CEB reduced recoil loads for plains game

NTX

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Ok brain trust, here it is. I need to come up with a load capable of effectively dispatching a zebra or gemsbok that my very petite wife can shoot. She is not recoil shy, but she gets nervous when shooting at live game and I want to minimize potential problems. I have two rifles I’m working with. First is a ruger hawkeye compact in .300 rcm. Second is a Winchester 70 .300 wsm with a featherweight stock I’m considering having cut and fitted (she really wants this rifle). Right now I’m looking at the CEB ER Raptor in 150 gr. Both rifles are 1:10. The ruger will send 150 gr pills well north of 3,000 fps and the WSM obviously significantly faster. Magazine lengths are 2.95 and 3.0, respectively. Can anyone chime in on potential effectiveness of this bullet on large game? Target FPS to be most effective?
 

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180 gr CEB Maximus went broadside through an eland. MV 2950 fps and the animal was about 120 yards from me I believe. I am sorry I haven't used the Raptor on game. But from everything I have read the 150gr CEB bullets will be fine for what you describe.

For whatever its worth, I settled on the Maximus because of it's advertised ability to make a larger wound channel the entire length. It's doesn't just send fragments at one end of it's journey and then punch through, if you know what I mean.
 

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Has she shot the 300WSM with any loads? It's not known to be a light recoiling cartridge in any configuration.
 

NTX

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MIght be worth getting her a 6.5CM for the game you have in mind. Mild recoil and still potent with the right bullets and placement.
I don’t need to go that soft. I should probably rephrase my question, as I was afraid the discussion would derail accordingly. I’m not looking for a light recoiling round, I’m just trying to ease up on one of the rifles she wants to shoot. She CAN shoot them both, but there is a price to pay at her size. I’m intrigued by the CEB bullets and I thought the lighter bullets may ease the beating some while being totally effective.
 

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I don’t need to go that soft. I should probably rephrase my question, as I was afraid the discussion would derail accordingly. I’m not looking for a light recoiling round, I’m just trying to ease up on one of the rifles she wants to shoot. She CAN shoot them both, but there is a price to pay at her size. I’m intrigued by the CEB bullets and I thought the lighter bullets may ease the beating some while being totally effective.
Not sure if you’ve talked to CEB at all, but I’ve been thinking about trying 130gr on a 300H&H. They seem to advocate speed over weight. But I don’t want to open that can of worms.
 

NTX

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180 gr CEB Maximus went broadside through an eland. MV 2950 fps and the animal was about 120 yards from me I believe. I am sorry I haven't used the Raptor on game. But from everything I have read the 150gr CEB bullets will be fine for what you describe.

For whatever its worth, I settled on the Maximus because of it's advertised ability to make a larger wound channel the entire length. It's doesn't just send fragments at one end of it's journey and then punch through, if you know what I mean.
I was interested in the Maximus myself as it looks a lot more like the BCs I’m used to. I’m considering it in the .375 as well, but that’s a discussion for a different day. Thanks for the input, that helps ease my mind some.
 

NTX

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Not sure if you’ve talked to CEB at all, but I’ve been thinking about trying 130gr on a 300H&H. They seem to advocate speed over weight. But I don’t want to open that can of worms.
I’ve heard the same thing, I figured 150 was already light but you may be on to something there. I’m planning to email them when I narrow things down, but I figured I’d see who has actually shot tough game with small CEB bullets first.
 

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I’ve heard the same thing, I figured 150 was already light but you may be on to something there. I’m planning to email them when I narrow things down, but I figured I’d see who has actually shot tough game with small CEB bullets first.
I’m hoping to try 175gr on deer moose or elk this year out of a 8x68s. But that’s to come. The shank is going to penetrate through, so the goal is as much destruction with the blades. I think velocity is the important factor in that
 

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I don’t need to go that soft. I should probably rephrase my question, as I was afraid the discussion would derail accordingly. I’m not looking for a light recoiling round, I’m just trying to ease up on one of the rifles she wants to shoot. She CAN shoot them both, but there is a price to pay at her size. I’m intrigued by the CEB bullets and I thought the lighter bullets may ease the beating some while being totally effective.

This is a great thread for @michael458 to give input on. I do believe he prefers the flat base version of the Raptor to the ER version. I think it's due to easier development of an accurate load.

And I believe you're on the right track to going no more than 150gr in weight. These bullets are long being all brass. If it were me and I was trying to ease up on the recoil a bit, I think I'd target a load at no more than 3000fps or slower until accuracy starts to drop off.
 

michael458

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This is a great thread for @michael458 to give input on.
Not sure if you’ve talked to CEB at all, but I’ve been thinking about trying 130gr on a 300H&H.
I believe if it were me I would look at the 130 Raptor. While I have not used the 130s I know these bullets pretty well. Here for all our .308 caliber requirements we use the 100 Flat Base Raptor, in 300 BLK, 7.62X40, 308 Winchester and even 300 Winchester. I do have one load for the 130 FB Raptors in 300 Winchester, but it has not been used in the field. The 100 FB Raptor has been used extensively in 300 BLK and 308 Winchester on literally 100s of deer, hogs and even black bear, with 100% stellar success. Not long ago a fellow was looking for recommendations for elk and 300 Winchester, I recommended the 130 at that time. I would do so for Zebra and lesser plains game as well. Penetration will not be an issue with the 130s.

