Captive Bred Lions To Put End To Debate

[rinehart0050]

Why would this be a big step? What unknown fact is being proven here?

As others have said, it's pretty well known that cats can hunt instinctively and return to the wild given the chance.

Perhaps I'm being dense and missing something, but I just don't see what is being proven here that isn't already known.

I think this all goes back to the USFWS banning lion imports, stating nations "will only receive permits to import sport hunted lion trophies if USFWS receives sufficient evidence of the long term benefits to their wild lion populations."

Here's the post about allowing import of wild lions from RSA, but not CBL:
https://www.africahunting.com/threa...ion-of-lion-trophies-from-south-africa.31735/

I suspect that SAPA is trying to show that 1. captive breed lions can be released and thrive in the wild, 2. by doing so, you can enhance wild populations or reintroduce populations to an area.

By showing a tangible benefit to wild populations, I think SAPA hopes to get USFWS to lift that ban on CBL, or reconsider it. After all, when does the CBL become a wild lion? Is there a certain amount of time after release? Is it never? Can a CBL's offspring, born in the wild, be considered wild?

I think USFWS's plan is to be nonspecific and noncommittal on everything, leaving all the hard work of proving/justifying things to Africans. Then USFWS can say yay/nay depending on public opinion or whatever "metrics" they use to make decisions with minimal risk of backlash.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

I think USFWS's plan is to be nonspecific and noncommittal on everything, leaving all the hard work of proving/justifying things to Africans. Then USFWS can say yay/nay depending on public opinion or whatever "metrics" they use to make decisions with minimal risk of backlash.

Bingo!

 

[Royal27]

I suspect that SAPA is trying to show that 1. captive breed lions can be released and thrive in the wild, 2. by doing so, you can enhance wild populations or reintroduce populations to an area.

By showing a tangible benefit to wild populations, I think SAPA hopes to get USFWS to lift that ban on CBL, or reconsider it. After all, when does the CBL become a wild lion? Is there a certain amount of time after release? Is it never? Can a CBL's offspring, born in the wild, be considered wild?

This is my question though. What's the end game of this experiment? To me showing you can raise and release means nothing (especially since it has already been repeatedly proven, but ok....), but I will assume that they do this. What then?

Where are they going to release the Lions? Who wants the CBLs for a wild area? BVC can't seem to give away wild lions to new areas....

After all, when does the CBL become a wild lion? Is there a certain amount of time after release? Is it never? Can a CBL's offspring, born in the wild, be considered wild?

This is really my point. This "end to the debate " seems to only have questions attached, not really any answers.

I think USFWS's plan is to be nonspecific and noncommittal on everything, leaving all the hard work of proving/justifying things to Africans.

Agree. This also IMO shows why it's so important to police yourself as a group or organization. If you don't someone else just might. And it might just end up worse than it would have.

I think there is a lot of guys kidding themselves about what will happen once the raised lion bones stop hitting the market. Where there is a market they will find away to get what they want. So instead of just seeing pictures of rhino and ele rotting away from being poached we will get to see lions rotting or there numbers just slowly disappear.

If there is a conservation benefit to CBL I think this is likely it, supplying the bone market and giving one less reason to poach.

Does anyone know what the price of lion bone had done since last Jan? Probably too short a time for supply to have dwindled at all (but will be interesting to watch over time). If overall CBL goes down and prices go up....

 

[billc]

lets just hope the new president cleans house at the usfws and some of the stupid rules go away

 

[rinehart0050]

This is my question though. What's the end game of this experiment? To me showing you can raise and release means nothing (especially since it has already been repeatedly proven, but ok....), but I will assume that they do this. What then?

Your question is spot on and gets to the heart of the lion debate.

I believe the real reason that lion populations are in decline is due to loss of habitat, not hunting. With that in mind, you're right- who wants these lions if there is no space for them?

The large parks and nature conservancies may want some- but probably not. I'm guessing most of them already have enough for their land and don't want to exceed the carrying capacity as that would negatively impact other species.

So then you're looking at land that is not protected, but still wild. Releasing more lions here won't help either because the current numbers are being reduced due to human encroachment. If you add more lions, you just have more lions for the farmers to kill to protect their livestock.

