Buff are tough

[Kevin Peacocke]

As per my other post about the new 500 Jeffrey acquisition a few of you asked, why the step up? It surprised me a little too, having always been a proponent of the 'enough gun, but not too much' tenet, but after our last hunt I just couldn't ignore the facts any longer.
I am only referring to our close group with buffalo results that I have personal experience upon, and here are the statistics:
1. Bull. 375 H&H. Soft. Gut shot possibly clipping a lung. 24 hr successful followup.
2. Bull. 375 H&H. Hornady DGX. Side two lung shot and plumbing. Dropped immediately and expired.
3. Cow. 375 H&H. Side chest, heart and lungs. Ran 10m, dropped and expired.
4. Cow. 375 H&H. Swift A frame. Frontal, possibly one lung? Set up ambush but bayed by dogs. 3 hrs.
5. Bull. 375 H&H. Hornady DGX. Centre chest frontal. Ran 10m, dropped and expired.
6. Cow. 375 H&H. DGX. Side heart and lungs. Ran 20m. Collapsed and expired.
7. Cow. 375 H&H. Swift A frame. Frontal. Ran, not recovered after 1 day.
8. Bull. 450/400. DGX. Side heart and lungs. Turned and staggered 10m. Dropped to second side shot to heart and lungs.
9. Bull. 375H&H. DGX. Side heart and lungs. Dropped, but got up again. Second shot heart and lungs. 375 H&H. DGS. Dropped again, but got up. Third shot. 450/400. DGX. Chest. Dropped, tried to get up. 5th shot 450/400. DGS. Chest. Tried to get up. Sixth shot. 450/400. DGS. Frontal brain shot, finally finished it.
10. Cow. 375 H&H. DGX. Frontal, possibly a bit high. Took off and ran, but rested at least four times in dense bush, no second shot possible. Copious blood, including a little pink blood initially so possibly a nicked a lung. Followed up the next day. Another three resting places observed with blood. Then blood dried up. Not recovered despite thorough search. No vultures.
11. Bull. 375 H&H. DGX. Frontal. Ran, no blood for 200 metres or so. Then minor spots of non-lung blood. Too dark to follow. Followup the following day. Blood dried up, but dragging the right hind leg. Set up ambush and charged from 12 metres. Initial heart lung side shot as it got up from a 500 Jeffrey solid. Then a 375 H&H DGX to the neck. Then another 500 Jeffrey solid quartering as it came around. Then a 450/400 DGX frontal. Then it dropped at 4 metres. Then a 500 Jeffrey and a 450/400 into the neck from above at 4m ended it.
The initial 375 H&H damaged the front leg and broke the back one, maybe ran down the side?

So in summary;
Three of the 375 side chest shots were one shot quick kills.
The 450/400 side chest shot was a 'one shot' quick kill.
One of the 375 frontal shots was a one shot kill.
Four of the 375 frontal shots were not killed outright, two were recovered on followup, two lost.
One of the 375 gut shots resulted in a 24 hr followup
One 375 side chest shot dropped, but took a lot of finishing off.

Conclusion:
375 H&H worked well for pefrect side chest heart and lung shots, but not well on frontal shots.
450/400 worked well on perfect side chest shot.

The sample is small I know, but for me it is enough. Not all shots will be perfect side heart lung and the problem stems as much from a poor first shot as from ineffective bullet performance. My kids will be hunting buff more and more with my equipment so I am opting for something to absolutely monimise risk. To me that is a lot of gun topped with a good DG scope and equipment wise that is as much as I can do. The rest is down to training and practice.

 

[Pondoro]

I chose my .470 double for buff, one bull and a cow.. Will use same rifle this summer for more buff.

My rifle (Krieghoff) is scoped with a Leupold red dot scope..makes for quick shots..

I shot a big old bull at some 25m with Hornady DGX bonded through both lungs...never walked a step..

.470 really thump buffalo..but I dislike the frontal shot..tricky..

All that said..a side lung shot from a .375 with a proper bullet will of course take a buff clean..

But I concluded, as you, a heavy rifle is an extra safety.. You never know what may happen in dense bush, buffalo is unpredictable, buff bulls AND cows occasionally attack out of the blue for no apparent reason.

 

[spike.t]

Frontal shots aren't great for buff as you found out.....and when their adrenaline is up they can absorb a lot of even big calibres if not to the brain or neck before giving up ...is it you that will be using the 500 or your kids?...if it's them I would have gone for 416 rigby...

And Kevin I really can't believe you have actually gone over to the dark side and bought one of those things...

 

[mark-hunter]

My modest experience.

375 HH, 300 swift a frame. Broad side. two heart lung shots, bull turned to face me, third shot frontal. Brain.
bull down, 31 seconds from first to third shot.

375 HH, friend hunting, me observing.
single shot rifle.
300 grains, 375 H&H, bullet barnes TTSX.
Frontal heart shot, center of heart. Bull run away 200 meters, dropped and expired.

