Client Rents Rifle, Client Damages Rifle or Scope, Who Should Be Responsible for Repair?

[LimbNoMo]

How did he come to drop the rifle?

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

I think there’s a couple different aspects to this, but personally would offer to cover damages regardless of which one it falls to. I could see the PH being frustrated an “offer” wasn’t made, but declining if it was.

Personally, if I’m borrowing a rifle (only done it once if Africa and once in the states when the airlines lost mine), I’d never ask about damages before. I don’t want the PH/Outfitter to wonder if I’m careless and gonna break their stuff. I feel like it’d steer a bad tone for the hunt before it even began.

My questions would be did the client carelessly drop the rifle or lean it against the truck? Or was it a genuine accident and the client dropped the rifle in the process of falling him/herself? Were they navigating some difficult terrain the guide led them through? I’ve dropped a rifle and done a lot of pushups for it. I’ve also damaged more than one scope on my rifles going ass over tea kettle down the mountain because a rock slipped or I lost my footing. I’ve had a horse crush a rifle and scope when they stumbled and got thrown/bailed. In both these instances I was as banged up as the rifle and signed something saying I couldn’t hold them liable for bodily injury it was an accepted risk.

To me this brings up some interesting questions that I’ve never thought of. This one also happened to me; hunting on horseback and the outfitters horse walks/runs against some rocks on a narrow tree or leans against some trees rubbing and cracks the rifle stock, who’s liable?
If your horseback hunting and a horse or part of the pack string looses its footing and goes over the cliff is the client liable?
If you’re hound hunting and an outfitters dog gets torn up or killed due to no fault of the hunter are they liable since it was their hunt?
What if you’re leopard hunting with hounds, the cat charges and the bullet exits the cat and hits a dog on the back side?
What if there’s an unprovoked charge and in shooting the animal off the person being gored/mauled the round exits and hits a limb flailing around in the melee are you liable?

I’m sure others, can think up some other scenarios or instances they’ve experienced.

 

[Betterinthebush]

What if you’re leopard hunting with hounds, the cat charges and the bullet exits the cat and hits a dog on the back side?

I actually asked this question of my houndsman. He told me to practice on making that first shot a killing shot and come to the hunt in good physical shape.

A half-dead cat at the bottom of a tree or rock that gets hold of a dog is a danger, but a danger that doesn’t last long if I do my job. the danger to the hounds is part of the hunt and is his responsibility, not mine.

 

[MS 9x56]

With what direction people have made a change in responiblty of damage. I would not allow a client to use one of my rifle-scope with out a contract. Stipulating damage they cause during there use of a rifle-scope is there responiblty to pay for damage. Even pictures before the hunt and after.

I've had hunters show up at camp and not have the proper equipment to spend the day in the woods hunting, from guns to boots. Then ask me if I had the equipment for them to use. First couple years I lent my equipment out. Then I got smart and told them to go to the nearest town 50 miles away and get when is needed. Had one young guy not bring proper cold weather gear, but was to cheep to go to town and get a good coat. After 4 days he packed up and left, couldn't take the cold and didn't want to get a coat or even some Heat Packs to help keep himself warm.

Just goes to prove you can’t fix stupid.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

How did he come to drop the rifle?

A very good question.

 

[Sabre]

How did he come to drop the rifle?

A very good question.

I believe he slipped and fell down

 

[Ridge Runner]

It depends on how you were raised.

I was raised... if you borrow it return it in the same condition you borrowed it in. If you break it repair or replace it. If the person borrowing it from knew it was going to break while you had it, let them know it broke and offer to help pay for repairs....offer doesn't always mean be responsible to help pay....it's a case by case situation.

If you borrow it more than twice buy one for yourself.

I read where some responses compared renting a rifle to renting a vehicle....that's IMO comparing apples to oranges!

In reference to the OP's scenario....

Questions:

Why did the client fall and What caused the client to drop the rifle onto a rock that caused the scope to be damaged?

IMPO...Shit Happens....Too many lack of details and variables to say should the client be fully responsible for repairs or replacement of the scope. However, the client should accept some responsibility and offer to assist in costs to repair or replace the scope.

 

[mark-hunter]

If you borrow it more than twice buy one for yourself.

My philosophy, too!