With the really wild areas not wanting or needing more lions, that leaves hunting concessions. They're not going to want lions on their land unless those lions are huntable. If their not huntable, then their just a threat to the other animals that are huntable. This brings us back full circle- when is a CBL no longer a CBL, but a wild lion (and thus a huntable lion and a lion with monetary value- worth preserving)? I doubt that USFWS will commit at any point to when this "transition" occurs, to the detriment of these lions. How's that for a slogan- if you don't allow the hunting and importation of CBLs, then all CBLs will die out due to lack of habitat/financial incentive to keep them alive." Thousands would die, I'd imagine.

Personally, I think USFWS and the antis are playing a game of semantics. I see animals as wild or domesticated. Certain species can be domesticated- dogs, cattle, horses (but not zebras), etc etc. All other animals are wild. Wild animals can be kept in captivity, but can never really be domesticated. Wild animals, even if born and raised in captivity, will revert to their wild instincts if released. In my opinion, a lion is a wild animal and he was wild when in a cage, he is wild 5 minutes after release, and he is wild 9 years later when he dies of old age. I would consider him "not wild" if after being released, he no longer knows how to hunt and promptly dies of starvation after a few days.

The RSA CBL industry got themselves into this mess with their bad, unethical practices. It opened up the opportunity to play these semantics games and then the Cecil effect, negative publicity from Blood Lions and other documentaries, etc. just added to the issue. I know SAPA and others are trying to dig their way out of the hole their in. I wish them luck because I think they offer an amazing hunting opportunity for an amazing animal.

 

[Royal27]

The RSA CBL industry got themselves into this mess with their bad, unethical practices. It opened up the opportunity to play these semantics games and then the Cecil effect, negative publicity from Blood Lions and other documentaries, etc. just added to the issue.

THIS

It's why I don't buy into the "if it's legal we have to support it" argument.

 

[Philip Glass]

Folks the point in all of this is that animals are private property and have always been. Now the do gooders of all stripes, some on this forum, want to tell people what to do with their OWNED animals. Private property is why we have great hunting in TX and RSA and thus private property is the only reason AH exists. Remember fundamental foundations of where we all come from when confrontented with any controversy. Yes lions elicit emotions and derail even us hunters. It should not be so.

Regards,
Philip

 

[hansv]

Ok so a couple of lions have been released....and there is a big fuss been made about it. my question is why has it taken so long for sapa to start showing a glimmer of potential for these lions...we are 25 years down the road, during which time who knows how many thousands of cbl have been shot for cash only. I bet the amount of money made from this practice will cause your knees to tremble.... and this is what is shown for it after all this time....a couple lions been released! Not long ago SAPA barely had a website, they had no real plans to enhance lion conservation & now that theyre feeling the heat from the inside and from people on the outside they are desparate to find ways to legitimize CBL breeding and hunting. Lets start making a fuss when we start seeing a real contribution to lion conservation. I assure you there is still much to debate and a huge amount of room for improvement from every point of view in this sector of the industry. Ive said it before, there must be a problem if hunters, conservation NGOs, Hunting associations (in Africa and abroad) as well as provincial wildlife departments (in South Africa) who all support and believe in hunting are weary of supporting a sector within the hunting industry. It raises questions which are not easily answered.

 

[billc]

You are correct they should have done something early. But what business does stuff that cost them money before they need to. Plus sapa is a group not the one who was making all the money on the lions being hunted. So if the outfitters doing the hunts give money already then there already have been putting money back in to conservation.

Lets not kid ourselves and act like everyone would be spending the same money to help wildlife if they were not making money on it through hunting on all animals.

 

[Royal27]

But what business does stuff that cost them money before they need to.

None.

But successful businesses don't wait until AFTER its needed to plan and spend the money, especially when it's so obvious it's coming.

And, they have a clear plan of what they are trying to accomplish with the money spent and how that will improve margins.

The industry got caught flat footed when it shouldn't have and is now paying the price.

I assure you there is still much to debate and a huge amount of room for improvement from every point of view in this sector of the industry. Ive said it before, there must be a problem if hunters, conservation NGOs, Hunting associations (in Africa and abroad) as well as provincial wildlife departments (in South Africa) who all support and believe in hunting are weary of supporting a sector within the hunting industry. It raises questions which are not easily answered.

