Big bore rifle penetration- Anyone experience underpenetration ?

[Nhoro]

Hi All.

Anyone have actual data where the bullet was on target but didn't make it to the target- ie it under penetrated ?

I am talking bullets on the perfect line for the brain or heart/lungs and they either underpenetrated or turned/tumbled and so the animal was wounded. Specifically, the bullet did not make it to the vitals. Please state the factory load or bullet/velocity combination of handloads. Lets say 375 and up ?

 

[ChrisG]

The only experience I have is on black bear and one was a .375 h&h and one was with a .416 Ruger. Not comprehensive at all but if anything, I will say, based on those two shots both calibers penetrate very well. Both punched straight through at oblique angles in perfectly straight lines and devastated tissue and bone like they weren't even there. Probably not the test you were looking for... I've never popped an elephant so I dont know. But they work great for what I've used them for!

 

[Major Khan]

I have personally had several of my clients armed with .458 Winchester magnum caliber rifles , experience penetration issues ... Especially when frontal shots were required on our 500 pound male royal Bengal tigers or our 3000 pound male gaur bison . We frequently had 500 grain solid metal covered round nosed bullets fail to break the shoulder or penetrate both lungs on a gaur bison . The 510 grain soft point bullets had a propensity to badly deform , upon striking the shoulder bones of a royal Bengal tiger .

The ammunition used was factory loaded 500 grain solid metal covered round nosed “ Full Metal Jacket “ cartridges and factory loaded 510 grain soft point cartridges . Both Winchester Western and Remington Peters brand cartridges used to have this problem , back in those days .

FRESH Remington Peters brand cartridges were , indeed capable of achieving the advertised velocities of 2130 feet per second . How ever , the Remington Peters brand 500 grain solid metal covered round nosed steel jacketed bullets were prone to bending . Winchester Western brand cartridges were failing to achieve the advertised velocity of 2130 feet per second ... Even when fresh .

Many of my clients used to hand load cartridges for their .458 Winchester magnum caliber rifles ... By using Hornady 500 grain round nosed cupronickel jacketed bullets ( Prior to 1961 , Hornady used to manufacture their solid metal covered bullets with steel jackets ) and IMR propellant powder ( 3031 , if my memory serves me correctly ) . These ( when FRESHLY ) were capable of achieving an impressive velocity of 2130 feet per second . How ever , if the cartridges were stored for upwards of 3 years ... Then , velocity would become erratic again . The pre 1961 copper clad steel jacketed solid metal covered bullets were EXTREMELY sturdily constructed . They could cleanly break the shoulder bone of a 3000 pound male gaur bison , with out experiencing any ( Perceptible ) distortion . The post 1961 cupronickel jacketed bullets were reasonably well constructed , as well . How ever , they would some times distort badly ... When used on frontal chest shots on gaur bison .

 

[ChrisG]

I have personally had several of my clients armed with .458 Winchester magnum caliber rifles , experience penetration issues ... Especially when frontal shots were required on our 500 pound male royal Bengal tigers or our 3000 pound male gaur bison . We frequently had 500 grain solid metal covered round nosed bullets fail to break the shoulder or penetrate both lungs on a gaur bison . The 510 grain soft point bullets had a propensity to badly deform , upon striking the shoulder bones of a royal Bengal tiger .

The ammunition used was factory loaded 500 grain solid metal covered round nosed “ Full Metal Jacket “ cartridges and factory loaded 510 grain soft point cartridges . Both Winchester Western and Remington Peters brand cartridges used to have this problem , back in those days .

FRESH Remington Peters brand cartridges were , indeed capable of achieving the advertised velocities of 2130 feet per second . How ever , the Remington Peters brand 500 grain solid metal covered round nosed steel jacketed bullets were prone to bending . Winchester Western brand cartridges were failing to achieve the advertised velocity of 2130 feet per second ... Even when fresh .