Testing here with mostly the 100 FB Raptor they out penetrate all but the 200 Swift A Frames in 300 Winchester, and equal to most all super premium 165-180s, such as Barnes TSX....... I have not tested the 130s simply because I have no personal reason to do so, whatever I might do with .308 caliber can be done with the 100 gr easy and beyond.

Do not make the mistake of trying to compare these type bullets to any conventional expanding bullets, they do not compare, they do not behave the same, and they work far differently to achieve trauma and penetration. You cannot compare a 130-150 gr Raptor to any conventional expanding trauma inflicting bullet of similar or even heavier weight. I have no doubt whatsoever that the 130s will do more in every aspect than 180-200 grain super premium conventional bullets.

Velocity with Raptors means more of everything, more trauma, and deeper penetration, there is NO upper end to this type bullet.
For whatever its worth, I settled on the Maximus because of it's advertised ability to make a larger wound channel the entire length
This is pretty much true for the Copper Maximus to some extent anyway. The way the Maximus works, and most other Copper CNC bullets, they have what we call true "Petals", these petals shear at different depths of penetration as the main bullet penetrates. These petals peel back, break off, and do lots of damage along the main wound channel. While they are devastating, they do come in Second when comparing trauma with a Raptor. Don't get me wrong, I have used this type bullet extensively in the field, and they are extremely effective, far more effective than lesser conventional super premiums in both trauma and penetration, but they ain't Raptors.....

Raptors have blades, not petals. Being brass, those blades shear all at the same moment in penetration, which will be 1.5-2 inches once inside medium or animal tissue, or other aqueous material. At that moment, I can only compare it to a mini explosion of sorts, and for the next 3-5 inches of penetration those blades slice and dice tissues working very close to the center bullet, which continues its straight line penetration similar to a full wadcutter flat nose solid, really more like a broken sharp edge solid. These blades slice their way through tissue, not push, not blunt trauma, they slice. As penetration increases, the blades are working away from center, and after 3-5 inches of penetration the larger caliber blades become secondary slice and dice projectiles, slicing arteries, organs, and all tissue they come in contact with. Smaller calibers, such as .308 and less, the blades cannot get as far from center as the larger caliber blades, such as 416-458 and plus. None the less, they are devastating beyond what you have ever seen before.

The common saying for shooters/hunters that have never used them is "I have never seen anything like that"........ We laugh when we hear it, because that is what we said too..... LOL

Hope that helps you understand how things work......
Michael
 

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I believe if it were me I would look at the 130 Raptor. While I have not used the 130s I know these bullets pretty well. Here for all our .308 caliber requirements we use the 100 Flat Base Raptor, in 300 BLK, 7.62X40, 308 Winchester and even 300 Winchester. I do have one load for the 130 FB Raptors in 300 Winchester, but it has not been used in the field. The 100 FB Raptor has been used extensively in 300 BLK and 308 Winchester on literally 100s of deer, hogs and even black bear, with 100% stellar success. Not long ago a fellow was looking for recommendations for elk and 300 Winchester, I recommended the 130 at that time. I would do so for Zebra and lesser plains game as well. Penetration will not be an issue with the 130s.

Testing here with mostly the 100 FB Raptor they out penetrate all but the 200 Swift A Frames in 300 Winchester, and equal to most all super premium 165-180s, such as Barnes TSX....... I have not tested the 130s simply because I have no personal reason to do so, whatever I might do with .308 caliber can be done with the 100 gr easy and beyond.

Do not make the mistake of trying to compare these type bullets to any conventional expanding bullets, they do not compare, they do not behave the same, and they work far differently to achieve trauma and penetration. You cannot compare a 130-150 gr Raptor to any conventional expanding trauma inflicting bullet of similar or even heavier weight. I have no doubt whatsoever that the 130s will do more in every aspect than 180-200 grain super premium conventional bullets.

Velocity with Raptors means more of everything, more trauma, and deeper penetration, there is NO upper end to this type bullet.

This is pretty much true for the Copper Maximus to some extent anyway. The way the Maximus works, and most other Copper CNC bullets, they have what we call true "Petals", these petals shear at different depths of penetration as the main bullet penetrates. These petals peel back, break off, and do lots of damage along the main wound channel. While they are devastating, they do come in Second when comparing trauma with a Raptor. Don't get me wrong, I have used this type bullet extensively in the field, and they are extremely effective, far more effective than lesser conventional super premiums in both trauma and penetration, but they ain't Raptors.....

