Copper fouling on my new M70

Ridgewalker

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Brushmore, my $.02 worth. My last two rifles have had almost "0" copper fouling even using a wide mix of factory ammo to break them in.
The first was a Tikka T3 stainless steel Lite in 300 WM. It fired 3 shot clusters under 1" of 2 different Federals and 2 different Winchester ammos. Their barrels supposedly come off the same line as the Sako.
The second is an MRC 375 H&H, also stainless steel, I broke in using their procedure and 3 different factory loads. No copper fouling, but lots of powder fouling and it still powder fouls with my handloads so far using Speer, Nosler and Barnes bullets and Hodgdon CFE223, H4895, Varget and H4350 powders.

My barrels were supposedly factory lapped and I believe they were. I suspect your barrel wasn't. I also suspect that once you get a couple of hundred rounds through it that it will be "lapped". If not, you have some options. One you can get some bullet fire lapping compound from Brownell's to coat bullets with and fire them (following their directions). Two you can hand lap the bore using JB Compound also available at Brownell's.

Personally I'd do the 200 rounds and bore snake it or clean it as normal every few rounds or range visit to see how it goes first. It may not even affect your accuracy. In that case I wouldn't touch it.

JMO and good luck with your "almost" new toy!
 

lcq

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I have some guns that don't copper and some that are true copper mines. They all shoot. In a hunting rifle copper fouling really is a non issue because they are always cleaned before the accuracy degrades to the point of being ineffective on game. I used to use Hoppes #9 and Sweets but have become lazy in my old age and 95% of the time Wipeout works first time. For difficult cases (not my guns) I use a brush with Hoppes Elite to get rid of the powder and carbon layers then Wipeout for the copper.
 

Buckdog

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brushmore I mostly agree with 375 ruger fan do not heat the barrel up during break in shoot one or 2 and clean let cool. 10 in a row from a 375 too many in a row for a new barrel in my opinion. As i stated and agree with all other winchester factory barrels are rough. Hoppes bench rest to take out copper fouling is useless! use a ammonia based product I use Sweets 7.62 it gets the copper out quickly and isnt abrasive. I never use abrasive cleaners in my barrels. Some copper fouling is ok as it tens to seal up all the gouges etc in the barrel but if you leave a bunch then more tends to stick to it and you get one hell of a mess to try and clean out! And I would shoot swift A frames and barnes solids in that 375 if I were you, most on this site will highly recommend those bullets. As regards borescopes get the lyman digital works really well. I had a rifle rebrreled and they put on a rough ass barrel i scoped it sent it back and said try again. I wont ruin the rep of the barrel maker because they did say sorry and replaced and the new barrel is really sweet!!
 

brushmore

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@Ridgewalker my Tikka T3 does not foul at all. I put a couple of hundred rounds through it so far, including cheap Russian ammo, and I haven't had any issues with copper. That's why I was a bit surprised with this M70.
 

ChrisG

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My M70 also fouls from using bullets made of pure copper or having pure copper jackets. Gilding alloy is a little harder and more brittle but it also doesn't foul as badly because it is actually a type of brass. The only remover I have used is the Hoppes Elite Copper solvent. It doesn't contain anything that will harm the barrel steel (ammonia) and it works pretty well! I wouldn't use JB Bore paste. It works because it is an abrasive and I don't need to wear my barrels out any faster than shooting them with heavy bullets and 80+ grains of propellant per round. The copper solvents work well, you just have to let them do their thing.
I clean the barrel with Gunzilla and brush it a little with a copper brush, then run a tight fitting dry patch. That removes any of the fouling that isn't copper and exposes the copper to the solvent. Then I run a patch of the Hoppes Elite and let it sit with the barrel level so that it doesn't drain down the barrel. About 30 minutes later, I brush it again and then I run a dry patch down the bore. I only use bore diameter patch jags and I put 2 or three patches on them so that I have to really squeeze them down the barrel. You can repeat this whole process until you get a majority of the copper out or, like most others have said, be content that you got most of the heavy buildup and don't worry about the little bit left. The solvents not only dissolve copper but they also loosen it from the walls of the barrel. It isn't uncommon, after brushing and using really tight fitting patches to get all kinds of flakes of copper out with your first patch after this process. you do have to keep alternating between regular solvent and copper solvent because removing t he copper may expose another layer of carbon and powder soot that will inhibit the copper solvent during the next round.

Copper fouling takes time to remove if you do it in a way that won't damage your gun... or you can use 300 grit sandpaper and it will remove it all in like 3 strokes. But your gun will be a smooth bore before too long.
 

Code4

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I've done break in and it works a treat and it has also done squat. I doubt its the projectiles. You just have a rough bore.
If accuracy is good don't worry about it. Continue as you have.
Mechanical wear from cleaning will eventually smooth out any bore and reduce fouling happening as quickly.
Wait till you have 200+ rounds down the tube and re-assess if it worries you.

Like I said, if it shoots accurately you really don't have a problem .... you've only breached the marketing standards of those selling cleaning products.
 