Many of my clients used to hand load cartridges for their .458 Winchester magnum caliber rifles ... By using Hornady 500 grain round nosed cupronickel jacketed bullets ( Prior to 1961 , Hornady used to manufacture their solid metal covered bullets with steel jackets ) and IMR propellant powder ( 3031 , if my memory serves me correctly ) . These ( when FRESHLY ) were capable of achieving an impressive velocity of 2130 feet per second . How ever , if the cartridges were stored for upwards of 3 years ... Then , velocity would become erratic again . The pre 1961 copper clad steel jacketed solid metal covered bullets were EXTREMELY sturdily constructed . They could cleanly break the shoulder bone of a 3000 pound male gaur bison , with out experiencing any ( Perceptible ) distortion . The post 1961 cupronickel jacketed bullets were reasonably well constructed , as well . How ever , they would some times distort badly ... When used on frontal chest shots on gaur bison .

I have to say... the guar bison looks like a 3000 lb body builder. I can totally understand how a .458 might have a hard time breaking one down. Would you think something like a .416 throwing a 400 grain copper solid like a CEB or barnes solid would be more adequate?

 

[Major Khan]

I have to say... the guar bison looks like a 3000 lb body builder. I can totally understand how a .458 might have a hard time breaking one down. Would you think something like a .416 throwing a 400 grain copper solid like a CEB or barnes solid would be more adequate?

It would be unprofessional and avaricious of me to comment on the .416 Rigby caliber or homogeneous brass bullets ... Because I have no personal experience with said caliber or bullets , Chris . You will forgive me . How ever , based on personal experience ... I can offer you the following data :

> A FRESHLY hand loaded .458 Winchester magnum cartridge , which is loaded with IMI 3031 propellant powder and pre 1961 copper clad steel jacketed round nosed solid metal covered 500 grain bullets ... Is easily capable of achieving a velocity of 2150 feet per second . This loading IS capable of smashing cleanly through the upper fore leg bone of a gaur bison ... And penetrating in to the heart .

> A .476 Westley Richards caliber ICI Kynoch 520 grain cupronickel jacketed solid metal covered round nosed cartridge ( Which had an advertised velocity of 2100 feet per second ) is easily capable of breaking both shoulders of a gaur bison ... And completely making a mess of it’s heart . The brute ( A mighty imposing 3,004 pound specimen ) simply gave up . It had enough ... On the spot . Never in my life , have I ever seen a rifle ... Which was so brutishly efficient on a gaur .

I know that I have failed in answering your question . How ever , I certainly hope that the above information was helpful ?

 

[ChrisG]

It would be unprofessional and avaricious of me to comment on the .416 Rigby caliber or homogeneous brass bullets ... Because I have no personal experience with said caliber or bullets , Chris . You will forgive me . How ever , based on personal experience ... I can offer you the following data :

> A FRESHLY hand loaded .458 Winchester magnum cartridge , which is loaded with IMI 3031 propellant powder and pre 1961 copper clad steel jacketed round nosed solid metal covered 500 grain bullets ... Is easily capable of achieving a velocity of 2150 feet per second . This loading IS capable of smashing cleanly through the upper fore leg bone of a gaur bison ... And penetrating in to the heart .

> A .476 Westley Richards caliber ICI Kynoch 520 grain cupronickel jacketed solid metal covered round nosed cartridge ( Which had an advertised velocity of 2100 feet per second ) is easily capable of breaking both shoulders of a gaur bison ... And completely making a mess of it’s heart . The brute ( A mighty imposing 3,004 pound specimen ) simply gave up . It had enough ... On the spot . Never in my life , have a ever seen a rifle ... Which was so brutishly efficient on a gaur .

I know that I have failed in answering your question . How ever , I certainly hope that the above information was helpful ?

Anyone who makes their living out of hunting gigantic, dangerous brutes has a well-founded opinion and anything you can add will have more merit than any theoretical opinion I can offer.

 

[One Day...]

