Bolt Guns are Better than Doubles?

@Green Chile - I have to look for the YT video showing a 4-shot rapid fire contest between a double rifle and Blaser R8. If I recall correctly, they were of similar caliber but not the same. Points awarded based on shortest time and best accuracy…things that don’t normally go together with DG cartridges.
 
There are many variables to the question of DR vs Bolt that are purely personal.....

Eyesight - Do you need a scope to offset bad eyesight?
Proficiency- Are you willing to put in the time and ammo investment to master a double?
Terrain - Are you hunting thick jess or open savannah?

I completed my first Africa hunt in July for tuskless in Zimbabwe and I can tell you that no amount of reading or youtube videos will ever accurately depict how dark the Jess can be and how well animals especially elephant blend in.

I brought my .470ne Sabatti - The pic in my avatar is a L&R group from when Ken Owen regulated it, he also did a trigger job, sights, recoil reducer, load development and milled the rib for a Trijicon RMR 1moa sight.

Before leaving in July I had fired over 250rnds of .470ne in preparation for this hunt and was confident both free hand and from sticks; as a result I could hit 8" plates at 150yds all day long while using sticks and able to hit two 4" targets free hand @50yds faster with my .470 than I was able to with my M70 .270win...... point being is that I believe that most hunting foul ups with double rifles come from the shooter not putting in the time and resources to fully master their doubles.

As for the hunt, when the time came we had our tuskless in front of us and the rest of the herd(over a dozen) all around us, as she cleared the tree and presented herself, the only viable shot was a quartering to shoulder shot and in the mental clarity of the situation my brain said.....

"This looks nothing like any of the shot placement pics"

Boom! first shot clipped a 4" diameter branch nearly cutting it in half and the bullet broke the front shoulder and into her heart, immediately I hit her with shot #2 in the shoulder and again hit her heart, reload and put the dot on her forehead and Boom - Brain shot and dropped her cold.

Distance 11 paces - The RMR was perfect, a scope would have been a liability.
og4WLNI.jpg
 
Not exactly a fair comparison, but worth a watch. Scoped Blaser BD97 9.3x74 O/U double rifle vs Blaser R93 416RM with RDO.

 
Not exactly a fair comparison, but worth a watch. Scoped Blaser BD97 9.3x74 O/U double rifle vs Blaser R93 416RM with RDO.


Interesting video but a couple questions.

1. The idea was each fired exactly 8 shots and accuracy requirement was to hit the black on the target? Not much time was spent reviewing the targets.

2. Do you know if the R93 shooter was "catching" his brass as it looked like the DR shooter or at least was turning the rifle up to allow gravity to do its job of emptying the chambers. That of course would be if the rifle is an extractor type not ejector. The former would of course be a bit slower.
 
Interesting video but a couple questions.

1. The idea was each fired exactly 8 shots and accuracy requirement was to hit the black on the target? Not much time was spent reviewing the targets.

2. Do you know if the R93 shooter was "catching" his brass as it looked like the DR shooter or at least was turning the rifle up to allow gravity to do its job of emptying the chambers. That of course would be if the rifle is an extractor type not ejector. The former would of course be a bit slower.
There are a lot of things I believe should've been different. But if you want answers, I'd recommend sending a comment to the people who made the video. I have no idea and truly believe that the video leaves more questions than answers.

If I were doing this test, these would be the requirements...
SxS with ejectors vs Blaser R8
Same DG capable cartridge for both rifles
Same optics, preferably a RDO, 1x scope or irons
4" targets at 50 yards or meters
All other shots taken standing, off-hand
Add 3 seconds to the final time for each bullet outside the 4" circle.

I believe this would represent a good measure of what a client hunter should expect.

Given the above set of circumstances, I believe the R8 would be slower for two shots, but faster for four. If going for eight...I'm leaning towards the DR winning but it would be close with two proficient shooters who know their rifles. It sure would be fun.

Be nice to get these guys involved...
 
There are a lot of things I believe should've been different. But if you want answers, I'd recommend sending a comment to the people who made the video. I have no idea and truly believe that the video leaves more questions than answers.

If I were doing this test, these would be the requirements...
SxS with ejectors vs Blaser R8
Same DG capable cartridge for both rifles
Same optics, preferably a RDO, 1x scope or irons
4" targets at 50 yards or meters
All other shots taken standing, off-hand
Add 3 seconds to the final time for each bullet outside the 4" circle.

I believe this would represent a good measure of what a client hunter should expect.

Given the above set of circumstances, I believe the R8 would be slower for two shots, but faster for four. If going for eight...I'm leaning towards the DR winning but it would be close with two proficient shooters who know their rifles. It sure would be fun.

