Copper fouling in my Verney-Carron

Discussion in 'Double Rifles' started by dougfinn, Feb 13, 2019.

  1. dougfinn

    dougfinn AH Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2016
    Messages:
    35
    Video/Photo:
    4
    Likes Received:
    18
    Hi all. I have a VC double in 450-400 NE and am in the process of cleaning the barrels. I've only put 4 rounds through it myself, as well as the ones fired at the proofhouse, so it has not had a lot of rounds put through it yet. My concern is the amount of copper fouling in the barrels. The lands looked like they were copper plated. I've been cleaning it for several hours now using Pro Shot copper solvent IV in conjunction with patches, bronze bore brush and even 0000 steel wool. The build up is less evident now on visual inspection but the patches are still coming out bright blue, so I think I'll be spending a few more hours on the barrels.
    The only ammo its been fed is Hornady DGS. Its my understanding these bullets have a copper wash over the steel case. Is this why its leaving so much copper behind? Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks.
     
    Philip Glass likes this.

  2. GA Hunter

    GA Hunter AH Fanatic

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2017
    Messages:
    537
    Video/Photo:
    23
    Likes Received:
    652
    Location:
    USA , GA
    I have fought many a battle with barrels that foul badly and I have my own methods however in your case I would suggest contacting VC for their suggestions.

    One thing I will say is that I do not think they will care to hear much about the use of steel wool.

    Good luck.

    BD
     
    Philip Glass likes this.

  3. Hogpatrol

    Hogpatrol AH ENABLER SILVER SUPPORTER AH Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2013
    Messages:
    4,210
    Video/Photo:
    52
    Likes Received:
    8,041
    Location:
    Delaware, USA
    Member of:
    Atglen Sportsmen's Club, NRA ,SCCFSA, Bridgeville Rifle & Pistol Club
    Hunted:
    RSA, DE, NJ, PA, KS, TX, ME
    Try J.B. Bore Paste or IOSSO Bore Cleaner on a patch wrapped around a bronze or nylon brush. If you prefer a solvent, Sweet's 7.62 or Bore-Tech will work well. Agree with GA Hunter, contact VC and steel wool is a good way to ruin the barrel.
     
    gillettehunter and meigsbucks like this.

  4. bruce moulds

    bruce moulds AH Elite

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2018
    Messages:
    1,074
    Likes Received:
    909
    doug,
    copper solvents do not get better than proshot IV.
    a nylon brushing with ample solvent in the bores seems to help it work, but soaking is the secret.
    abrasives like jb will also help.
    sometimes a bronze brushing with hoppes9 after using proshot will help.
    steel wool will damage your bores.
    copper or brass wool might do less damage.
    your new barrels might clean up better with more shots as they are obviously not run in yet.
    cleaning often in the early stages of a barrels life will help it fun in.
    bruce.
     
    Hogpatrol likes this.

  5. meigsbucks

    meigsbucks AH Fanatic

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2011
    Messages:
    749
    Video/Photo:
    16
    Likes Received:
    658
    Location:
    Central Ohio
    Member of:
    SCI, NRA Life Member
    Hunted:
    Zimbabwe and Namibia
    I agree with hog patrol. JB paste works great. If you prefer a chemical versus abrasive method, I use Barnes CR-10 or Shooters Choice Copper Solvent.
    Steel wool is a big NO!
     
    Hogpatrol likes this.

  6. Red Leg

    Red Leg AH ENABLER LIFETIME BRONZE BENEFACTOR AH Legend

    Joined:
    May 19, 2009
    Messages:
    4,171
    Video/Photo:
    236
    Likes Received:
    8,756
    Location:
    Texas Hill Country
    Member of:
    SCI DSC life memberships / NRA Patron Life
    Hunted:
    Mexico, Namibia, RSA, Germany, Austria, Argentina, Canada, Mozambique, Spain, US (15 states)
    This will sound like heresy to many, but unless accuracy is affected, why worry? The copper is filling irregularities in the barrel. I currently own several dozen rifles, and have owned many dozen others. I use only balistoil. Usually, only ballistol with a cloth patch - and not real often with that. I bet I haven't used a copper solvent in thirty-years or more. And virtually all of my rifles are MOA or better, and the perhaps three or four that aren't don't have copper issues - they are pre-WWI or WWII take-downs.
     
