! If a business requires the vax, fine, is up to me, no one else, whether or not to go there. If a safari company requires the vax- no worries for me if that is where I want to go, I would go. If anything that business's decision might have a slightly positive affect on my decision. Simple really. If you choose not to vax then don't use a company that does. Simple really.

I had an interesting conversation with a front line researcher from another country on the subject a month or so ago. He (and they) have known for quite a while the efficacy of the vaccines diminish gradually over time. Since he travels a lot in his work, he actually got a booster a couple of months ago on his own in another country prior to any official govt "authorization" for such. He just stood in line and anonymously got another shot. :):) He said the statistics show that a gradual but measurable decrease in efficacy of resistance to infection starts showing at about 6 months after the original vax. And BTW he is neither a masker nor a distancer, he is a scientist. He is also of the opinion most of the world's population, some 7 billion?, will sooner or later be exposed to this virus or one of its derivatives. Simply can't hide from such things. If you want to hide from or avoid you might be able to for awhile but when you emerge or get exposed... guess who will be waiting? :)

Seems like the best way to fight it or at least deal with it would include: therapeutics, vaccination, acquired immunity (however that is acquired) and basic health. Just don't "follow the science" lecture me from a political perspective about a virus, especially a life form so primitive that at times it acts like a chemical, a non-living cluster of molecules that might as well be an alien life form not to mention one that is .08-.5 microns in diameter!
 
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lwaters

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All I know is we're going on three years of schooling that has been affected. The adults and government have messed up a lot of kids high school years. I think they will go for another one. I'm seeing more people I know getting vaccinated. Most figure they will be forced to by their employer or health insurance.
 

M McDindi

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fourfive8 - "acquired immunity" come when you've had the infection and have recovered from it. So far, "the science" seems to indicate that the antibodies a person gains from this are long term. Trouble is, NO BODY can actually quantify "long term".

I had "it" in Jan of 2020. Just thought it was the regular old flu. Didn't know it was the Rona till I got an an antigen test this Mar of 2021. I presume that is when I had it because that was the only time I'd been sick since. Antibodies were "strong". Crazy thing is my wife tested the same time and had NO antibodies. We both tested again before we went to Bots in Jun 2021. I have antibodies, she didn't. Both came back clear on the RT-PCR test. We both test clear on our return RT-PCR tests coming out of Bots at the end of Jun. Wife and family (BILs/SILs, cousins) all start getting it a few days after July 4th. Wife pretty much knows it came from one of her employees who'd been on vacation and came into work "sick" several days before the 4th and turned out later to test Rona positive AFTER she'd been at work sick for nearly a week. WTF!!

Wife and family member all confirm Rona positive, I'm still Rona negative and strong antibodies. Wife is recovered a week later. I go for my RT-PCR test for my Aug trip to Bots and clean RT-PCR and strong antibodies. Rapid test in Gabbs when we get off the plane is clear for Rona. RT-PCR test coming out of Bots for Rona is clear. Wife tested for antibodies last week and she is now antibody positive and so are all the family who had it. Unfortunately one BIL didn't make it. FUQUE!! Anyway.....

Here's a little tracking page that is supposed to count all Rona cases "diagnosed" via testing in the US from the CDC website. Their math doesn't seem to actually add up. Must be that new shit they teach in schools here: 2+2=white privilege.


So, according to that, somewhere between 33 and 42 million people in the us have confirmed Rona cases and recovered and have some level of "natural immunity". But, it doesn't seem to track/count those people who may have just felt a little off or no symptoms at all and have never been actually tested and recovered.

Oh, and if I remember correctly, there were something around 200K deaths in the last year of the "Orange Man Bad" administration and the media was ape shit. Now, about 9-months into Pee Pad's admin and he's added 450K on top of that and it's crickets. Somehow, I distinctly remember someones campaign promise that he "had a plan" and would stop the Rona in the 1st 100-days of his administration. Hummmmm.......

I guess the only point I'm trying to make is the "science" is all over the place on this. It's everyone's personal responsibility to dig up all the information you can either for or against getting jabbed and either choose or not to choose. It's a very important choice either way, but just remember, once you decide to get jabbed, there is no taking it back, whatever the short or long term outcome may or may not be. I just home "the science" (whatever it turns out to be) is right.
 
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sestoppelman

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I've gotten both Moderna's and will get the booster when available. It's up to the individual of course as long as they suffer the consequences and I don't have to suffer their consequences including having to pay for those consequences.
We all do pay for and have been paying for other peoples bad health habits forever. Nothing new there.
Who do you think pays for unhealthy peoples strokes, cancer and heart attacks, which by the way kills WAAAAAAAAAAAAY more people than Covid does or ever will.
Answer; All of us.
You are all jabbed up, good on ya. Stop worrying about what others do or dont do. You're safe!
Be happy!
 

Red Leg

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1632233833698.png

These are this morning's US totals.

https://www.bing.com/covid/local/unitedstates

Delta clearly seems to have peaked at the end of August in the US. Of course none of the MSM is covering this good news story because it runs counter to the strategy the administration is trying to impose on the country. Fortunately, outside blue America, much of the rest of the country is moving on.

And even in Blue America, this was Penn State stadium Saturday night - 100K maskless fans. Has to give Fauci and CNN the vapors.

penn state1.jpg
 

WAB

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Isn’t it interesting that the SEC went to full attendance at all stadiums 10 days ago and yet our COVID numbers continue to fall? Surely we haven’t been mislead?

I am sure that Fauci and his minions must be working up an explanation that will terrify us all!
 
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bowjijohn

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Got this book after a recommendation from a lad from SF in Southern Cal


For me - it connects a great deal of dots

Though I don't agree with all his opinions, it does makes some sense of modern events
 

M McDindi

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Mark my words. When all this is said and done, Anthony "Rat Face" Fauci will be be somewhere at the root of it all. Too many documents and money trails are coming to light that are linking directly back to him.
 

ActionBob

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My 77 year old healthy as can be mother got the 2 Pfizer shots. And has Covid now.
 

WAB

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