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The thing about the barrel break in process is that it cannot be proven to work on a specific bore. If you do it or don't the bore has been shot and thus whether you did or did not "break it in" cannot be proven to have been any benefit. If you do it and the rifle shoots great, hey it worked! If you don't do and the rifle shoots great, hey it don't matter! Cannot be verified. Hoppes 9 works great if you don't expect instantaneous results on copper removal. Like I said, I get nice green patches every day after letting soak in 9 overnight. What it don't take out, Barnes CR-10 will.
 

BWH

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Some rifles require a break in... others don't... if after about 5 rounds & accuracy is awesome. You can pass. Regarding ammo.... some ammo that uses a mix of metals, can increase fouling or a colorization. I have read that it is a melting or a residue from the metals, speed, etc. who knows. It was specifically hornady GMX. Barnes makes a good product to swab the barrel with to remove.
 

sestoppelman

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But you still cant prove that break in works on that rifle, because if you keep shooting it without a break in it may start shooting anyway just by shooting the snot out of it. No way to prove it works or not. Don't get me wrong, if I have a brand new barrel and I really want it to shoot, I will do a break in or modified version depending on my much patience I have that day, but I have shot lots of barrels with no break in at all and who knows how they would shoot otherwise. Simply no way to verify that it works, but if we think it worked that's usually good enough. As long as it shoots well.
 

brushmore

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Hornady GMX was exactly the bullet that was causing me the issues.
 

PHOENIX PHIL

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Some of my M70's show copper fouling as a problem, but only with the Barnes TSX/TTSX bullets. I think it's more a function of the reamer and how many barrels have been bored. The more the smaller the bore will be and thus "scrape" off more copper.
 

Edward Wright

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Sweets Cooper Solvent, patched until blue diminishes, then follow with a solvent. Repeat the next day until blue not present. Follow break in above, I have heard this works well, also having a barrel hand lapped will eliminate a lot of fouling issues. I've done both, and both work.
I have a Win model 70 in 375 H&H that I never broke in , but cleaned after every bench session, Shoots under MOA since the day I bought it, just ask my friends on the wall;)
 

Desert Dog

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When using my TSX, TTSX, LRX or GMX loads, I get copper fouling quick in everything I shoot. Doesn't matter if it is a Brux, Bartlein, Krieger, or factory barrel. I am positive its the ammo, not the barrel.

I shoot until accuracy falls off, then use Boretech Eliminator and start again. The increase in copper cleaning intervals is well worth the performance of the bullet in a hunting rifle.
 

larry4831

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The bore may need lapped..... sounds like there are a lot of burrs in the bore
 

8x68

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Someone on another forum had run a thread about this. A gunsmith pointed out that the lands may still not be 100% burr free and are sharp when new on factory rifles. One of the things he suggested was to perform a proper barrel break in routine (fire one clean after each shot for ten rounds, fire three 5 times clean after each 3 shot string, and then shoot five clean and then shoot one fouler). Everyone has their own opinions about how to break in a barrel but this seems to be the most suggested. It's what I use. I found that after about 100 rounds the fouling is reduced in most; not all, my rifles if I use the proper barrel break in method. Eventually your rifle will find it's "sweet spot".
Fouling can also be attributed to the type of bullet you use. Some foul more than others. In the other forum thread the general consensus was that people had the most fouling with Barnes bullets. Again this wont apply to everyone.
I may be out in left field about this but so was Trump..........:sneaky:
 

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I have had a couple rifles that benefitted from a micro ceramic bead treatment called Dyna Bore coat. It comes as a kit with instructions.

Bore is cleaned perfectly clean, the coating applied, allowed to dry, then "shot in".

It turned a couple of .22 centerfire varmint rifles into somewhat more accurate rifles that can shoot many, many more shots before cleaning is necessary, something appreciated in a ground squirrel infested pasture. It also helped transform an ancient 9x57 with a dark rough bore into a decent shooter that does not foul.
 

colorado

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When using my TSX, TTSX, LRX or GMX loads, I get copper fouling quick in everything I shoot. Doesn't matter if it is a Brux, Bartlein, Krieger, or factory barrel. I am positive its the ammo, not the barrel.

I shoot until accuracy falls off, then use Boretech Eliminator and start again. The increase in copper cleaning intervals is well worth the performance of the bullet in a hunting rifle.

I've switched to A-Frames in my 500 Jeffery from TSX's. The TSX's were very accurate and fed very well, but fouled badly. The A-Frames shoot just as well and there's almost no copper fouling at all.
 

ve7poi

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If had just the reverse Aframe copper mine, TSX nil in 500J
Every rifle a law unto its self both shoot very well so have no problem using either one.
 

brushmore

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Just a follow up to this, I tried Wipe-Out which was one of the suggestions and I let it soak overnight. Next day the fouling was all gone and I finally could run a patch through and have it clean on the other end! Now I just need more practice so I can get my zebra in March with it!
 

Shootist43

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I replied to this thread earlier. I didn't see any comments on the only two copper removers that really work. Someone mentioned lapping the barrel. I assume he ment "fire-lapping" which still might be a viable option.

Have you done any follow up work with rifle, if so what was the result?
 

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