"Cheap" Hunts

numzaanstef

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To all the hunting clients out there a question.

Being a Hunting Outfitter for 23 year in I have noticed that there has been a shift in the industry to many different directions. Lately it has become move in the cheapest possible hunt direction.

My question.

Is the quality of the Safari less important than the price?
 
I think you will find all kinds of answers to that question. For some - perhaps many - the price is the most important factor. Having said that, I don't believe anyone would knowingly buy a "second rate" safari just because the price is low. In my case, price is not the most important factor, but it will always be an important factor. The quality of the safari is very important to me, and I buy accordingly.

This is your thread, and I don't want to hijack it, but it occurs to me to ask you a question. Which came first - the demand for the "cheapest possible" hunt or outfitters competing against each other and putting those offers out there? For example, I have seen some offers for hunts with no day rate at all, so long as you take certain animals. It would never occur to me to ask for such a thing - have other hunters? Or is this something outfitters have dreamed up to try to attract more business?

Are you (outfitters) helping yourselves or demeaning the value of your product?
 
Numzaan, cheap doesn't always mean less quality, but I understand your point of view.

Hank, I can't answer for all outfitters, but this is our situation in Mozambique, we get given set quotas, use it or lose it. If I don't shoot the quota I get set for the year, chances are they will cut your quota for the next season. If a hunt is booked and the animal tags paid up front and the client has to cancel for legit reason, instead of losing money on the tag, we will offer the hunt for a cheaper price.
 
Numzaan, cheap doesn't always mean less quality, but I understand your point of view.

Hank, I can't answer for all outfitters, but this is our situation in Mozambique, we get given set quotas, use it or lose it. If I don't shoot the quota I get set for the year, chances are they will cut your quota for the next season. If a hunt is booked and the animal tags paid up front and the client has to cancel for legit reason, instead of losing money on the tag, we will offer the hunt for a cheaper price.

I get that TMS - same thing in Zim I think - in fact you have to pay on the fixed quota whether you sell the hunt or not. But I don' think of these as "cheap" hunts - "discounted" (for a reason) perhaps but not what I think Numzaan was getting at - "cheapest possible hunt direction" which I took to mean something else.
 
It was and always will be a rich mans game as far as access to good animals. You can have a great hunt for for cull or smaller game animals, but you won't be hunting amongst Elephants and Rhinos for them on economical day rates.
 
There is a big difference in my opinion between a "discounted" and "cheap" hunt.
TMS discounting a cancelled or quota left hunt is in my opinion legit. I am mostly speaking about the South African situation.
Hank you are not hijacking at all, appreciate your input. I think it is a chicken and egg situation. I think the South African "Outfitter" is mainly responsible for this situation. I know I opened up a can of wip ass for myself with that statement.
I am a member on a number of boards and organisations, were we have a annual increase in complaints against HO that does not produce what they sell. Most of these complaints are legit. After going into the complain we find that the majority of them are these "cheap" hunts. That is were my question comes from.
 
What defines cheap or expensive?
To really know if these are "cheap" hunts i would need the data to support such a statement. What is you're profit margin?
If you are getting 40% profit on a hunt is that a fair return? is 20% profit a fair return?
Once the client is there on a hunt with the term "cheap" tied to it, how much pressure from the PH or outfitter is there to shoot one of them animals that has a 50% profit margin on it that isn't in the package to help offset the original cost of the hunt.
 
This has been beat to death already as what is cheap. I have done 3 hunts now that by the price would be thought of as cheap hunts by total price. I have taken animals equal to hunts that I seen go for double the amount. The food,lodging and ph's were equal to a hunt I have paid more per animal hunted.

I look at it like this all lower priced hunts don't equal cheap just like all hunts that cost more don't equal great hunts. Maybe you get nicer sheets on the bed and fancier food but we are not all looking for that as hunters.