 

[Doug Hamilton]

I was raised... if you borrow it return it in the same condition you borrowed it in. If you break it repair or replace it. If the person borrowing it from knew it was going to break while you had it, let them know it broke and offer to help pay for repairs....offer doesn't always mean be responsible to help pay....it's a case by case situation.

If you borrow it more than twice buy one for yourself.

I read where some responses compared renting a rifle to renting a vehicle....that's IMO comparing apples to oranges!

In reference to the OP's scenario....

Questions:

Why did the client fall and What caused the client to drop the rifle onto a rock that caused the scope to be damaged?

IMPO...Shit Happens....Too many lack of details and variables to say should the client be fully responsible for repairs or replacement of the scope. However, the client should accept some responsibility and offer to assist in costs to repair or replace the scope.

I guess if it was an act.of carelessness on the part of the client he should have responsibility for replace or repair. If it happened on the hunt and a trip or fall caused the damage then maybe that's why the outfitter charges money for the use of the firearm.

 

[jlb1036]

renting a firearm also means you damage it break it you pay for it period .

 

[LimbNoMo]

We should ask @Rare Breed his opinions on this…after all, they’re only light scratches - used on one hunt.

 

[skydiver386]

We should ask @Rare Breed his opinions on this…after all, they’re only light scratches - used on one hunt.

"Ladies and Gentlemen it's LimbNoMo with the elbow from the Top Rope!"

 

[Doug Hamilton]

I was raised... if you borrow it return it in the same condition you borrowed it in. If you break it repair or replace it. If the person borrowing it from knew it was going to break while you had it, let them know it broke and offer to help pay for repairs....offer doesn't always mean be responsible to help pay....it's a case by case situation.

If you borrow it more than twice buy one for yourself.

I read where some responses compared renting a rifle to renting a vehicle....that's IMO comparing apples to oranges!

In reference to the OP's scenario....

Questions:

Why did the client fall and What caused the client to drop the rifle onto a rock that caused the scope to be damaged?

IMPO...Shit Happens....Too many lack of details and variables to say should the client be fully responsible for repairs or replacement of the scope. However, the client should accept some responsibility and offer to assist in costs to repair or replace the scope.

There is also a difference between borrowed and rented. At any rate, I always make a point of using my own guns. No confusion that way.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

renting a firearm also means you damage it break it you pay for it period .

Can't remember seeing that written anywhere.

 

[Ridge Runner]

Can't remember seeing that written anywhere.

Perhaps I and some, most, others have a higher morals and ethics understanding in life due to our upbringing.

It's an unwritten morals and ethics rule. You borrow "it" you're responsible for "it".

If you are not willing to accept the responsibility of borrowing "it" don't ask to use "it".

If it has to be in writing, maybe you should use your own. And if you don't own one ....it's a good decision on your part, that you need to buy "it" and accept the inconvenience to you, so you don't have to ask to borrow "it".

"It", meaning whatever you want to borrow or rent. Because it's more convenient for you, than providing your own.

Just saying.......

 

[quandary]

Not opining on whether or not the client should pay for the repair, presumably that is covered in the rental agreement. If it isn't, it should be. Rather I would take a different view of what is "normal wear and tear". Rifles are dropped all the time hunting. Climbing up a steep slope, slipping on a muddy river bank, the Alders catch your rifle and pull it off a shoulder or out of your hands. This is all normal and can happen routinely. After all hunting is not a walk in the park.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

Perhaps I and some, most, others have a higher morals and ethics understanding in life due to our upbringing.

It's an unwritten morals and ethics rule. You borrow "it" you're responsible for "it".

If you are not willing to accept the responsibility of borrowing "it" don't ask to use "it".

If it has to be in writing, maybe you should use your own. And if you don't own one ....it's a good decision on your part, that you need to buy "it" and accept the inconvenience to you, so you don't have to ask to borrow "it".

"It", meaning whatever you want to borrow or rent. Because it's more convenient for you, than providing your own.

Just saying.......

I would agree with that. The issue is, are you borrowing or renting? If I accept money in exchange for the use of an item you are not " borrowing." If I charge a.fee for rent I will accept a certain risk in exchange for the money. Those with a higher sense of morals should understand that.

I never rent or borrow guns or much of anything else, but I do understand that there is a difference. If you rented a house and it burned to the ground for any reason other than maybe arson, the loss of the.house is on the.owner or his insurance. Those with a higher sense of morals or good business sense would understand that.

