Buff are tough

[Kevin Peacocke]

Frontal shots aren't great for buff as you found out.....and when their adrenaline is up they can absorb a lot of even big calibres if not to the brain or neck before giving up ...is it you that will be using the 500 or your kids?...if it's them I would have gone for 416 rigby...

And Kevin I really can't believe you have actually gone over to the dark side and bought one of those things...

Mostly for the kids, I might shoot occasionally. When I say 'kids', the youngest is 33!

 

[318AE]

Frontal shots require very precise shot placement.

Moving up from a 375 with a quality bullet to 500 gives you exactly 1/16th of an inch more leeway in shot placement.

 

[coreydb]

Buffalos are true bullet sponges. For some reason, the caliber just doesn't seem to matter as much as bullet placement. I used my 375 H&H with 300 gr Swift A-frames and Woodleigh Hydro-shocks. Four shots, all kill shots and the buffalo still ran until it finally dropped. Bigger calibers just doesn't seem to be better, just .....bigger.

 

[reinwood]

I might be hurting the sensibility or belief of a few, but for me
375 for Buff is like 243 or 6.5 for Elk!
Works if all planets are aligned, but in fact not appropriate!

Yes a 375 can work but why would you risk a dangerous situation for you, the PH and the crew and loosing an wounded animal still having to pay a trophy fee?
why would you not take that extra security of a bigger caliber?

Rationally I only see 2 main reasons:
-inability to manage or fear of recoil for big bores or
-financial reason for not buying a bigger bore rifle.
Both are good reasons for a compromise for using a 375.
And it is of course better to be accurate wiht a 375 than unreliable with e.g., a 500.

I have hunted enough wildboars with my 9.3x62, witness how a 150lbs beast can survive such a caliber that I would never go and hunt a buffalo wiht a 9,3x62!

When I decided to go to Africa, I bought a CZ 458 Lott for DG and a CZ 375HH for big PG.
My experience is limited to only one buff with my CZ in 458 Lott, one shot, dropped 50 yards away.
At 165 yrds the TBBC 300gr of the 375 went through the chest of my Eland and stopped behind the skin on the other side. He run 150yards. I was happy not having used a smaller caliber.

I grew up hunting Chamois and Red Stag in the European Alps with 8x68s (180gr), then moved to 300WSM and 300WM (165gr and 180gr). I Used 338 Lapua (250gr) for Ibex and Atila wildboar. 300WSM for moose, caribou and black Bear (187gr). , 9,3x62 (250gr) for Wildboars. 458Lott for DG, 375 for Wildboar Atila and African PG.

My point is that I do not like to have to put a caveat or constraint "Assuming a well placed shot, then caliber xxx is good enough"

It shoul be only the minimum obvious: "a first good shot" so there is a safer room for small error from "well place" to "good" because animal might move last minute, shooting position might be not stable enough, there might be leafs, grass, trees, human error, etc.

Better safer than sorry. I like the safety net of a the right caliber and bullet.

But I accept other might have other criteria

 

[375Fox]

I might be hurting the sensibility or belief of a few, but for me
375 for Buff is like 243 or 6.5 for Elk!
Works if all planets are aligned, but in fact not appropriate!

Yes a 375 can work but why would you risk a dangerous situation for you, the PH and the crew and loosing an wounded animal still having to pay a trophy fee?
why would you not take that extra security of a bigger caliber?

Rationally I only see 2 main reasons:
-inability to manage or fear of recoil for big bores or
-financial reason for not buying a bigger bore rifle.
Both are good reasons for a compromise for using a 375.
And it is of course better to be accurate wiht a 375 than unreliable with e.g., a 500.

I have hunted enough wildboars with my 9.3x62, witness how a 150lbs beast can survive such a caliber that I would never go and hunt a buffalo wiht a 9,3x62!

When I decided to go to Africa, I bought a CZ 458 Lott for DG and a CZ 375HH for big PG.
My experience is limited to only one buff with my CZ in 458 Lott, one shot, dropped 50 yards away.
At 165 yrds the TBBC 300gr of the 375 went through the chest of my Eland and stopped behind the skin on the other side. He run 150yards. I was happy not having used a smaller caliber.

I grew up hunting Chamois and Red Stag in the European Alps with 8x68s (180gr), then moved to 300WSM and 300WM (165gr and 180gr). I Used 338 Lapua (250gr) for Ibex and Atila wildboar. 300WSM for moose, caribou and black Bear (187gr). , 9,3x62 (250gr) for Wildboars. 458Lott for DG, 375 for Wildboar Atila and African PG.