Raptors have blades, not petals. Being brass, those blades shear all at the same moment in penetration, which will be 1.5-2 inches once inside medium or animal tissue, or other aqueous material. At that moment, I can only compare it to a mini explosion of sorts, and for the next 3-5 inches of penetration those blades slice and dice tissues working very close to the center bullet, which continues its straight line penetration similar to a full wadcutter flat nose solid, really more like a broken sharp edge solid. These blades slice their way through tissue, not push, not blunt trauma, they slice. As penetration increases, the blades are working away from center, and after 3-5 inches of penetration the larger caliber blades become secondary slice and dice projectiles, slicing arteries, organs, and all tissue they come in contact with. Smaller calibers, such as .308 and less, the blades cannot get as far from center as the larger caliber blades, such as 416-458 and plus. None the less, they are devastating beyond what you have ever seen before.

The common saying for shooters/hunters that have never used them is "I have never seen anything like that"........ We laugh when we hear it, because that is what we said too..... LOL

Hope that helps you understand how things work......
Michael

How did these do for you as far as copper fouling since they appear to have minimal or no bands like the Barnes?
 

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I don’t need to go that soft. I should probably rephrase my question, as I was afraid the discussion would derail accordingly. I’m not looking for a light recoiling round, I’m just trying to ease up on one of the rifles she wants to shoot. She CAN shoot them both, but there is a price to pay at her size. I’m intrigued by the CEB bullets and I thought the lighter bullets may ease the beating some while being totally effective.
Don't think that is a derail, you are asking about something that is soft recoiling. You never answered the question has she shot either rifle?
 

NTX

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Don't think that is a derail, you are asking about something that is soft recoiling. You never answered the question has she shot either rifle?
Yes she has. And more importantly those are the rifles she wants to use, which is how I arrived here. I’m not trying to discount anyones opinions, as they are valid and appreciated, just trying to get good info on CEB’s of lighter weight. Thanks for the responses. I’ll probably load up some 130 gr in the Ruger and see how that goes. Recoil should be less than a typical 06 with that load.
 

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I don’t need to go that soft. I should probably rephrase my question, as I was afraid the discussion would derail accordingly. I’m not looking for a light recoiling round, I’m just trying to ease up on one of the rifles she wants to shoot. She CAN shoot them both, but there is a price to pay at her size. I’m intrigued by the CEB bullets and I thought the lighter bullets may ease the beating some while being totally effective.
@NTX
Barnes makes a dandy little 130gr ttsx that would reduce recoil even further and should still do the job you want.
 

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Yes she has. And more importantly those are the rifles she wants to use, which is how I arrived here. I’m not trying to discount anyones opinions, as they are valid and appreciated, just trying to get good info on CEB’s of lighter weight. Thanks for the responses. I’ll probably load up some 130 gr in the Ruger and see how that goes. Recoil should be less than a typical 06 with that load.
How much does the rifle weigh? The easy way to look at recoil is to use a recoil calculator. It will at least give you an idea of the direction you are going.

I'm not sure the other part of your question was answered. Yes, if you can get the stock to fit her better it will make a difference. Not sure about aftermarket stocks to keep the original stock in tack. Not sure if you could add a kick stop to it or not? Might be an option to help.
 

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How did these do for you as far as copper fouling since they appear to have minimal or no bands like the Barnes?
Since they are brass there is no copper fouling........ But, at some point brass deposits in the barrel can be an issue I learned........ I have a 500 MDM that serves as a test gun for all .500 caliber bullets, all 500 MDM load data, and it literally had 1000s on top of 1000s of rounds fired, never worried about cleaning, I am not much for cleaning firearms, other than for function. And in particular big bore rifles, I never find a reason to clean barrels. Well I went to do some test work one day with the 500 and all rounds fired, the bullets were sideways at 25 yards......:unsure:

OK, I figured I had finally actually just worn a barrel slap out. No, I did not hesitate, I put in in a box and sent the damn thing to Brian at SSK. Told him the problem, and I had probably shot the damn barrel smooth.... remember, literally 1000s of rounds...... Told him to replace it with a 18-19 inch barrel, this gun was the second rifle built, and still had a 21 inch barrel on it. Way too long, but it was a test gun.

Couple of weeks went by, rifle came back. Oh great, opened up, same old 21 inch barrel????? WTF? Spoke with Brian, said he just cleaned it, was FULL OF BRASS....... try it out. So I went to the range and yes, it shot fine, no more sidways bullet strikes, zero issues, no problems..........

So yes, they might need some cleaning on occasion............ But not by me! Not in my job description, either throw the damn things in the trash, or send them somewhere to be cleaned. And NO, I have not cleaned any of them still, and have zero plans to do so, and when they start shooting sideways at 25 yards, then I will send them to Brian........... But it may be many 1000s of rounds before that is required........

Now I suppose small bores like .308 might need cleaning more? I don't know, I have 300 BLK, 7.62X40, 308 Winchester and 300 Winchester Test guns, I have never cleaned them, and they still shoot straight?????

I bought my wife a nice Winchester M70 FW 308 many years ago. The barrel was crap on it. After 20-25 rounds it went to crap. Cleaned it, took 5 rounds to shoot back in. Then after 20 or so, it was crap again. Sent it to Brian and we put a really nice NEW 20 inch barrel on it, no more issues. This was back in the day and was all copper or jacketed bullets. I just have zero tolerance for junk like that. Trash can..........
 

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