I have said it before and it is true with everything being sold be it hunts or other service or items. The cost is controlled by the person selling and each maybe different on what they want to make or must make to stay in business. One place may want to charge 3000 for a kudu so he can make a profit of 1500 on that one animal. Others maybe happy selling a kudu for 2200 and making a 700 profit. Some think there services are worth 450 a day others 350 and so on. Depending on the business model used a hunt can end up being thousands of dollars different based on the profit margin someone works in.

I think some outfitters would like to hunt every day for less and stay busy making there money. Then others maybe like to do less hunters and charge more and offer what they think is better service per hunter. Just as there are different outfitters offering hunts there is different clients looking for different level of that service.

As for checking and finding that bad service normally ends with the problem coming from a cheaper hunt. It is just as likely the client caused some of the problem. Sometimes clients look for cheap but think they should be getting the same value as a guy paying double the cost. The lack of common sense is more then likely the cause of the problem. I think it is human nature to want the most for your money but asking for to much after going the cheapest way is not fair. Common sense being used will stop a lot of bad happening to you when booking a hunt.

I am sure this is a thread that will be going all over the place with whys and how's.

I think some must also remember what maybe cheap to them maybe a dream come true to some one else. What equals cheap to the guy who is making 200,000 a year is very costly to a guy making 40,000. You wont find many outfitters saying it but there is a reason must like to go after the guy making more. Then others are happy going after the working class guy making less.
 
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To all the hunting clients out there a question.

Is the quality of the Safari less important than the price?

Short answer: no, it's not.

However, over the years I have noticed that it has become somewhat common to purchase items (or services) of a lesser quality for a lesser price and think that one is getting a "bargain" because it looks the same. One only need look at Kmart, Walmart, the various "dollar" stores, and dental, medical, and auto services at department stores, etc. to see what I am talking about.
In my grandparents day, you saved to buy what it is you wanted......and you bought "quality", because you knew it would last. It seems that we've evolved into a people who will accept "less" of something in order to get it "right now", either because we are impatient or we want to best our friend ("I got it at a cheaper price than you") who bought a similar item. Whatever it is, it is usually of poor quality and doesn't last.....or work as well as it should if we would have paid a little more and waited in the long run.....but we buy it anyway. But we've have come to expect shoddiness as "the norm" anymore.
I will give you a personal example. As a kid, I loved to fish. I wanted a tackle box full of tackle, and I wanted it ASAP. So I would take my hard earned money from doing various chores and go to the local sporting goods stores. I would look at lures from Rapala, Eppinger, etc, and look at the prices, then go to Kmart and go to the Sporting goods section.....they had the exact same lures (or so I thought) for quite a bit less, so I filled my tackle box with knock offs from China that looked and worked the same. But as we know, they aren't the same....and I quickly had a tackle box full of rusty lures and hooks, bent hooks, broken hooks, faded/scratched paint jobs, etc. :( If I would have learned the quality of "patience", maybe I wouldn't have had to refill my tackle box several times over............

I think that the same holds true for sportsmen wanting to hunt Africa.....it's a dream for many, and we are told that "we can do it", and it is "affordable". I really didn't think I would EVER be able to hunt the dark continent, but doing some number crunching, and comparing it to other guided hunts here in the States, I took the plunge, and was glad I did. I must admit that cost WAS a factor, but I didn't go looking for the "cheapest" I could find, either. I spent 2 years researching, looking for negative comments on outfitters, etc. before I took the plunge and booked a hunt. I must say that I was not disappointed in any aspect of my hunt.
I think another factor is "the hidden cost" factor.......we've all heard horror stories of guys booking cheap hunts (in the States & Canada as well as Africa), where "unforseen costs" that were unknown (such as export permits, dip/pack, taxidermy costs, VAT, etc) drove the cost of the hunt up as much as double as what the poor sap was expecting to pay......and for those on a tight budget, that can be as devastating as a sledge hammer between the eyes! I think a lot of people look for the cheapest hunt they can find in anticipation of those "hidden" charges that will pop up that they are unaware of.