    Philip Glass, ack, NurseFet and 7 others like this.

  7. Eric Anderson

    Eric Anderson AH Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2017
    Messages:
    376
    Video/Photo:
    3
    Likes Received:
    340
    Hunted:
    RSA
    Copper fouling can be an issue. Low volume rifles you won’t really notice it. The more fouling a barrel has though, the faster it tends to accumulate.

    Some copper fouling can actually improve accuracy. Some rifles bores just shoot better slightly fouled. Some don’t.
    All rifle barrels can get to the point where it has a serious effect on accuracy. I have seen barrels so fouled the bullets keyhold.
    Most rifles aren’t shot enough to get to that point though. I believe barrel temp has a lot to do with it as well. Semis tend to accumulate a lot more copper in my experience than a bolt gun in the same caliber.

    Pushing bullets really fast or with hot burning powder also seems to really accelerate copper fouling.

    My favorite hunting rifles have a definite poi shift between a fouled barrel and a clean one.
    That is why I always zero a cold bore ever so slightly fouled barrel (5 rounds of fouling)

    I do that because it is repeatable.

    Cold bore clean only gets you one shot, cold bore slightly fouled gets you lots of good shots.

    After hunting trip, I clean the hell out of the bore and then foul it.
     
    Scott CWO, Shootist43 and Hogpatrol like this.

  8. Red Leg

    Red Leg AH ENABLER LIFETIME BRONZE BENEFACTOR AH Legend

    Joined:
    May 19, 2009
    Messages:
    4,171
    Video/Photo:
    236
    Likes Received:
    8,756
    Location:
    Texas Hill Country
    Member of:
    SCI DSC life memberships / NRA Patron Life
    Hunted:
    Mexico, Namibia, RSA, Germany, Austria, Argentina, Canada, Mozambique, Spain, US (15 states)
    After a hunting trip, I clean it lightly. We all have different experiences. I have never ever had a POI shift from copper fowling.
     

  9. Eric Anderson

    Eric Anderson AH Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2017
    Messages:
    376
    Video/Photo:
    3
    Likes Received:
    340
    Hunted:
    RSA
    Most of my rifles don’t, out of 20, only two of mine do, they just so happen to be my favorites.
    The barrels that I have seen so bad they keyhole the rifling was almost filled in. Not mine, so I have no idea how that happened.
    /shrug

    Every barrel is different. What works for one barrel may not work for another.
     

  10. Hogpatrol

    Hogpatrol AH ENABLER SILVER SUPPORTER AH Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2013
    Messages:
    4,210
    Video/Photo:
    52
    Likes Received:
    8,041
    Location:
    Delaware, USA
    Member of:
    Atglen Sportsmen's Club, NRA ,SCCFSA, Bridgeville Rifle & Pistol Club
    Hunted:
    RSA, DE, NJ, PA, KS, TX, ME
    I borescope mine after cleaning and some of them retain a bit of copper. As previously posted, some are ok with copper and some will get a buildup and need it removed to retain accuracy.
     
    Scott CWO likes this.

  11. dougfinn

    dougfinn AH Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2016
    Messages:
    35
    Video/Photo:
    4
    Likes Received:
    18
    Well I finally got it clean after 6 hours of soaking in copper solvent and wiping. I’m still wondering if it’s the copper wash on the Hornady bullets that coming off and fouling the rifling. I’ve had green and blue patches from my other rifles when using the copper solvent, but never so bad that it was visible in the bore, and quite heavy looking by the looks of it. I understand the hesitation to use steel wool, but I’ve used 0000 on restorations to remove rust and that’s all it removes, it even leaves the bluing if done gently. I’ve got some Woodleighs I’m going to load so I’ll see if they also foul the barrel.
     

  12. IvW

    IvW AH Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2016
    Messages:
    2,020
    Video/Photo:
    57
    Likes Received:
    3,299
    Location:
    South Africa
    Member of:
    BASA, CHASA
    Hunted:
    South Africa, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Botswana, Namibia,Zambia
    Brass only solids and expanding bullets by Rhino bullets.

    The bullets are also moly-coated, which lowers the chamber pressure somewhat while reducing copper fouling in the barrel.
     