It all comes down to powder capacity, sectional density and bullet construction.

With enough of each, any load will penetrate, starting from the 1903 6.5x54 Mannlicher Schoenauer, a perfect example that these three characteristics are interrelated and independent of caliber...

A modern .458 Win (not even a Lott) load where limited powder capacity is used to its fullest potential by modern propellant with a modern solid generally achieves pass-through on an elephant brain shot...

Conversely, early .458 Win loads where limited powder capacity was compromised by Olin spherical powder that agglomerated under tropical heat and failed to fully ignite, combined with bullets of earlier imperfect designs, did fail in the field often enough for the .458 Win saga to be born. It has been long resolved but it is still alive and ongoing...

Another classic example is the 10.75 x 68 Mauser that generally gained a very poor reputation for penetration due to the lack of sectional density (and the poor design) of its bullets. It worked apparently well enough for many folks who took lung shots on elephants, but those who tried to use it on frontal elephant brain shots were apparently taking a risky gamble.

Modern propellants and modern bullets have also changed entirely the performance of this cartridge...

I am not aware of any modern load for any modern DG caliber (.375, .416, .458, .470, .500, .505, etc.) that has a penetration issue. This of course excludes large caliber commercial loads that are NOT dangerous game loads (e.g. .375 Winchester, .444 Marlin; .45/70, etc.) although custom loads and custom throat rifles can allow them to shoot bullets with acceptable sectional density that will penetrate; which is the same hand loading fix that Major Khan mentions for the early .458 Win issues...

And of course, any Soft will fail to do the job of a Solid, so common sense applies... Even a Swift A Frame or a Barnes TSX is a bad idea to perforate lengthwise, starting from the rear, a Buff, Hippo, Rhino, Elephant, or big cat of either African or Asian persuasion...

 

[Nhoro]

I have personally had several of my clients armed with .458 Winchester magnum caliber rifles , experience penetration issues ... Especially when frontal shots were required on our 500 pound male royal Bengal tigers or our 3000 pound male gaur bison . We frequently had 500 grain solid metal covered round nosed bullets fail to break the shoulder or penetrate both lungs on a gaur bison . The 510 grain soft point bullets had a propensity to badly deform , upon striking the shoulder bones of a royal Bengal tiger .

The ammunition used was factory loaded 500 grain solid metal covered round nosed “ Full Metal Jacket “ cartridges and factory loaded 510 grain soft point cartridges . Both Winchester Western and Remington Peters brand cartridges used to have this problem , back in those days .

FRESH Remington Peters brand cartridges were , indeed capable of achieving the advertised velocities of 2130 feet per second . How ever , the Remington Peters brand 500 grain solid metal covered round nosed steel jacketed bullets were prone to bending . Winchester Western brand cartridges were failing to achieve the advertised velocity of 2130 feet per second ... Even when fresh .

Many of my clients used to hand load cartridges for their .458 Winchester magnum caliber rifles ... By using Hornady 500 grain round nosed cupronickel jacketed bullets ( Prior to 1961 , Hornady used to manufacture their solid metal covered bullets with steel jackets ) and IMR propellant powder ( 3031 , if my memory serves me correctly ) . These ( when FRESHLY ) were capable of achieving an impressive velocity of 2130 feet per second . How ever , if the cartridges were stored for upwards of 3 years ... Then , velocity would become erratic again . The pre 1961 copper clad steel jacketed solid metal covered bullets were EXTREMELY sturdily constructed . They could cleanly break the shoulder bone of a 3000 pound male gaur bison , with out experiencing any ( Perceptible ) distortion . The post 1961 cupronickel jacketed bullets were reasonably well constructed , as well . How ever , they would some times distort badly ... When used on frontal chest shots on gaur bison .

Thank you for your comprehensive reply. It is excatly along the lines of what I was thinking and wanting to discuss. There were years when profit ruled the firearm world and companies were criminal in the junk that they produced.