Be nice to get these guys involved...

Yah, can't be too critical of that first video. I'm guessing it was just one of those, "Hey let's try this for fun...." moments without an excessive amount of planning. Perhaps just an ad hoc deal put together in a couple minutes at the range.
 
There are many variables to the question of DR vs Bolt that are purely personal.....

Eyesight - Do you need a scope to offset bad eyesight?
Proficiency- Are you willing to put in the time and ammo investment to master a double?
Terrain - Are you hunting thick jess or open savannah?

I completed my first Africa hunt in July for tuskless in Zimbabwe and I can tell you that no amount of reading or youtube videos will ever accurately depict how dark the Jess can be and how well animals especially elephant blend in.

I brought my .470ne Sabatti - The pic in my avatar is a L&R group from when Ken Owen regulated it, he also did a trigger job, sights, recoil reducer, load development and milled the rib for a Trijicon RMR 1moa sight.

Before leaving in July I had fired over 250rnds of .470ne in preparation for this hunt and was confident both free hand and from sticks; as a result I could hit 8" plates at 150yds all day long while using sticks and able to hit two 4" targets free hand @50yds faster with my .470 than I was able to with my M70 .270win...... point being is that I believe that most hunting foul ups with double rifles come from the shooter not putting in the time and resources to fully master their doubles.

As for the hunt, when the time came we had our tuskless in front of us and the rest of the herd(over a dozen) all around us, as she cleared the tree and presented herself, the only viable shot was a quartering to shoulder shot and in the mental clarity of the situation my brain said.....

"This looks nothing like any of the shot placement pics"

Boom! first shot clipped a 4" diameter branch nearly cutting it in half and the bullet broke the front shoulder and into her heart, immediately I hit her with shot #2 in the shoulder and again hit her heart, reload and put the dot on her forehead and Boom - Brain shot and dropped her cold.

Distance 11 paces - The RMR was perfect, a scope would have been a liability.
og4WLNI.jpg
May I say extremely well done and well said!!! Congratulations on a great elephant!!!!!
 
You bring up a question that many of us go through on every trip. For me it is always about the experience. Most times I chose a double, based on tradition and just how my brain is wired. Nothing screams Africa to me like stalking in close and harvesting my quarry with a double. That being said you have to have the discipline to pass on shots that with a scoped bolt or single shot would be a easy shot.

IMO for DG you need to have a rifle you have a 100% confidence in. It fits you perfect and you have shot it a lot. Then knowledge of proper shot placement!!!! a perfect shot with a 9.3 or 375 vs a gut shot with a 600 NE. The first will result in a short blood trail the second a very long couple of days of follow up. So pick the rifle you have confidence in, define the hunt experience you want to have. make a decision and don't look back. It is your safari and you are the only one that can make the ultimate decision on which platform you will take.
A man after my own heart!!!!!
 
BeeMaa, how does the Lee speed bolt cycling compare to the R-8 I’ve only cycled both. Never shot either repeatedly and quickly. I know the R-8 has other popular features. But does the Lee speed stack up on cycling speed ?
 
I'd like to say the Lee Speed is faster, but it simply isn't. The Lee Speed is a traditional bolt action requiring 4 motions (up, back, forward & down) to the two motions (back and forward) of the R8.

The Blaser and similar straight pull options are quicker on the re-load than traditional bolt actions, and there is no amount of negotiation that will change this. There is a reason that the majority of EU driven game hunters have gone to this design. SPEED is king in these circles. Browning Maral, Merkel Helix, Haenel Jaeger, Beretta BRX1 or Blaser R8...they are all chasing speed. And they dominate the European driven hunts for this very reason.
 
If I had both (which I do), but could take only one for an elephant hunt, I would choose the DR.



I would want to hunt elephant at closer range than any other DG animal.

I took both rifles on my last buffalo hunt, but could never get close enough to make a shot with the DR.


If you are allowed to bring both, then bring both and use your DR, if the situation makes it the better choice.

I would much rather take an elephant with a BA than travel halfway around the world to not not take an elephant.

During my last hunt in Mozambique, several folks in my hunting party actually wanted to play the role of "gun bearer" and carry the DR!
 
I suppose the optimum solution is to be proficient with both and have both. Or at least to have a bolt and a double on the hunt. That could be a possibility on an elephant because by PH says there will be two PHs on an elephant hunt.

My PH drove home to me that the most important thing a client can do is to make that first shot very well placed. He absolutely didn't want me to be so concerned about a fast second shot that I sacrificed the first shot. I am absolutely convinced my best first shot is with a bolt rifle and a low power scope.