My point is that I do not like to have to put a caveat or constraint "Assuming a well placed shot, then caliber xxx is good enough"

It shoul be only the minimum obvious: "a first good shot" so there is a safer room for small error from "well place" to "good" because animal might move last minute, shooting position might be not stable enough, there might be leafs, grass, trees, human error, etc.

Better safer than sorry. I like the safety net of a the right caliber and bullet.

But I accept other might have other criteria

Thread 'Is Bigger Always Better?'

Dec 7, 2020

I thought this group may enjoy this article I wrote in the latest African Gazette.
A link to that particular issue (of which Divan Labuschagne, one of our great PHs, also took the cover picture):

Let me know your thoughts....

• ndumo HUNTING SAFARIS
• Replies: 62
• Forum: Articles

• 

 

[fourfive8]

Good write up Kevin. I believe it. My buff experience is with 416 REM and 450 Watts. I’ve never used a 375HH for buff. IMO, use as much gun/caliber as you can handle, buff are tough. The only experiences I’ve have re: 375 HH or non-standard cals for buff were… assisting in a two day tracking and loss after frontal shot by another hunter using a 375 HH and a day long track and lucky recovery of buff shot (multiple hits) by 45-70 lever gun cowboy wannabe. Seems like there is primarily bifurcated trend in hunting, both driven by ego, erroneously supported by improved bullets and equipment…. minimalist calibers for DG like buff and long range sniping.

 

[reinwood]

Thread 'Is Bigger Always Better?'

Dec 7, 2020

I thought this group may enjoy this article I wrote in the latest African Gazette.
A link to that particular issue (of which Divan Labuschagne, one of our great PHs, also took the cover picture):

Let me know your thoughts....

• ndumo HUNTING SAFARIS
• Replies: 62
• Forum: Articles

• 

Exactly: same conclusion about "recoil handling" and the caveat "if shoot it well"

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Hi Kevin,

I am sure you have considered other bigger bore than the 375.
In a bolt action why not a 458 Lott?

Good luck!

I did consider the 458 Lott, but since the 500 was available I went for it. I did a test shot and it was stiff, but manageable. Being a Blaser R8 I can easily add a 458 barrel.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Shot placement remains the most important factor, that is right; however, assuming identical shot placement, there are differences depending on the caliber. I am not basing this on what I have read, but I speak from personal experience, because I have shot buffalo with very different cartridges.

I agree

 

[375Fox]

375 for Buff is like 243 or 6.5 for Elk!
Works if all planets are aligned, but in fact not appropriate!

Yes a 375 can work but why would you risk a dangerous situation for you, the PH and the crew and loosing an wounded animal still having to pay a trophy fee?
why would you not take that extra security of a bigger caliber?

Rationally I only see 2 main reasons:
-inability to manage or fear of recoil for big bores or
-financial reason for not buying a bigger bore rifle.
Both are good reasons for a compromise for using a 375.
And it is of course better to be accurate wiht a 375 than unreliable with e.g., a 500.

I have hunted enough wildboars with my 9.3x62, witness how a 150lbs beast can survive such a caliber that I would never go and hunt a buffalo wiht a 9,3x62!

When I decided to go to Africa, I bought a CZ 458 Lott for DG and a CZ 375HH for big PG.
My experience is limited to only one buff with my CZ in 458 Lott, one shot, dropped 50 yards away.
At 165 yrds the TBBC 300gr of the 375 went through the chest of my Eland and stopped behind the skin on the other side. He run 150yards. I was happy not having used a smaller caliber.

I grew up hunting Chamois and Red Stag in the European Alps with 8x68s (180gr), then moved to 300WSM and 300WM (165gr and 180gr). I Used 338 Lapua (250gr) for Ibex and Atila wildboar. 300WSM for moose, caribou and black Bear (187gr). , 9,3x62 (250gr) for Wildboars. 458Lott for DG, 375 for Wildboar Atila and African PG.

My point is that I do not like to have to put a caveat or constraint "Assuming a well placed shot, then caliber xxx is good enough"

It shoul be only the minimum obvious: "a first good shot" so there is a safer room for small error from "well place" to "good" because animal might move last minute, shooting position might be not stable enough, there might be leafs, grass, trees, human error, etc.