  13. 1dirthawker

    1dirthawker AH Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2013
    Messages:
    406
    Video/Photo:
    13
    Likes Received:
    565
    i also agree with hog patrol, the reason for buildup of copper is likely a rough bore. the jb paste will smooth that out and making the bore smoother will always leave less fouling.
     
    Hogpatrol likes this.

  14. L'Atelier Verney-Carron

    L'Atelier Verney-Carron SPONSOR Since 2018 AH Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2018
    Messages:
    266
    Video/Photo:
    124
    Likes Received:
    92
    Location:
    France
    hi,
    Please use solvant and patches but not steel wool.Even if it's soft wool, it's abrasive product.
    just carefull with some solvent, must be stop with oïl after some time.
    Best regards
    jérome
     

  15. Hogpatrol

    Hogpatrol AH ENABLER SILVER SUPPORTER AH Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2013
    Messages:
    4,210
    Video/Photo:
    52
    Likes Received:
    8,041
    Location:
    Delaware, USA
    Member of:
    Atglen Sportsmen's Club, NRA ,SCCFSA, Bridgeville Rifle & Pistol Club
    Hunted:
    RSA, DE, NJ, PA, KS, TX, ME
    Jerome, just curious, how are the barrels rifled, button, cut or hammer forged? Also, are they lapped before and after rifling?
     

  16. ve7poi

    ve7poi AH Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2013
    Messages:
    478
    Video/Photo:
    9
    Likes Received:
    256
    Location:
    Taylor British Columbia Canada
    Member of:
    Life member SCI
    Hunted:
    British Columbia, Alberta, South Africa
    I Use wipe out let set overnight and run a patch through next day it does not harm barrels sitting for a day and helps prevent fouling. New rifle usually shoot and clean every round for first 10 then when needed.
    Just don’t get one stock or in action take barrels off to clean.
     

  17. Shootist43

    Shootist43 AH ENABLER GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2015
    Messages:
    4,588
    Video/Photo:
    22
    Likes Received:
    3,675
    Location:
    Grosse Ile, Michigan
    Member of:
    NRA
    Hunted:
    Michigan, Texas, Missouri, Limpopo Province South Africa
    The need for and the frequency of copper fouling removal has been a contentious topic over the years. IMHO Eric Anderson's post clearly states the obvious. All barrels will need it at some time or other, and that some barrels need it more often. If you are really interested in the topic "google it" and you will find that there two products that clearly outshine (no pun intended) all others. One developed by Uncle Sam for his "big bores" called KG -12. The other is Bore Tech's CU +2. One thing to note is that you cannot use a copper Jag or Phosphor Bronze brush with a good copper remover. Nickle plated Jags and Nylon brushes must be used to insure that the copper being removed is indeed coming from the barrel.
     
    Hogpatrol likes this.

  18. ve7poi

    ve7poi AH Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2013
    Messages:
    478
    Video/Photo:
    9
    Likes Received:
    256
    Location:
    Taylor British Columbia Canada
    Member of:
    Life member SCI
    Hunted:
    British Columbia, Alberta, South Africa
    Very true after break in I only use solvent and dry patch or bore snake until accuracy drops off the clean bore really well usually takes 3or 4 shots to settle rifle down again.
    I’ve gone as long as 200 rounds before accuracy falls off at times.
     
    Hogpatrol likes this.

  19. Blue Moon

    Blue Moon AH Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2018
    Messages:
    54
    Likes Received:
    42
    I usually run a couple of patches with denaturated alcohol/methylated spirits (and end with a dry patch) after the main cleaning is done. This generally removes the need for taking "settle down shots" after cleaning.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2019

  20. Hogpatrol

    Hogpatrol AH ENABLER SILVER SUPPORTER AH Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2013
    Messages:
    4,210
    Video/Photo:
    52
    Likes Received:
    8,041
    Location:
    Delaware, USA
    Member of:
    Atglen Sportsmen's Club, NRA ,SCCFSA, Bridgeville Rifle & Pistol Club
    Hunted:
    RSA, DE, NJ, PA, KS, TX, ME
    After cleaning, I run a wet patch of Marvel Mystery Oil down the bore. Some use Kroil, Hoppe's #9 or other liquid that leaves a film. I never shoot a dry bore on a first shot after cleaning. YMMV.
     
    Scott CWO likes this.

Share This Page

 
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice