Captive-bred Lion and PHASA?

Patrick R

AH fanatic
Joined
Aug 18, 2009
Messages
792
Reaction score
143
Location
Rustenburg, North West Province
Media
38
Articles
1
Hunting reports
Africa
4
Hunted
Botswana, Namibia, Zimbabwe, South Africa
Some clarity if someone knows?

1. This probably mean all Lion in RSA?
2. If so as above, this will mean 90-98% of PH's and Outfitters hunting Lion in RSA is going to be disciplined? or / and expel as members of PHASA?
3. Will mean loosing members then?

perhaps I translate it wrongly! please comment on this to clarify!



7 December 2015

POSITION PAPER ON CAPTIVE-BRED LION HUNTING

This position paper replaces any previous versions

PHASA has reversed its 2013 position on the hunting of captive-bred lions and will no longer tolerate this form of hunting. This decision was taken at the association’s 2015 annual general meeting (AGM), where the majority of PHASA members voted to take a stand against the practice.

The official resolution adopted reads as follows:
PHASA distances itself from all captive-bred lion breeding and hunting until such time as the South African Predator Association can convince PHASA and the International Union for Conservation of Nature that captive-bred lion hunting is beneficial to lion conservation.

The above decision is effective immediately and is binding on all PHASA members. If any evidence arises implicating a PHASA member as having participated in the hunting or marketing of a captive-bred lion, such member will be subjected to PHASA’s internal disciplinary process, which will include expulsion if found guilty.

We are happy to field queries and can be reached by email at ceo@phasa.co.za or telephonically on +27 12 667 2048.

Stan Burger
President
 

CAustin

Bronze supporter
AH ambassador
Joined
May 7, 2013
Messages
14,465
Reaction score
11,788
Media
258
Hunting reports
Africa
7
Member of
Courtney Hunting Club, NRA Life Member, SCI Kansas City Chapter
Hunted
South Africa, KwaZulu Natal, Kalahari, Northwest, Limpopo, Gauteng, APNR Kruger Area. USA Georgia, South Carolina, Arkansas, New Mexico, North Carolina and Texas
Good question!
 

billc

AH legend
Joined
Feb 10, 2011
Messages
3,647
Reaction score
4,157
Location
Pa.
Media
97
Hunting reports
Africa
8
USA/Canada
3
Hunted
united state- Co Nm Mt Wy Pa , canada ,mexico ,south africa- Northwest, Limpopo, freestste.Northern cape,East cape, namibia
The only thing that is going to save phasa from looking stupid with members dropping out is the lion ban. Must guys would hunt raised lion still and not even worry about a thing. They will think they set a rule up and members did what they wanted but truth be told it is the ban and us clients from the states not being able to bring the raised lions back after that jan 22 or 23 date.
I would bet they would have lost a 1/4 to a 1/3 of its member if not for the ban. If SA figures out a way to work with usfw and still let raised lions be hunted they will lose people for sure.
 

johnnyblues

AH ambassador
Joined
Jun 13, 2013
Messages
6,884
Reaction score
7,366
Location
Georgia
Media
193
Articles
1
Hunting reports
Africa
11
Mex/S.Amer
1
Hunted
USA, ALASKA Canada, New Zealand, Mexico Africa.
Complicated issue compounded by emotion from antis and within our own ranks. Hunters need to stick together, no matter how you feel about hunting methods. Divide and conquer it seems to me is part of the anti hunting agenda. I feel now more than ever sportsman and gun owners are under intense pressure. We cannot allow liberal people in this country to infringe on our rights to enjoy what we love. We need a voice as powerful as Donald a Trump, as crafty as Hillary, and as strong as our numbers.
 

Patrick R

AH fanatic
Joined
Aug 18, 2009
Messages
792
Reaction score
143
Location
Rustenburg, North West Province
Media
38
Articles
1
Hunting reports
Africa
4
Hunted
Botswana, Namibia, Zimbabwe, South Africa
:A Stirring:

I only can imagine the chaos... 3 Months back PHASA backed us up on the Lion hunts, saying if it is legal it may be hunted...now, a different statement..sounds like a double standard...
 

enysse

AH ambassador
Joined
Jan 20, 2009
Messages
11,762
Reaction score
4,348
Media
136
Hunting reports
Africa
8
USA/Canada
1
Member of
Northeast Wisconsin SCI chapter, Lifetime member of NRA,RMEF
Hunted
Namibia, South Africa (East Cape, Guateng and Limpopo)
Maybe Africa should have cleaned the captive lion industry up years ago..........but a majority didn't want to do anything. Now thanks to Cecil the lion, there will be a new reshaping of the industry and probably a whole lot less killing of lions by hunters.
 