Better safer than sorry. I like the safety net of a the right caliber and bullet.

But I accept other might have other criteria

Exactly: same conclusion about "recoil handling" and the caveat "if shoot it well"

View attachment 766203

You are writing two different things now. I’d say that article points to a different conclusion than “works if all planets are aligned but not appropriate.” Hunters have their valid reasons for going bigger than 375, but it seems many get the misconception they need something larger before they even hunt a buffalo.

 

[analog_peninsula]

Why on earth would anyone shoot a .500 from the bench? Use a MTM high/low table to zero and load test from the standing position, then practice from sticks, and off hand. I’d never shoot my A2 from the bench. Doing so is just asking for some form of injury.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Good write up Kevin. I believe it. My buff experience is with 416 REM and 450 Watts. I’ve never used a 375HH for buff. IMO, use as much gun/caliber as you can handle, buff are tough. The only experiences I’ve have re: 375 HH or non-standard cals for buff were… assisting in a two day tracking and loss after frontal shot by another hunter using a 375 HH and a day long track and lucky recovery of buff shot (multiple hits) by 45-70 lever gun cowboy wannabe. Seems like there is primarily bifurcated trend in hunting, both driven by ego, erroneously supported by improved bullets and equipment…. minimalist calibers for DG like buff and long range sniping.

I agree.

 

[DWB]

I use those 5 legged sticks for load development with all my Big Bores up to and including 500J.

I have shot some pretty damn nice groups with it.

Congrats on the purchase Uncle K!

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Thanks DWB. I am not familiar with five-legged sticks?

 

[Vintageguy]

My take from your stats are that frontal shots are a poor choice. Many safari videos also support this.
The obvious is the same. First shot needs to be well placed. If that shot can’t be made with a scoped 375 due to poor shot choice or shooter’s ability then the likelihood of a larger caliber rendering better results is slim in my opinion.
If the shooter’s marksmanship is up to it and they take only high quality shots, then stepping up in caliber is just more of a good thing, as long as they aren’t flinching in anticipation of recoil.
If a person is having trouble killing buffalo with a 375, the caliber that is likely killing more buffalo today than any other, more attention to shot placement and accuracy would probably be a better expense of time, effort, and money.
But if it is a justification for another safari rifle…? Then, why not.

 

[analog_peninsula]

Thanks DWB. I am not familiar with five-legged sticks?

Some of the quad sticks sets offer an optional fifth leg that adds considerable stability.

 

[MLindsay]

I shoot my 500 A2 and 450 Ackley from the bench all the time. I have a Pachmayr F990 pad on the 500 and then put a piece of closed cell foam between the pad and my shoulder sometimes. Really no probem at all

 

[reinwood]

You are writing two different things now. I’d say that article points to a different conclusion than “works if all planets are aligned but not appropriate.” Hunters have their valid reasons for going bigger than 375, but it seems many get the misconception they need something larger before they even hunt a buffalo.

Well, i did not meant to write 2 different things and can rephrase.
I think that a 375 for buff is inappropriate as there is less safety room for that real life not perfect shot (or said differently is appropriate *only if* very well paced shoot). And I do not like the "only if", thus a bigger bore is preferable, assuming -you can manage the recoil and -shoot as well a big bore as a 375.

 

[WAB]

Buffalos are true bullet sponges. For some reason, the caliber just doesn't seem to matter as much as bullet placement. I used my 375 H&H with 300 gr Swift A-frames and Woodleigh Hydro-shocks. Four shots, all kill shots and the buffalo still ran until it finally dropped. Bigger calibers just doesn't seem to be better, just .....bigger.

I have to disagree. I have shot multiple buffalo with the .375 H&H and .458 Lott. I have also been present on a one shot kill with a 9.3x62. All will do the job, but the Lott hits dramatically harder.

 

[coreydb]

I have to disagree. I have shot multiple buffalo with the .375 H&H and .458 Lott. I have also been present on a one shot kill with a 9.3x62. All will do the job, but the Lott hits dramatically harder.

Maybe I didn't convey my point clearly; I hate when I don't articulate well enough, and no chance to talk. When there is history of 7mm Mausers to the .600 calibers all killing and losing buffalos, bullet placement and proper bullet is the deciding factor in any kill. I definitely agree with your comment, I have the same calibers, but the .415 Rem Mag instead of your .458. It's a frickin awesome caliber, but my destroyed shoulder won't take it.....it sucks to be me on this.