I think that the outfitters who advertise here do a pretty good job of defining what is included in the price of their hunts/packages & what is not, and the websites such as Africahunting do a pretty good job of helping folks "guesstimate" what other costs might be incurred and what they might be that are listed on outfitters websites (such as airfare, dip/pack, etc) . Also, word will quickly get around on the net if an outfitter isn't providing the services that they have advertised, and they won't be around for too long (but they can cause a LOT of misery in the meantime:()
Bottom line: Caveat Emptor! (Do your research, and do it diligently!).

Just MHO......others may vary.
 
For once Billc and I agree(n). This subject has been beaten to death and there are as many opnions on it as quills on a porcupine, all depends on what angle you manage to catch the porcupine at or approach the subject.

I think there is a big distinction between Outfitters that now again offer a cheap package and Outfitters who only offer cheap packages. The guy who now and then offers a cheap package may have surplus animals,has the foresight to realise that it takes money to run a operation and a empty lodge does not pay the bills. Understands that entry level hunters grow into repeat hunters and clients 80% of the time and could possibly spend more money with them later in life.
That being said, in general larger farm have bigger start-up cost and greater overheads,fancy lodges and 5 star meals don't come cheap.
I don't see these Outfitters offering you a cheap hunt that is any different in quality as far as service and trophy quality is concerned.
I also know that large sole concessions don't come cheap and often sole concessions deliver better quality trophies than open concessions of smaller size.
On the other side of the coin you have Outfitters who offer only cheap hunts and that could be problematic. Often not always the properties are smaller and no matter how big his open concession in SA is it will be hammered by more Outfitters than only him and soon trophy quality starts slipping. I have come across some cheap hunts were the Outfitter will not let the PH drive more than a set amount of km's per day, PH gets a diffrent "bottled" water, PH pays for his drinks,lunch boxes that were not opened on a day get sent out again tomorrow.
So as a client, you won't see the cost cutting, but it is there.
Can't see anything wrong with a few cheap hunts offered by a new Outfitt to get into the market either.

Yes profit margins will also dictate what can and cannot be offered, but bear in mind that when game prices escalate in SA like they did this year, the Outfitter that owns a property and has enough game will be the one sticking to his prices.

The edge of the coin are Outfitters who do not own a property or a concession and hunt on any property he has access to. His overheads are the lowest of all the other Outfitters and he can compete at lower prices. The down side is he may not always deliver the same quality trophies as land owner Outfitters as he cannot manage the places he hunts.

Sometimes I hunt cheap other times more expensive, the service I got was never better on the expensive hunts, the difference was in the quality of the areas and animals.

Your turn Billc:D
 
HHS, I tried to save money on bullets, instead I drove over the porcupine with my Landcruiser, now I am sitting with two flat tires.....I think you understand what I am getting at..
 
I tried to save money on a hunt but found that cheap hunts all had the same MO:

- fenced areas where they all explained to me that fences are no big deal and the area was trillions of hectares, etc.

-guaranteed trophy sized animals or your trophy fee money back

For me, I concluded these were set ups that didn't sit right and appear to be for the budget concerned. When I asked the budget outfitters about say Giraffe and they were quick to point out "sure, we have 23 of them" just like a stockist at a general store.

My conclusion: cheap hunts are very focused on getting maximum killing for minimum dollars. I've always paid more to achieve less because fair chase, hard work, preparation, luck and random chance set better with me. Killing is not the critical component of the hunt for me, the pursuit is, and it appears the less you spend the less reverence is applied to the process and more emphasis is applied to the "money shot".
 
It's called "Capitalism", "Supply and Demand" etc.. The hunting industry is like all others that utilize this system. Just stroll around SCI in Vegas to see what I mean. There are well off hunters that do not worry about the cost, just the reputation of the PH/Outfitter. There are mid-level hunters that look for the right PH/Outfitter that fits the country/price/animals that he's looking for. Then there is the budget hunter that looks to get to Africa at the lowest costs possible and still have the experience. Is one better than the other? Is one right and the others wrong? No to both. On the other hand, is one PH/Outfitter wrong for tailoring his business to the "well off" hunter by offering premium areas and game at a premium price? Is one PH/Outfitter wrong for going for volume of budget minded hunters by offering so called, "cheap" hunts? Again, the answer is no. This is the way it works in most successful economies around the world. Point being that there is room for all of these in the hunting market in Africa. The different clientele will migrate to what fits them the best.
 
