Clarification on PAC Elephant hunts Zimbabwe

richteb

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I have just finished watching a hunting DVD that has a number of elephant hunts that were apparently PAC. All were take by clients.

I am under the impression that an PAC animal cannot be hunted by visiting hunter in Zimabawe. Can anyone clarify this this for me?

Now I am not sure how old this DVD is, however I suspect that it is some years old. Would there have been a change in the rules for hunting PAC say in the last 5 years?

Any information would be highly appreciated.
 

Mike70560

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Rich,

As of today it is illegal for a foreign tourist hunter to kill a PAC elephant.

Unfortunately if you pay of the right official you could shoot a unicorn in Zim. That is why some operators still offer PAC.

I was offered a PAC elephant last week by a SA operator in Zim. He swears it is legal but it is not.

Rumor is Zim is starting to crackdown on some of the shady operators. I hope it is true and it is way past time.

Personally I wish PAC were legal.
 

BRICKBURN

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All I have read it is ILLEGAL for us foreign folk to participate in PAC.
Outfitters rationalize the legality of the hunt all the time.

See if you ever have Martin or others of his association offering a PAC hunt!
 

richteb

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This is actually what I found interesting in as the safari company who produced this DVD is a well known Zimbabwe operator and I am certain that they are members of all the right associations. Also this was not about a single PAC hunt but a number that were shown. As I stated earlier this DVD and therefore the hunts occurred some time ago and the laws may have been different back then. This is also part of the information that I am seeking.

If laws governing PAC hunts have not changed then this operator is blantanly advertising illegal hunts and actually documenting them on DVD for all to see.
 
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Guys. PAC hunts are ilegal to be hunted by a foreighn hunter in zim.Martin have already put the info on this forum.I think it was earlier this year, maybe you can look this up.If you have questions on this subject , its better to contact Martin directly.Better to have the correct info before hand.
 

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Ok Guys I'm still new to this so due to the lack of Knowledge what is PAC?
 

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(Problem Animal Control) PAC
 

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Thanks, now knowing this and reading through this thread brings up another question, on another thread it talked about mr GoDaddy hunting a PAC Elephant where was he hunting at? I didn't get that part.
 

Ole Bally

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The rise of PAC hunts being offered by 'operators' has had a very negative effect on the training of young learner PH's and Guides. In times gone by, these animals were the training domain of the young and inexperienced guys! Each year several districts get a PAC quota which allows (mostly Ele) to be shot in the fields where they are destroying crops or being a nuisance around 'built up' areas. This is now abused. The Operators can smell a quick buck and sell these animals as an addendum to their hunt quotas...except that the money isn't taxed nor accounted for! The down side is now that the young learner PH's and Guides cannot get the experience they so badly need simply coz they cannot afford to pay the Rural District Councils what the operators pay them! These youngsters earn a pittance and have to have at least 4 Ele on their log books before they are even considered for being able to go on the proficiency exam. Most of them'd have to work about 16 months for free to be able to shoot their 4 Ele's! Please discourage your mates from buying PAC hunts...they are illegal!
For evil to triumph...it takes good men to do nothing!
 

richteb

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The rise of PAC hunts being offered by 'operators' has had a very negative effect on the training of young learner PH's and Guides. In times gone by, these animals were the training domain of the young and inexperienced guys! Each year several districts get a PAC quota which allows (mostly Ele) to be shot in the fields where they are destroying crops or being a nuisance around 'built up' areas. This is now abused. The Operators can smell a quick buck and sell these animals as an addendum to their hunt quotas...except that the money isn't taxed nor accounted for! The down side is now that the young learner PH's and Guides cannot get the experience they so badly need simply coz they cannot afford to pay the Rural District Councils what the operators pay them! These youngsters earn a pittance and have to have at least 4 Ele on their log books before they are even considered for being able to go on the proficiency exam. Most of them'd have to work about 16 months for free to be able to shoot their 4 Ele's! Please discourage your mates from buying PAC hunts...they are illegal!
For evil to triumph...it takes good men to do nothing!

Ole Bally,
This is what I suspected from discussions with my PH and the operator in Zim. My PH was about to do hid proficiency test to be able to hunt elephant. Also the information I got was that in fact PAC elephant are actually only allowed to be shot whilst actually raiding crops. This involves mainly shooting them at night in the moonlight. Not sure how true this is, but would certainly be something that no PH would take a client to do as would be fairly dangerous.