I noticed that I have not seen anyone posting about bullets failing to penetrate while on target so I asked the question. Do you guys think our modern ammuntion is much better ? I expected at least a few stories of bullets bending or not reaching the vitals ?

 

[Major Khan]

Anyone who makes their living out of hunting gigantic, dangerous brutes has a well-founded opinion and anything you can add will have more merit than any theoretical opinion I can offer.

Why thank you so much for your kind words , Chris . I was discussing your original question today ... With my good friends and former colleagues , @Kawshik Rahman and Hamid Moula ( Who , in his career ... Has only ever guided clients for royal Bengal tiger and gaur bison ) . All 3 of us are in agreement that the gaur bison of India should not be tackled with a rifle that possesses a bore size smaller than .450 . And the minimum bullet weight and velocity that should be achieved by such a rifle are 500 grains and 2130 feet per second , respectively . The bullet should have a strong copper clad steel jacket , which COMPLETELY enclosed the bullet ... And it should be slightly flattened at the point ( What you American gentle men refer to , as a “ Meplat “ ) . Sadly , all of us retired at least 15 years prior to the advent of the 1st homogeneous brass bullets ( Pioneered by Colonel Art Alphin of A Square ) .

 

[Major Khan]

Thank you for your comprehensive reply. It is excatly along the lines of what I was thinking and wanting to discuss. There were years when profit ruled the firearm world and companies were criminal in the junk that they produced.

I noticed that I have not seen anyone posting about bullets failing to penetrate while on target so I asked the question. Do you guys think our modern ammuntion is much better ? I expected at least a few stories of bullets bending or not reaching the vitals ?

It is truly a shame , Nhoro . Winchester Western is actually responsible for some of my personal favorite innovations in the fire arms world . We have the pre 64 Winchester Model 70 ( The actions of which , used to be hand fitted ... Back in those days ) , the Winchester Silver Tip soft point bullet ( The only soft point bullet which was guaranteed NOT to deform , due to recoil in magazine rifles ... Back in those days ) and the early 1 piece compression formed Winchester 12 Bore shot gun cartridges . I still have more than 4 dozen of these vintage compression formed Winchester 12 Bore shot gun cartridges , in my ammunition locker .

Sadly , some of their business practices are ( Or were ) down right shameful .

Let us now , delve in to your question. I do believe that the modern sports man has INFINITELY better bullets available to him ... Than any thing which we had at our time . In around 1995 , my former colleague and best friend ( The late Tobin Stakkatz ) began to use Federal Premium brand factory loaded ammunition ( 500 grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claw soft point cartridges and 500 grain Trophy Bonded Sledge Hammer solid metal covered cartridges ) in his .458 Winchester magnum caliber rifle . Tobin used to own a custom built .458 Winchester magnum caliber rifle , which was built on a Springfield Model 1903 action with a French Walnut stock with a Douglas barrel ( 25 inches ) .

Up on visiting Tobin in America , I trialled these new Federal Premium brand Trophy Bonded bullets . I was most impressed ! The lead core of the bullets was chemically fused to an impressively thick brass “ Jacket “ . The point was also slightly flattened , as opposed to being rounded . Fresh ammunition was capable of achieving a velocity of 2128 feet per second ... From Tobin’s 25 inch rifle barrel . The bullets were practically immune to distortion . In my ( Antiquated ) eyes , Federal Premium’s Trophy Bonded ammunition utilized the finest and most sturdily constructed bullets , which I have ever seen .

Unfortunately , in recent years ... Tobin’s son ( Who now possesses and uses the rifle ) tells me that Federal’s Trophy Bonded bullets have significantly deteriorated in quality , with cases of bullet distortion becoming disconcertingly frequent . In modern times , the traditional solid metal covered bullet of our time ( Which you gentle men refer to , as “ Full Metal Jacket “ ) has been largely pushed in to obsolescence by the modern homogeneous brass bullet . I do believe ( Unless I am very mistaken ) that only Woodleigh and Hornady manufacture traditional solid metal covered bullets , nowadays . The non expanding bullets offered by other brands , are virtually ALL homogeneous brass bullets . But Australian Woodleigh bullets are extremely well constructed and of the highest quality .

And that is perfectly alright . By design alone , the modern homogeneous brass bullet is FAR less likely to distort ... Compared to the solid metal covered lead cored bullets of our time . My only concern about these modern homogeneous bullets , is that I have read of some cases of these bullets wearing out the rifling grooves of rifle barrels ... During long term use . How ever , I have read of this problem occurring mainly with UNBANDED bullets made from Naval Bronze . There is no report of this problem occurring with BANDED bullets made from brass , containing a 5 % lead content .

 

[fourfive8]

Again, Major Khan thanks for sharing all the experience-based insight! Reminded me of back when I did a lot of shotshell loading and shooting including the tricky load tweaking of shotshells. The WW compression-formed hull proved superior. The low base version was called the AA. Durable, tough as nails for re-loading purposes and with very large internal capacity which allowed for many more options for loads... including high performance buffered large shot loads and steel shot loads.

As to the old FMJ (full patch) bullets yes, they occasionally left something to be desired as has been documented over the years. As you pointed out, the monolithic solid, especially the flat point monolithic solid, has really re-written the book on the design for reliable and predictable penetrating bullets. The development of the drive band design with those bullets mostly solved the issues of pressure and wear and tear on older or softer barrels. Why the drive band design didn't start earlier I don't know. That technology has been known and used for artillery projectiles for at least 160+ years. And even to this day not all monolithics are designed with drive bands- go figure? I think the other thread that dealt, in depth, with the round nose vs the flat nose bullet discussed most of these ideas.

Coincidentally, I just tested an original, period correct example of WDM Bell's favorite bullet for elephant- the round nose, 7mm 173 gr DWM nickel plated, thick jacketed lead core "solid" in wet paper test media. At about 2250 fps impact velocity, the bullet did penetrate fairly deep but at the 25" mark it turned sideways as it lost stability?? and did veer off course at a slight angle penetrating to about 42". Not bad considering most all modern expanding soft points (like TSXs and A Frames) out of 30, 338, 375 and 416 cal only make it to a max depth ranging between about 15" and 20" in the same media. The bullet design that seems to prove most reliable for straight line penetration is the monolithic flat point solid. I have no hunting experience with the brass version of this design but can testify that the copper version (GSC Flat Nose copper monolithic) penetrates exceedingly well and in a straight line. Both as tested in the wet paper media and in elephant tissue.

The only time I witnessed the failure of a DG type bullet was a 300 gr lead core jacketed "solid" type out of a 375 HH that apparently ? veered off course after hitting a cape buffalo in the chest- facing angle. An experienced but indifferent hunter with lots of $ was later successful on another buffalo after losing that buffalo... in spite of a great effort by the trackers to find it. The bullet likely hit just off center of the chest and veered off track- missing the heart/lungs/vitals. That shot angle carries a well known risk as the shoulders and ribs of Cape buffalo form a type of interlocking shield plate- visible if their anatomy is studied in detail. Likely also, but no one will never know for certain of course, that a modern, flat point monolithic would have tracked true into the vitals at that angle.

link to interesting info on flat point monolithics
http://www.gsgroup.co.za/03fn.html

 

[Philip Glass]

Only one time on a zebra where I hit a limb and the .375 bullet entered sideways. Zebra was dead as a hammer though. I’ve had food penetration with all big bores and most dramatic was the rhino with .470. A quartering towards me shot with Barnes TSX. Bullet entered on shoulder and went all the way through and exited.
Interesting discussion.

 

[RayAtkinson]

Some caliber big bores are known for a lack of penetration, particularly the 577 and 600 NE..butt they apparently make up for it in knock down..Ive seen the 577 fail miserably and I have one such instance on film on a buffalo..ID call it too much of a good thing perhaps. My main complaint with those two calibers is return to battery..Wouldn't own one..