It's called "Capitalism", "Supply and Demand" etc.. The hunting industry is like all others that utilize this system. Just stroll around SCI in Vegas to see what I mean. There are well off hunters that do not worry about the cost, just the reputation of the PH/Outfitter. There are mid-level hunters that look for the right PH/Outfitter that fits the country/price/animals that he's looking for. Then there is the budget hunter that looks to get to Africa at the lowest costs possible and still have the experience. Is one better than the other? Is one right and the others wrong? No to both. On the other hand, is one PH/Outfitter wrong for tailoring his business to the "well off" hunter by offering premium areas and game at a premium price? Is one PH/Outfitter wrong for going for volume of budget minded hunters by offering so called, "cheap" hunts? Again, the answer is no. This is the way it works in most successful economies around the world. Point being that there is room for all of these in the hunting market in Africa. The different clientele will migrate to what fits them the best.


Well said Adam Buff-Buster Smith!:)
 
Hunthard I am taking the for once billc and I agree and keeping my comments short. The factors you talked about go hand and hand with cost.

There is just a lot of things that can make the price of the hunt cheaper. If you ask the right question for what matter to you as a hunter your hunt should be ok. If you want 5 star meals and lodging make sure you ask for that. Don't think your paying a day fee of 250 a day and going to get 5 star food and lodging. Anyone going thinking other wise is dreaming and misleading themselves.Some stuff may not be the same and if you ask the right question that all comes out.

I will agree bigger places cost more to run but quality is not always different just because of size of a place. If it is a high fence place I don't care if it is 5,000 acres or 25,000 acres I would think he outfitter would know how many giraffe he has. You ask him that same question on kudu he is guessing a number at best to tell a hunter. A good outfitter manages his land if it is a small place or large place. Knowing game numbers is part of that and has nothing to do with if it is hunting or just killing. Now of coarse you hunt wild areas like moz,zim numbers will be much hard to get as game is not fenced and not the same kind of hunt.

I would not price out a hunt in SA the same as I would in Zim and for many good reason. I myself don't look at the two kinds of hunts the same though. Sa right now is more a buyers market then the other places of Africa.
 
...............
My question.

Is the quality of the Safari less important than the price?

Price will always grab someones attention. It will also make me nervous, on both ends of the spectrum.




Here are three Bushbuck advertised under the Eastern Cape variety. (The prices are real and NOT Typos) All images are decent average Bushbuck.
Which one is better?



#1 $650.00
bushbuck 650.jpg






#2 $1250.00
bushbuck 1232 .jpg






#3 $83.00
maxresdefault.jpg




Number three makes me nervous.
Number 2 is double the market price that I have seen generally advertised for an EC Bushbuck and #1 is in the market.
Now, I would sure be moving on to look at other factors. Who, where, etc. Is this lower fee made up in day rates? Put and take area? etc.
Is it a 7-11 loss leader and all the other game fees are three times the going rate?
I think the uninformed guy may just go for #3 and find out that he is on a Boma hunt with a lunatic. Then complain after the fact.


Quality is ethereal and hard to relate to other people. (I feel for you)

In any market how do you convey Quality?
I have the best lodge
I have the best concession; size, fencing, animals
I have the best PH
I have the best payment options
I have the best travel arrangements
I have the best animals
I have the biggest/best trophies
I have the shortest drive from the airport
 
Billc, the key word being managed;) All things being equal a Outfitter with 5000 acres cannot hunt the same quantity of quality trophies year for year as one with 25 0000 acres unless he puts and takes. He will also not be able to sustain breeding herds large enough to deliver the trophy numbers.

With the game breeding industry in SA at the moment even common species like Blue Wildebeest,Blesbuck and Springbuck are becoming more expensive. The consession owners are getting better prices on auction than from Outfitters so I see cheap hunting dying a slow death as the prices keep going up.
Maybe a good thing for the whole industry?
 

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