Bsto270

AH enthusiast
Joined
Oct 8, 2015
Messages
323
Reaction score
347
Location
Pennsylvania, USA
Media
9
Hunting reports
Africa
2
I'm wondering what is going to become of a ton of captive raised lions. Do outfitters try to sell them fast and cheap ASAP before the date comes in (albeit to local hunters or those from countries that will still allow import)? Or do they simply euthanize and get what they can from meat/hides/etc? Regardless of how one feels about the issue, it seems like this is setting up a financial fall for some and at worse case scenario a mass killing of the same animals so many anti's set out to "save", as it's not like they are going to be set loose into the wild (where they would likely be poached or cause havoc). I am not sure I would have wanted to hunt a captive bred lion, but I do not begrudge anyone the right.
 

AfricaHunting.com

Founder
AH ambassador
Joined
Oct 1, 2007
Messages
11,364
Reaction score
5,876
Website
AfricaHunting.com
Media
5,580
Articles
320
Below is an exert from Bones of Contention: An assessment of the South African trade in African Lion bones (see full document as an attached pdf file).

VALUE OF THE LION BONE TRADE
The value of a Lion skeleton is determined by the completeness of the “set” (i.e. whether the skull and/or limb bones are included, and accordingly a premium is paid to sellers if these bones are included) and where (and what country) the skeletons are in the supply chain. There are at least two tiers to the South African end of the Lion bone trade chain to consider when determining the value of the bones: (1) the price paid to landowners for skeletons by the bone agents, and (2) the price paid to the bone agents/wildlife traders/intermediaries by the Asian importers. One must be cautious when evaluating the South African side of the supply chain not to use erroneously the same US dollar prices that are reportedly paid for Lion parts and products once they enter the supply chain in Asia. The price being paid to South African farmers/landowners by the bone agents in 2013 was ZAR12 000 to ZAR15 000 (USD1260 to USD1560) per set without skulls, and up to ZAR18 000 to ZAR20 000 (USD1890 to USD2100) with skulls (depending on the size of the skeleton).

x Bones of Contention: An assessment of the South African trade in African Lion bones

Thereafter, the bone agents charge the importers a fee of about ZAR3000 (USD315) per set. Thus, the prices paid to South African landowners are substantially less than USD10 000 to USD15 000 per complete set that is frequently alleged to be paid. Ascribing such erroneously high values on the South African side of the supply chain would make it seem plausible that poaching wild Lions would be a cheaper alternative to sourcing bones from hunted captive animals and thereby incentivize illegal hunting – which is not the case in South Africa.

The value of Lion bones generated as a secondary by-product of the trophy hunting industry have allegedly motivated farmers to exhume carcasses that were discarded after past trophy hunts and captive mortalities. And, whereas Lionesses formerly had little or no value to breeders from a trophy hunter’s perspective, the emergence of the Lion bone trade has generated a previously unexploited value for females. A concern raised during the research was the incentive to breed Lions solely for the Lion bone trade. What the representatives from SAPBA, the various provinces and DEA are firm on is this: there is currently no economic incentive to farm Lions solely for bones, especially given the costs involved in raising Lions and the current prices paid for skeletons. Since a skeleton was worth, at most, ZAR20 000 (USD2100) in 2013 and a trophy hunted male Lion of at least six years old generates ZAR160 000 to ZAR170 000 (USD16 800– USD17 900), it makes no business sense for farmers to breed males for the bone industry and forfeit at least ZAR142 000 (USD14 900) in the process. Thus, selling the bones is of secondary benefit to their operation. Lionesses and juveniles are, however, at risk of being culled – but current data on the average mass of an exported skeleton suggests that the practice of exporting bones obtained from females and juveniles is in the minority for the time being.