 

[Rez Exelon]

I think the big disagreement in this thread, without throwing personal morals and upbringing accusations is maybe that there's a different viewpoint of borrowing and renting and that they are not interchangeable. My take on the two and their differences:

Borrowing --- this is generally a courtesy and done "handshake and a promise" style. Generally speaking borrowing entails a higher level of responsibility on the part of the borrower to get the equipment back in the same or better condition to the person who lent it.

Renting --- this is, or should be, covered by an agreement spelling on the costs, responsibilities and expectations. As a financial contract, clarity should be provided as to what is considered normal, expectations if something happens, in case of an accident etc.

IMHO renting is effectively a for-profit thing rather than solely a goodness of the heart affair. With rental properties, I have to define expectations for normal wear and tear versus "yeah, no, you don't get that security deposit back". I can't expect that the property isn't going to take some wear as people live there, but I can also expect all the copper to still be in the walls when they leave.

On the other hand, when I was out of college, didn't have a place, and I was couch surfing, I borrowed space with friends and relatives and I tried to keep the place tidy, and do bonus stuff at the house to help out as a thanks.

 

[Doug Hamilton]

I think the big disagreement in this thread, without throwing personal morals and upbringing accusations is maybe that there's a different viewpoint of borrowing and renting and that they are not interchangeable. My take on the two and their differences:

Borrowing --- this is generally a courtesy and done "handshake and a promise" style. Generally speaking borrowing entails a higher level of responsibility on the part of the borrower to get the equipment back in the same or better condition to the person who lent it.

Renting --- this is, or should be, covered by an agreement spelling on the costs, responsibilities and expectations. As a financial contract, clarity should be provided as to what is considered normal, expectations if something happens, in case of an accident etc.

IMHO renting is effectively a for-profit thing rather than solely a goodness of the heart affair. With rental properties, I have to define expectations for normal wear and tear versus "yeah, no, you don't get that security deposit back". I can't expect that the property isn't going to take some wear as people live there, but I can also expect all the copper to still be in the walls when they leave.

On the other hand, when I was out of college, didn't have a place, and I was couch surfing, I borrowed space with friends and relatives and I tried to keep the place tidy, and do bonus stuff at the house to help out as a thanks.

Well said. I agree completely. Intentional destruction of property, such as arson or theft should never be acceptable. .

 

[Ridge Runner]

I would agree with that. The issue is, are you borrowing or renting? If I accept money in exchange for the use of an item you are not " borrowing." If I charge a.fee for rent I will accept a certain risk in exchange for the money. Those with a higher sense of morals should understand that.

I never rent or borrow guns or much of anything else, but I do understand that there is a difference. If you rented a house and it burned to the ground for any reason other than maybe arson, the loss of the.house is on the.owner or his insurance. Those with a higher sense of morals or good business sense would understand that.

Cars, houses, vs a rifle, lawn mower, farm implement, is comparing apples to oranges.

Cars, houses, apartment, etc these things the renter and owner has the option to purchase insurance to cover their respective personal losses.

Borrowing or renting a rifle, the neighbors mower, and like items there is no option to purchase insurance against loss or damage.

I personally make sure if a person asks to borrow or use something from me I expect them to return it to me and not loan it to someone else without my okay. Regardless they either return the item in the same condition they received it, otherwise they get it properly repaired or replace it.

In reference to the OP regarding borrowing/ renting a rifle: Fair wear and tear means expect nicks, and scratches, from normal use and the borrower trying to limit such nicks and scratches.

A sling stud causes the borrower to lose control/ possession of the rifle; the rifle hits the dirt, rocks, etc, that's on the rifle owner. However, the borrower/ renter should also be mindful that the sling stud is/ has worked loose and make the rifle owner aware or the problem so the owner can/ has the opportunity to repair it.

The borrower/ renter is just plain clumsy, falls, and breaks the scope, stock, etc. that's on the borrower/ renter, and not normal wear and tear. The borrower should pay for the damage(s).

Anyone that can't treat a loaner rifle better than their own, should just accept the inconvenience and bring their own rifle.

The loaner may not be a Rigby, H&H, etc. But to a reputable outfitter, PH, their loaner rifle means just as much to them.