Yes, a double points quickly and it feels good to bring a double on target, but doubles are clunky to me. Now I can overcome that and I expect to, but the deck is stacked against a DR for me. I have been shooting bolt rifles for 50+ years and have shot thousands of rounds through them. I have been shooting heavy recoiling bolt guns for the last 25 years. I shoot long range competition (1000 yd BR) with bolt guns. Shooting a bolt rifle is beyond second nature for me.

For me, fastest first shot is with a bolt and a low power scope. I have made these kind of snap shots for many years. The optics, better trigger, and accuracy make such shots easier and faster. I can cycle the action under recoil and be ready to shoot the second shot as soon as the bolt gun comes down from recoil. With a bolt I can rinse and repeat all the way through shot six. With a double that requires two action openings and a very well practiced awkward reload process.

The DR doesn't need to be cycled for the second shot, but the shape of a proper DR stock causes more muzzle rise and thus slower recovery, which somewhat negates the one advantage of the double.

No matter how we slice this, a bolt gun provides more opportunities than a DR. A DRs is only superior when needing to make a very rapid second shot. Further, there is a much higher likelihood of making that very well placed first shot in almost all scenarios with a bolt (for me), and with a well placed first shot the second shot rarely becomes a life or death thing.

Now I can see myself using my DR on my next buffalo hunt. Since I have already taken one buffalo I am not so intent on having every opportunity for the next. However, I will only have one elephant hunt, and I want to have the absolute best chance with whatever shot presents itself. For me, at least right now, that is with a bolt gun.

Pierre van der Walt talks a lot about the pros and cons of bolt vs double in his book "African Dangerous Game Cartridges". He seems very objective to me. One of the things he points out is that DRs are not designed to be as rugged and reliable as bolt guns. I have no personal knowledge of that as I only have a few hundred rounds though DRs and only at the range. I do know that a properly set up bolt rifle is extremely reliable and will operate in the dust, dirt and mud; and can be treated very badly and still be reliable. I am not so sure that is the case with a DR.

All this aside, I am not decided on this whole thing. I have taken the bolt side mainly because I have always had the assumption that DRs were better and the only reason guys don't get them was because of cost. It's only been this year that my eyes have been opened to the many scenarios where a bolt gun is better than a DR of any price.

I have two years to sort this out before my elephant hunt. I will work on my 470 NE and see how well things go.

I also just ordered a CZ550 Safari action from Wayne. He is going to install a 3-position safety and the single stage trigger. I will chamber the barrel and bed the stock. I will find a 500 grain load for solids. Wayne told me what to do to make the action feed 458 Lott. I am still deciding on the stock but am leaning toward the Accuracy Innovations wooden stock with the aluminum bedding block. I will probably install a Falconstrike recoil pad. I am undecided on a red dot vs a Trijicon or Nightforce 1-6 or 1-8 scope.

You can already see the bias creeping in. I know exactly what to do to the bolt gun. All I know to do to the DR is install the Falconstrike pad (done), find a load that regulates, and consider a red dot optic vs a fiber optic front sight. I don't know how to safely fix the awful trigger pull or make the it fit me better.

And since there seems to be a trend of posting animal pics in these discussions, even though the animal pic provides zero support to the idea of bolt vs double; it is ALWAYS cool to see these pics. So here is mine, taken a couple weeks ago. It's not as good of a pic of the animal, but it's a better picture of me. :cool: It's not even a spectacular bull. The only thing special about him is it was my first African animal and my first buffalo. And yes, my first shot was very well placed, and 400 grain, 416 Cal SAFs are amazing on buffalo.....


IMG_5611.jpeg
 
Imagine Franz-Albrecht zu Oettingen-Spielberg attending a competition as posted above. We would be shooting for second only.
I’ve seen the YT videos, pretty amazing what he can do with a rifle and AimPoint optic.
 

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I'd like to say the Lee Speed is faster, but it simply isn't. The Lee Speed is a traditional bolt action requiring 4 motions (up, back, forward & down) to the two motions (back and forward) of the R8.

Agreed. I like the Lee Speed but it's not even in the same ballpark as the R8 for speed of cycling.

IMG_8316.JPG
 
Example of times when a double is better than a bolt. Second shot from the double is done while the PH is still cycling his weapon.

That's Buzz of course with his old 416 Rigby and I know the client...I believe that is his 500 NE. He had a lot of experience shooting ele and buff with it.
 
That one on the left looks familiar. Hmmmm……
Yes and headed to Africa in 1 month for DG. It shoots multiples into 1 friggin hole. Love it.
 

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