ILLEGAL TRADE IN LIONS
The Lion bone trade in South Africa is juxtaposed within a network of dealers that operate both legally and illegally. The illegal trade in Lions and their body parts usually involves restricted activities for which offenders are not in possession of a permit to breed, keep, hunt, catch, sell, convey or export a live animal or parts thereof. Since African Lions are listed in Appendix II of CITES, any international trade requires a CITES export permit. There have been various reports of illegal Lion trade over the years, which seems to have escalated since 2008, but there are no specific official figures available for South Africa besides what are reported in the media or by the annual reports on seizures and prosecutions by TRAFFIC (e.g. TRAFFIC, 2013). Most reports refer to illegal translocations of animals, especially between the Northern Cape province and Botswana.

IMPACT ON WILD LION POPULATIONS IN SOUTH AFRICA
In South Africa, the trade in Lion bones currently has a negligible impact on wild Lion populations. The trade in bones appears to be a sustainable by-product of the sizeable trophy hunting industry in South Africa, and Lions that are hunted are almost exclusively captive-bred. There are few records of wild-hunting and poaching in the country, especially at a level that could supply the sizeable bone trade. The impact of the bone trade on wild Lion populations outside of South Africa, however, has yet to be determined.
 

Attachments

  • traffic_species_mammals83.pdf
    4.5 MB · Views: 83

billc

AH legend
Joined
Feb 10, 2011
Messages
3,647
Reaction score
4,157
Location
Pa.
Media
97
Hunting reports
Africa
8
USA/Canada
3
Hunted
united state- Co Nm Mt Wy Pa , canada ,mexico ,south africa- Northwest, Limpopo, freestste.Northern cape,East cape, namibia
I'm wondering what is going to become of a ton of captive raised lions. Do outfitters try to sell them fast and cheap ASAP before the date comes in (albeit to local hunters or those from countries that will still allow import)? Or do they simply euthanize and get what they can from meat/hides/etc? Regardless of how one feels about the issue, it seems like this is setting up a financial fall for some and at worse case scenario a mass killing of the same animals so many anti's set out to "save", as it's not like they are going to be set loose into the wild (where they would likely be poached or cause havoc). I am not sure I would have wanted to hunt a captive bred lion, but I do not begrudge anyone the right.


It is going to be a mix of all you said. Some lions will be killed off for bones and hides as not as many will be needed around for hunting. If your one who wants to hunt one and can do it before the deadline there is some great deals to be had.

There will also be some still raised for people from other countries to hunt. The price will come down i believe to let some clients from the states hunt them also. Some guys from the states will just want the experience and a picture will be fine.

The ban or phasa ideas does not stop the hunting of them. It is phasa trying to cover there ass so there guys can still make money hunting the raised animals the major of them hunt. Notice I said raised not pen raised. I dont care if it is animals on 1000 acres or 10,000 there on the SA ranches to hunt period. There all around because of hunting not because everyone wants to spends ten of thousands of dollars to just look at them.
 

AfricaHunting.com

Founder
AH ambassador
Joined
Oct 1, 2007
Messages
11,364
Reaction score
5,876
Website
AfricaHunting.com
Media
5,580
Articles
320
We farm many species on this earth, why would Africa not be able to farm it's own species?


Well, China may well have to pay a lot more for Lion bones and parts now…

- Growing Demand in China for Africa’s Lion Bones: https://www.chinafile.com/library/china-africa-project/growing-demand-china-africas-lion-bones
- Demand for lion bones offers South African breeders a lucrative return: http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/apr/16/south-africa-lion-bones-trade
- The African lion bone trade: http://africageographic.com/blog/the-african-lion-bone-trade/
 

Bsto270

AH enthusiast
Joined
Oct 8, 2015
Messages
323
Reaction score
347
Location
Pennsylvania, USA
Media
9
Hunting reports
Africa
2
All really interesting to think about. I agree that it won't stop hunting them, just like import restrictions don't stop US hunters from pursuing tuskless or other non-importable elephants (because let's face it, it has to be one awesome experience regardless for those with the money to go).
 

Bsto270

AH enthusiast
Joined
Oct 8, 2015
Messages
323
Reaction score
347
Location
Pennsylvania, USA
Media
9
Hunting reports
Africa
2
I agree Jerome. The USFWS unfortunately has declared this on a few species, which other countries are trusted to manage, and allow hunters to come and pursue. Right off the top of my head, I can think of Seals, Cheetah, Walrus (don't know why but was always fascinated by that one), and Brown hyena as non-importable species. I can go hunt them in one country or the other, but cannot bring back the trophy. All I can see is punishing the communities that manage these species by cutting off another source of revenue, much of which helps with conservation. I can see how billc is about right that this represents PHASA covering itself somewhat on this issue, particularly since Cecil. It is amazing what I learn on AH, I was not aware of the lion bone trade in Asia, even if I am not surprised it exists.
 