What I do not understand is if selling PAC hunts to overseas clients is illegal, and operators who do this advertise the fact on DVDs and at hunting shows, one would think that SOAZ or similar would do something about it. I do understand that all safari operators need to make a living and almost entirely rely on us foreign hunters for their income, and let's face it the cost of a PAC hunt is far cheaper then a trophy animal makes this a very attractive option to visiting hunters, however in the end it seems that it's still illegal.

What I also find hypocritical in all this the same operators that do these hunts are promoting ethical and fair chase hunting as the corner stone of their operation.

Maybe I am missing something in all this, I personally would not take part in PAC hunts unless they legal.
 

Ole Bally

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Richteb, If only you knew!
SOAZ is in fact toothless! The chairmanship is pretty much a political appointment...need I say more?!
PAC Ele's can be shot in daylight and do not have to be raiding crops at the time. They may be a menace in other ways too! But yes in general they are shot at night with a spotlight or in the full moon period by starlight. In some areas it's become a 'modus operandi' to hunt them at night as it's the only time they stray out of 'protected areas' like NP's.
The old ethics are much eroded by the financial lusts! They're not doing it 'for the love of it' anymore! Those PH's that still have the 'romantic' idea ala Ruark etc soon come down to earth with a bump when it's time to pay school fees etc! In fact the best description of a modern PH's job description comes from one of Capstick's books!
Unfortunately our NP dept are also on the gravy train and will allow just about anything that'll help pay their wages! ie you can get a 'legal' permit for just about anything...finance permitting! But at the end of the day it is ilegal for a tourist to shoot PAC animals as there is no 'TR2' documents issued. This is the 'permission to hunt' doc from NP which covers everything from places, who, where, how much paid, trophy sizes etc etc. A copy of which is submitted to our Tax people.
A blind eye is turned to a lot of things until it's time to shove the knife in! In these underhanded dealings you are always liable to become the subject of the witchhunts when a scapegoat is needed if you're playing the game with them!
Always beware of the cheap...it's generally gonna cost you somewhere down the line! Some people have found that out through the 'Lacey Act'!!!
 

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Is there a difference between a PAC hunt and a non-trophy elephant hunt? Is the non-trophy hunt legal?
 

richteb

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Is there a difference between a PAC hunt and a non-trophy elephant hunt? Is the non-trophy hunt legal?

Ikeda, from what I know the non-trophy ( or Managment animal) is allowed to be hunted by foreign hunters and are not exportable. I believe that some country's also have Ration elephant or at least use to ( Zim is one that I know of). It may even be that Managment and ration are the same thing. Perhaps someone else can clarify this.
 

Ole Bally

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Yes there is a difference!! PAC is simply 'Problem Animal Control' which foreigners are not allowed to shoot, and Non Trophy Hunts are hunts for 'Tuskless Cow Elephant' which are quite legal. They appear on the annual quota sheet for an area, are paid for by the operator up front to NP or the CAMPFIRE Council and are accounted for on their TR2 documentation.
To explain a bit, CITES issues TAGs allowing a certain number of Appendix 2 animals trophies to be exported from host countries to other countries (ie USA). Zim's Ele quota is 500 BULLS. Thus only the ivory, skin, bones (any durable portion) of those 500 Bulls may be exported. No other Elephant product may be exported unless it has supporting CITES permits. Some Elephant product curios may have cites permits.
The country receiving those trophies or products are under cites obligation to check the permits and thus CITES controls the exports of 'endangered' species globally.
CITES permits / tags are issued for Elephant, Nile Crocodile, Leopard, Lion, Cheetah in Zimbabwe.
The hunter wanting to take trophies from those animals into their own country have to get the proper importation docs ready prior to the safari!
Hope that helps!
 

Mike70560

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Ole Bally,

I think Ikeda is referring to hunting non trophy bulls. These hunts are marketed as being non-exportable and not as PAC elephants.

The operators claim to have the proper paperwork on hand.

As I understand there are no permits issued by parks for non-trophy elephant bulls.
 

Ole Bally

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There are NO non trophy Bulls! Any animal of the correct sex that appears on the quota may be shot. But it does get to come off the quota and a TR2 has to be opened before and completed after the hunt If one was to shoot one under 30lbs either by accident (it's still come off the quota) or in self defence (this wouldn't but it becomes a 'State Trophy'), the Operator has questions to answer and he wouldn't get away with it any sort of regularity. The point is he couldn't 'market' that! There would be little point in shooting a small bull when there are bigger ones in the area. If he has say 5 bulls on his quota he would want to maximise on his income by taking the biggest possible...for the bragging and marketing rights!
Do you perhaps have an example of one of these hunts marketed I could look at?
 

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