Well said.

 

[billc]

None.

But successful businesses don't wait until AFTER its needed to plan and spend the money, especially when it's so obvious it's coming.

And, they have a clear plan of what they are trying to accomplish with the money spent and how that will improve margins.

The industry got caught flat footed when it shouldn't have and is now paying the price.



Well said.

The cecil the lion caught everyone off guard and happened so fast no one could have been ahead of that mess. I think as you can see the ele ban and the stuff coming with leopard caught everyone with there pants down if they want to be honest. Trying to push all the problems on raised lions is bs and not the end goal for the anti's

 

[Royal27]

The cecil the lion caught everyone off guard and happened so fast no one could have been ahead of that mess.

Uhm.... No.... The cry of "you'd better shoot your lion now while you still can" goes back to way before the Cecil event. So unless anyone believes it was just a marketing ploy by the industry, then the industry knew it was coming, and failed to react.

 

[edward]

Ok so a couple of lions have been released....and there is a big fuss been made about it. my question is why has it taken so long for sapa to start showing a glimmer of potential for these lions...we are 25 years down the road, during which time who knows how many thousands of cbl have been shot for cash only. I bet the amount of money made from this practice will cause your knees to tremble.... and this is what is shown for it after all this time....a couple lions been released! Not long ago SAPA barely had a website, they had no real plans to enhance lion conservation & now that theyre feeling the heat from the inside and from people on the outside they are desparate to find ways to legitimize CBL breeding and hunting. Lets start making a fuss when we start seeing a real contribution to lion conservation. I assure you there is still much to debate and a huge amount of room for improvement from every point of view in this sector of the industry. Ive said it before, there must be a problem if hunters, conservation NGOs, Hunting associations (in Africa and abroad) as well as provincial wildlife departments (in South Africa) who all support and believe in hunting are weary of supporting a sector within the hunting industry. It raises questions which are not easily answered.

if this has been a problem for 25 years why cry foul now?

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Uhm.... No.... The cry of "you'd better shoot your lion now while you still can" goes back to way before the Cecil event. So unless anyone believes it was just a marketing ploy by the industry, then the industry knew it was coming, and failed to react.

If by industry, you mean the operators who have/are conducting captive bred lion hunts, then I would have to disagree with the "the industry knew it was coming, and failed to react."

If by industry you mean the safari industry as a whole to include all outfitters, DSC, SCI and whoever else is associated with hunting in Africa, then I wholeheartedly agree.

 

[Royal27]

If by industry you mean the safari industry as a whole to include all outfitters, DSC, SCI and whoever else is associated with hunting in Africa, then I wholeheartedly agree.

We agree

 

[siml]

How many game farms actually want lions to be released onto their properties? Don't think many would want lions feeding on their expensive game.....

 

[BRICKBURN]

................ But what business does stuff that cost them money before they need to. ................

True Leaders actually.

If the sole motive for all of this is individual profit then you will get the resultant reaction from regulators/et al. and the community at large. Laws, regulations, bans.

 

[rinehart0050]

True Leaders actually.

If the sole motive for all of this is individual profit then you will get the resultant reaction from regulators/et al. and the community at large. Laws, regulations, bans.

Spot on @BRICKBURN. I think that's part of where SAPA hamstrung themselves. As a contrast, look at Namibia. They're being proactive in implementing effective conservation methods built around hunting. I think its pretty difficult for anyone to question the success and ethics of their methods. Had SAPA (and lion breeders in general) done more to self-regulate instead of just focusing on the profits, these issues may have been avoidable or at least less severe.

 

[billc]

Just remember sapa is a group just like Phasa. They had no more power to stop bad outfits then phasa has to stop people who are not phasa members from selling hunts. Most on here are just guessing on what sapa may have done or tried to do.

A few people just made sure this problem was brought out for all to see but sad to say just like any other business. There is scumbags who flock to were money can be made. Most problems do not get fixed before they show themselves. It should of been handled better and fixed but this is not the first business that is taking longer then we all like to correct itself.