Custom

Bronze supporter
AH fanatic
Joined
Oct 29, 2012
Messages
537
Reaction score
462
Media
39
Hunting reports
Africa
2
Member of
NRA, SCI, DSC, Ducks Unlimited, Pheasants Forever
Hunted
USA, RSA, Zimbabwe
I have never hunted lion, though I could probably afford it (my wife may disagree!). I have kicked it around a bit, but have now seemingly waited too long. It seems to me, though, that the SA situation is a short-term matter of balancing supply with a likely decreased demand due to the ban. Prices will probably fall in the near-term for existing stock and some will likely lose money, but over the long haul the economics will balance. What I am really concerned about is the impact on wild populations in other countries. With no value attached to wild populations, no one will pay for anti poaching efforts and the indigenous populations will be far less tolerant of lions taking their stock and threatening their people. We can only hope that USFWS comes to their senses!
 

Bsto270

AH enthusiast
Joined
Oct 8, 2015
Messages
323
Reaction score
347
Location
Pennsylvania, USA
Media
9
Hunting reports
Africa
2
Agreed @Custom . Then again if the USFWS comes to its senses I could probably think of a few species I would hunt before lions if they started pulling import restrictions.
 

Hank2211

Gold supporter
AH legend
Joined
Jan 12, 2010
Messages
2,957
Reaction score
6,729
Media
141
Articles
3
Hunting reports
Africa
10
Member of
SCI, DU, Pheasants Forever
Hunted
Canada, United States, Zimbabwe, South Africa (Eastern Cape; Northern Cape; North West Province, Natal, Mpumalanga, Limpopo), Namibia, Cameroon, Benin, Ethiopia, Argentina
Agreed @Custom . Then again if the USFWS comes to its senses I could probably think of a few species I would hunt before lions if they started pulling import restrictions.
A topic for a new thread? I'm curious which animals you'd hunt if there were no import restrictions.
 

Patrick R

AH fanatic
Joined
Aug 18, 2009
Messages
792
Reaction score
143
Location
Rustenburg, North West Province
Media
38
Articles
1
Hunting reports
Africa
4
Hunted
Botswana, Namibia, Zimbabwe, South Africa
here is another scenario...

lets say the Outfitter / PH gets expelled from PHASA because of the involvement of captive bred Lion and lets say the hunting of them...

1. will you still hunt with this Outfitter / PH?

I know hunters do chose Outfitter / PH's from PHASA to hunt with, that is what they promote...but, technically Outfitter / PH's involved or identified will not fall in their declaration anymore as stated below?




Why should you hunt with a PHASA Member?



An African safari is an expensive dream that in many cases comes along only once or twice in a lifetime. Add peace of mind when you book your safari by hunting with a PHASA member. We pride ourselves in having some of the finest African outfitters and professional hunters as our members, outfitters and professional hunters who are, in most cases, the most active in the South African industry.

Our members willingly adhere and subscribe to our strict Code of Conduct and are subject to our disciplinary oversight process. Each membership application is carefully scrutinized. Applicants with a known and recorded history of unethical behaviour are denied PHASA membership.

An increasing number of international clubs and shows recognise and promote the importance and value of booking with PHASA members when hunting in South Africa. For this reason PHASA members only are allowed to market South African hunts at the premier overseas shows (this arrangement does not apply to agents). A number of hunt tenders are, for the same reason, available to PHASA members only.

We keep our members up to date with the latest developments in the industry including developments that may affect your safari (such as changes in legislation, airline policies etc.)

PHASA offers assistance to all hunting tourists visiting South Africa who may encounter difficulties. For example, your professional hunter fails to collect you at the airport. We can assist with accommodation arrangements and provide valuable advice and guidance.

We have extremely good relations with the vast majority of the premier safari clubs abroad, and thus have the ability to work with these clubs to resolve any issues their members may encounter.