 

[30-06Ken]

Just an observation here but it sounds like the shots where the Buffalo ran off were all poorly placed. I don't know any animal that is gut shot that wouldn't run off let alone a Buffalo. Getting a .500 Jefferey for someone who can't accurately shoot a .375 isn't going to make them a better shot. Maybe bullet selection played a part in it as well.

 

[Clodo Ferreira]

Hi Kevin,

I am sure you have considered other bigger bore than the 375.
In a bolt action why not a 458 Lott?

Good luck!

 

[WAB]

I went from a .375 to a .458 Lott on buffalo. The Lott was delivering a 500 gr bearclaw at 2.300 fps. It hits like the hammer of Thor. I have not shot a .500 J, so cannot offer a comparison to the Lott.

 

[AckleyHunter]

Frontal shots require higher precision. Slight deviations from the center result in only one lung being hit. If the animal is quartering even slightly, which is sometimes hard to precieve, the angle will result in a glancing shot.

 

[uplander01]

There are many things that can go wrong with shot placement and bullet reliability. It is comforting having as much power as you can handle when looking down the sights at a buff. That said unless you have the where with all to practice and master the mighty 500 Jeffery I would stick with something that starts with a .4 and put it exactly where it needs to go. I used a 500 J in a gma rifle for a few years and the field use was not a problem, but to practice and really get good with it dished out some pretty severe punishment to my body. My rifle weighed 10.5 pounds—-too light for caliber, I think properly done they need to weigh about 12 pounds, and it’s hard to make a bolt rifle weigh that much and not feel like a railroad ty is a difficult task. I would not try and convince anyone against the 500j, but one needs to be aware that as soon as you get to 90+ ft pounds of recoil the things you feel when you pull the trigger change quite dramatically.

 

[dogcat1]

It seems shot placement is the issue, no caliber. If those poor shots were make with the a .500 Whatever, the results would be the same....

Practice shooting and waiting for the best angle to shoot... Avoid frontal shots unless in a charge or a very close brain shot (ill advised due to the boss).

 

[BryceM]

The data size is small, but my conclusion would be that accurate shot placement into the actual vitals resulted in dead buffalo. If you can place shots accurately with a .500 Jeff, that’s fine, but pretty good data suggests better real-world results with .375, .404 Jeff, 9.3s, etc. Frontal shots are difficult, and they’re especially tricky if you can’t see if the animal is quartering a bit.

In a charge situation, only a bullet in the central nervous system will stop things immediately. Again, the ability to place that bullet well is the most important factor.

All of that said, the sweet spot for me is the .416 Rigby. Carry a few solids and you’re good for anything that walks. It has a bit more horsepower than the .375 and I can still shoot it well. Sectional density and straight-line penetration are pretty hard to beat. My personal sample size is very small, but I haven’t changed my mind yet.

 

[grand veneur]

There are many things that can go wrong with shot placement and bullet reliability. It is comforting having as much power as you can handle when looking down the sights at a buff. That said unless you have the where with all to practice and master the mighty 500 Jeffery I would stick with something that starts with a .4 and put it exactly where it needs to go. I used a 500 J in a gma rifle for a few years and the field use was not a problem, but to practice and really get good with it dished out some pretty severe punishment to my body. My rifle weighed 10.5 pounds—-too light for caliber, I think properly done they need to weigh about 12 pounds, and it’s hard to make a bolt rifle weigh that much and not feel like a railroad ty is a difficult task. I would not try and convince anyone against the 500j, but one needs to be aware that as soon as you get to 90+ ft pounds of recoil the things you feel when you pull the trigger change quite dramatically.

I agree.

It remains a hard work to practice with a lighter rifle caliber 500 Jeffery on a bench in order to shoot accurate, in particular with a scope. I have also own one of about 10,5 pounds weight without the scope. However, it is a good cartridge, above all for elephant hunting, but in my opinion not necessary for hunting buffalo.

 

[grand veneur]

It seems shot placement is the issue, no caliber. If those poor shots were make with the a .500 Whatever, the results would be the same....

Practice shooting and waiting for the best angle to shoot... Avoid frontal shots unless in a charge or a very close brain shot (ill advised due to the boss).

Shot placement remains the most important factor, that is right; however, assuming identical shot placement, there are differences depending on the caliber. I am not basing this on what I have read, but I speak from personal experience, because I have shot buffalo with very different cartridges.

 

[Fatback]

I have only shot 3 buffalo. One with a 375H&H, one with a 458 Win and my last one with a 416 Rem. The buff I shot with the 375 and 416 were in almost the same position and distance. 50 yards and facing me, in the wide open. I can say there was a dramatic difference in how each buff reacted to the shot. My experience, all be it limited, has convinced me that, for me, my 416 is the better choice for buffalo.

The bull shot with the 458 was a broadside presentation at about 40-45 yards and he only went 3-4 steps and it was over. I sold my 458 because the recoil was at my limit in terms of practicing enough, it just wasn’t comfortable for me to practice with, where my 416 is.

Obviously I have formed my opinions on a limited sample size but they work for me. YMMV.