 

[Nhoro]

Coincidentally, I just tested an original, period correct example of WDM Bell's favorite bullet for elephant- the round nose, 7mm 173 gr DWM nickel plated, thick jacketed lead core "solid" in wet paper test media. At about 2250 fps impact velocity, the bullet did penetrate fairly deep but at the 25" mark it turned sideways as it lost stability?? and did veer off course at a slight angle penetrating to about 42". Not bad considering most all modern expanding soft points (like TSXs and A Frames) out of 30, 338, 375 and 416 cal only make it to a max depth ranging between about 15" and 20" in the same media.

Interesting, as I remember from his book, he only did brain shots with the 7mm. I recall from the other thread 'flat vs round nose' that round nose penetrate bone relatively well but not tissue ? So maybe that is why it worked for him ?

The only time I witnessed the failure of a DG type bullet was a 300 gr lead core jacketed "solid" type out of a 375 HH that apparently ? veered off course after hitting a cape buffalo in the chest- facing angle. An experienced but indifferent hunter with lots of $ was later successful on another buffalo after losing that buffalo... in spite of a great effort by the trackers to find it. The bullet likely hit just off center of the chest and veered off track- missing the heart/lungs/vitals. That shot angle carries a well known risk as the shoulders and ribs of Cape buffalo form a type of interlocking shield plate- visible if their anatomy is studied in detail. Likely also, but no one will never know for certain of course, that a modern, flat point monolithic would have tracked true into the vitals at that angle.

I just read an article, I think it may have been by Gunyana ? about how survivable holes through the heart and lungs were for big game animals. So that bullet may have narrowly missed the heart and simply not done enough damage to put the animal down. He was actually saying that solids were not the best for first shot on a buffalo in the article precisely because of similar situations. He also said round nose solids make a smaller than caliber hole through flesh and organs- suggesting maybe your friends 375 made a .25 hole through the heart and maybe a lung-just wasn't enough ?

 

[Major Khan]

Interesting, as I remember from his book, he only did brain shots with the 7mm. I recall from the other thread 'flat vs round nose' that round nose penetrate bone relatively well but not tissue ? So maybe that is why it worked for him ?



I just read an article, I think it may have been by Gunyana ? about how survivable holes through the heart and lungs were for big game animals. So that bullet may have narrowly missed the heart and simply not done enough damage to put the animal down. He was actually saying that solids were not the best for first shot on a buffalo in the article precisely because of similar situations. He also said round nose solids make a smaller than caliber hole through flesh and organs- suggesting maybe your friends 375 made a .25 hole through the heart and maybe a lung-just wasn't enough ?

Perhaps I may be able to offer you some insight on this matter , Nhoro . For the sake of comparison , I am going to compare our Indian Gaur bison with your African Cape Buffalo . Even though they are different creatures , I do believe that the principles are similar . You see , the 300 grain .375 caliber bullet has excellent penetration . However , it makes for an extremely minute hole in the heart , lungs or any other vital organs of the gaur . Thus , wound cavities of sufficient size are not punched into the brute . A Gaur which has been shot through the heart with 300 grain .375 caliber solid metal covered bullets , can continue to live for upwards of half an hour . During this time , they can be a living nightmare for the shikaree to have to contend with . Especially , should they decide to charge you . If they manage to escape after getting wounded in this manner , then get ready for an extremely long and tiring tracking task . The longest period of time that I have ever had to pursue a wounded Gaur ( Which was shot through the heart with 300 grain .375 caliber solid metal covered bullets ) , was just above nine hours .

Of course , a Gaur weighs upwards of 3000 pounds ( Roughly double of what an African Cape Buffalo weighs ) . How ever , I do believe that the comparison is fair .

 

[Nhoro]

Thanks Major Khan-basicall backing up what I had read