PHASA and its loyal members are passionate about ensuring that your stay in South Africa is nothing less than phenomenal. Our members are listed on our website
 

KMG Hunting Safaris

Sponsor
Since 2013
AH ambassador
Reviews
18
Joined
Jul 9, 2010
Messages
5,677
Reaction score
7,305
Location
Eastern Cape, South Africa
Website
www.huntsafaris.co.za
Media
1,153
Articles
1
Hunting reports
Africa
5
Australia/NZ
1
Member of
DSC Life Member ; Eastern Cape Game Management Association ; PE Pistol and Rifle Club
Hunted
South Africa, Namibia, New Zealand, USA, Canada
Well, as far as I understand, as soon as SAPA cleans up it's act, PHASA will re-evaluate it's stance. Is SAPA not suppose to be meeting with PHASA soon? For some reason the end of January comes to mind.
 

35bore

AH legend
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
2,402
Reaction score
877
Media
74
Member of
NRA,Missouri hunters ed, SCI, Owensville Gun Club, Quail Forever
Hunted
USA, South Africa, France
Some clarity if someone knows?

1. This probably mean all Lion in RSA?
2. If so as above, this will mean 90-98% of PH's and Outfitters hunting Lion in RSA is going to be disciplined? or / and expel as members of PHASA?
3. Will mean loosing members then?

perhaps I translate it wrongly! please comment on this to clarify!



7 December 2015

POSITION PAPER ON CAPTIVE-BRED LION HUNTING

This position paper replaces any previous versions

PHASA has reversed its 2013 position on the hunting of captive-bred lions and will no longer tolerate this form of hunting. This decision was taken at the association’s 2015 annual general meeting (AGM), where the majority of PHASA members voted to take a stand against the practice.

The official resolution adopted reads as follows:
PHASA distances itself from all captive-bred lion breeding and hunting until such time as the South African Predator Association can convince PHASA and the International Union for Conservation of Nature that captive-bred lion hunting is beneficial to lion conservation.

The above decision is effective immediately and is binding on all PHASA members. If any evidence arises implicating a PHASA member as having participated in the hunting or marketing of a captive-bred lion, such member will be subjected to PHASA’s internal disciplinary process, which will include expulsion if found guilty.

We are happy to field queries and can be reached by email at ceo@phasa.co.za or telephonically on +27 12 667 2048.

Stan Burger
President
I'm sure the PHASA topic was covered in a thread quite a while back (this only has a bit to do with the OP) but if I remember correctly, majority of the folks who posted responses, could care less if they were hunting with a PHASA member. All I can say is a lot of organizations have become somewhat "disoriented " from their original cause/purpose.
 

AfricaHunting.com

Founder
AH ambassador
Joined
Oct 1, 2007
Messages
11,364
Reaction score
5,876
Website
AfricaHunting.com
Media
5,580
Articles
320
I'm sure the PHASA topic was covered in a thread quite a while back (this only has a bit to do with the OP) but if I remember correctly, majority of the folks who posted responses, could care less if they were hunting with a PHASA member. All I can say is a lot of organizations have become somewhat "disoriented " from their original cause/purpose.
Good memory 35bore! Here is the thread/poll that you are referring to:
Would you consider booking with a hunting outfitter who is not a member of PHASA?: http://www.africahunting.com/thread...-outfitter-who-is-not-a-member-of-phasa.4173/.

Please cast your vote there if you have not already, a good topic… and personally interested in the poll result as more member cast their votes.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
37,389
Messages
713,350
Members
66,705
Latest member
APTRenaldo
 

 

 

Latest posts

Latest profile posts

degoins wrote on Treemantwo's profile.
I have a like new VC .450 I might part with. I had it built in 2013 and it has served me well. Also have a VC fitted leather trunk case for it along with the plastic case it came with. I'll take 14000 for all of it.
Matt W wrote on Jody's profile.
Hi Jody,
I have been looking for ideas on the best way to display my European mounts from Africa. I came across some of your shield work and was wondering if you would be willing to make one for me? If so, please let me know the cost. I like the shield with the two spears that you built for a member years ago. Thanks.
cal pappas wrote on Mnelson2's profile.
Nelson. Is this message a PM format. I want to send you my email, but don't know if this is the cirrect way to do it. I'm at <pappas@mtaonline.net> Send me an email with your phone and I will call you about a skull I have. I went to school in Boston and am from Bernardston in the west part of the state. Moved to Alaska in 1984 adn never looked back.
BeeMaa wrote on Justbryan's profile.
Sold a Blaser scope mount to him. He was a pleasure to do business with.
BeeMaa wrote on 375Fox's profile.
Sold a Blaser scope mount to him. Was a pleasure to do business with.
 
Top