 

[Fordy]

Gday Kevin
Welcome to the 500 club & im staying out of the r8 debate that spike tried to start yes I’m with him so no debate lol

Moving on yes placement & bullet ability go hand in hand which I love my 375’s one in h&h the other a rum which on a impact to tip point on Aussie buff ,scrubbies & odd cape or like sized critters the rum is just better ( with good bullets as it has gone the other way with poor choice of what it’s fed ) but it still lags behind the Jeffery but if you are willing to drop weight increase speed & have a pill that can handle it you watch the Jeffery go to another level even on some marginal shots well , if you push speed that is & a impact of 2700 puts a new emphasis on dead right there occurs

Side note on recoil with the Jeffery its brutal of the bench for me with full heavy loads & in the field it’s still one I need to slow down a touch on heavy pills as back on target suffers for me to do so I’d suggest trying a few out but dropping weight even to the 535 in woodleigh or Aframe etc & preformance is better than the 570 gr pills as speed is your friend regarding terminals ( if the pill can handle it , if it can’t you have the wrong pill )
But keep going down to the 475 raptor & then recoil is @ a level im back on target quicker & more importantly accurately

Today it looks like I’ve shelved all those weights & settled on a 358 ( oh @Bob Nelson 35Whelen Will love me lol ) which won’t be for everyone that’s for sure but one that is extremely pleasant to shoot even over 3k ( I haven’t fully decided on MV yet as that will be determined on a cull in June but 2750 plus it will be around those levels as I’ve already seen what that does & one that I’ll be using on elephant come July

Enjoy your time with the Jeffery & ease your way into it & it will be kind to you
Cheers

 

[spike.t]

Gday Kevin
Welcome to the 500 club & im staying out of the r8 debate that spike tried to start yes I’m with him so no debate lol

Moving on yes placement & bullet ability go hand in hand which I love my 375’s one in h&h the other a rum which on a impact to tip point on Aussie buff ,scrubbies & odd cape or like sized critters the rum is just better ( with good bullets as it has gone the other way with poor choice of what it’s fed ) but it still lags behind the Jeffery but if you are willing to drop weight increase speed & have a pill that can handle it you watch the Jeffery go to another level even on some marginal shots well , if you push speed that is & a impact of 2700 puts a new emphasis on dead right there occurs

Side note on recoil with the Jeffery its brutal of the bench for me with full heavy loads & in the field it’s still one I need to slow down a touch on heavy pills as back on target suffers for me to do so I’d suggest trying a few out but dropping weight even to the 535 in woodleigh or Aframe etc & preformance is better than the 570 gr pills as speed is your friend regarding terminals ( if the pill can handle it , if it can’t you have the wrong pill )
But keep going down to the 475 raptor & then recoil is @ a level im back on target quicker & more importantly accurately

Today it looks like I’ve shelved all those weights & settled on a 358 ( oh @Bob Nelson 35Whelen Will love me lol ) which won’t be for everyone that’s for sure but one that is extremely pleasant to shoot even over 3k ( I haven’t fully decided on MV yet as that will be determined on a cull in June but 2750 plus it will be around those levels as I’ve already seen what that does & one that I’ll be using on elephant come July

Enjoy your time with the Jeffery & ease your way into it & it will be kind to you
Cheers

Nah not starting a debate...just my pretty well known official job on here to take the piss out of blasers and also the 375 cal... ...ps love my 500 Jeffery....as I have said only weighs 9.5lbs in its b&c synthetic stock...but not that bad with sako factory ammo....which unfortunately they seem to have stopped making..

 

[375Fox]

Interesting data. I’m not sure I can draw any conclusions from it though besides buffalo are tough, frontal shots are difficult, and correct shot placement matters. I’m going to continue using my 375 H&H for most hunts. I find the rifle itself an advantage because it points well and I can reload and shoot fast. However, if I go on another early season buffalo hunt where visibility is zero and I’m only getting one shot, I’m taking my 450 Rigby.

 

[RLP]

Casting my vote - 416 Remington Magnum. Only one hard boss so far, but give me time...

 

[RLP]

I chose my .470 double for buff, one bull and a cow.. Will use same rifle this summer for more buff.

My rifle (Krieghoff) is scoped with a Leupold red dot scope..makes for quick shots..

I shot a big old bull at some 25m with Hornady DGX bonded through both lungs...never walked a step..

.470 really thump buffalo..but I dislike the frontal shot..tricky..

All that said..a side lung shot from a .375 with a proper bullet will of course take a buff clean..

But I concluded, as you, a heavy rifle is an extra safety.. You never know what may happen in dense bush, buffalo is unpredictable, buff bulls AND cows occasionally attack out of the blue for no apparent reason.

Sir, I am new to K 470 NE, sent you a pm.

 

[Adam Stevens]

Only taken one buff. 375hh barnes 300gr tsx.

frontal shot slighty quartered 70ish yards, knew to aim lower then you'd figure and hugged the line of closest shoulder.

Bullet went in and the pedals sharpnelled completely off and destroyed the lungs, the bullet continued and punched a hole through the heart.

It turned and rain 200 yards slighty uphill into the thicker stuff. barely a death bellow.

TOUGH animals!