Discussion in 'Firearms & Ammunition' started by dylanfoster1919, Feb 8, 2019.
Will the Woodleigh hold together on impact at those velocities????
Hmmm, the quest for instant collapse...
Welcome to the madhouse dylanfoster1919, where the inmates are unreserved in their candor and good will, and give you exactly what you ask: their honest opinion based on, often, considerable experience...
The only rationale for the 30-378 is to "dramatically" extend the MPBR (maximum point blank range) of the .300. Note that I use quotes around the word "dramatically" because this is what unknowing nimrods think: "it will extend the MPBR dramatically."
Well, if you happen to care about facts:
the MPBR of the .300 Win Mag 180 gr @ 3,070 fps is 303 yd;
the MPBR of the .300 Wby Mag and RUM 180 gr @ 3,250 fps is 320 yd;
the MPBR of the .30-378 Wby Mag 180 gr @ 3,420 fps is 336 yd.
In so many words, the "dramatic" improvement of MPBR of the 30-378 over the .300 Win Mag is ... a whopping 33 yd, and a mere 16 yd over the .300 Wby/RUM; itself a mere 17 yd over the .300 Win Mag. I suspect that a number of folks who own a .300 Wby / RUM may have made a different purchase decision had they been made to understand this cold fact. I would possibly be one of them, had I been a bit more analytical and a bit less sentimental when I bought mine... The Wby/RUM ain't getting "another 100 yd" as the salesman is bellowing
And, of course, since there ain't no free lunch, the price you pay for these 36 yd is a cool doubling of the recoil (never mind the noise) from a quite bearable 26 ft/lbs for a 8.5 lbs .300 Win Mag to a shocking (for a .30 cal) 48 ft/lbs. The choir should start the African Weatherby saga about clients unable to shoot monster recoil Mark Vs about ... right now
As to whether a 30-378 Wby will kill faster than the .300 Wby / RUM or .300 Win Mag? Well, likely not...
As Erik said, a hit at the central nervous system (CNS) = lights out DRT (dead right there). Period.
A hit at the precise moment in the cardiac systolic cycle when all the valves are opened just so and the hydrodynamic shock flows through the veins and arteries all the way to the brain = lights out DRT (dead right there). Period. This is the beauty, and randomness, of "speed kills."
A hit in the heart with about any caliber at about any speed, up to and including 20 mm Oerlikon I would wager (OK, I am exaggerating a bit, but you get my drift) = mad dash (assuming the skeleton is reasonably intact) until the blood flow to the brain runs out (looks like 10 to 20 seconds is fairly common).
A double lung hit = in general less of a reaction than with a heart shot, all the way to a total absence of reaction, until the blood flow to the brain runs out (looks like up to a minute is fairly common).
If the objective is instant collapse, short of a head or spine shot, in my experience the hydrodynamic shock is totally unpredictable, and it is not connected to the hyper speed of a cartridge (assuming a minimum speed). The most spectacular I had was with a .270 Win 150 gr that must have been cruising at about 2,500 fps at about 150 yd when it hit. Conversely, I have hit a number of American, European, African game in the right places with bullets flying well above 3,000 fps without any noticeable "lightning bolt effect," excepted a few times when I shot too high and hit the spine.
So, aside from spine/head shots and the random hydrodynamic shock, which the .300 Win Mag will give you, I do not believe that adding 400 fps to a .300 slug will change anything in term of instant collapse. For that matter, I am not sure that adding 1,000 fps would change much either, except probably a dramatic (this time I am not using quotes ) increase of bullet failures...
250-3000AI?.........257 Roberts?........... 25-06?......…257 Weatherby?
Please point out what dramatic improvement goes on here?
surely the heaviest barnesx in this calibre would do the job well.
if it happened to go right through that would not be an issue?
Might as well just use a 180 gr Woodleigh Hydrostatic solid then...
Brass will stand up better than copper and being non expanding no chance of loosing petals. It will in all probability not result in a slam dunk kill. Unless spine or brain is hit, African plains game invariably do not drop on the spot.
Personally I have no idea why someone would want to use a 30-378 or a 378 Weatherby when you have one of the perfect large plains game calibers already, 300 WM with 200 gr premium grade bullets are all you will ever need all the way up to eland and giraffe. You need nothing more even out to 300 yards which will be a rare distance to shoot kudu and sable.....
You could consider the Cutting Edge Safari Raptor. Speed will not affect it in a negative way.
Between the 30-378 and the 300WM I'd go with the 300 WM and 165 or 180 gr Barnes TTSX.
But if you're set on using the 30-378 look into Peregrine bullets. The Bushmaster in 200 grain would work well for that rifle and those ranges.
Swift A-Frames or Barnes TTSX bullets put those soft, former match, type bullets wrongly rebranded into hunting bullets to shame. There are a few other tuff bullets out there that would also be suitable. You will need a tuff bullet with the speeds that Weatherby goes. I used Swift A-Frames and Barnes TTSX in my 257W last trip and they worked very well. The Swift A-Frames worked great in my 338win mag both trips. No wounded animals and no bullet failures with many animals shot.
Good to see you Von S. I noted that you had been quite absent from the forum recently. I hope everything is going fine for you
Interestingly, the .25 cal is probably the one for which the Weatherby treatment makes the most sense:
the MPBR of the .257 Roberts 100 gr @ 3,000 fps is 286 yd; the Improved barely gets you an additional 10 yd.
the MPBR of the 25-06 100 gr @ 3,210 fps is 305 yd;
the MPBR of the .257 Wby Mag 100 gr @ 3,570 fps is 337 yd.
So, the Wby gives you a 51 yd longer MPBR over the Roberts. I would say that this starts to be significant. Interestingly, please note that the 30-378 has the same MPBR as the .257 Wby - not a bad performance for almost doubling the weight of the slug from 100 gr to 180 gr !!!
But to me, what makes the .257 Wby shine, and what really differentiates it from the rest of the Wby family (certainly including the 30-378) is that the gain in speed/performance/MPBR (however we want to describe it) is NOT accomplished at the price of a jump in recoil so substantial that most -- a few, you Von S. first and foremost, excluded -- start having difficulties controlling recoil effectively enough to still shoot the rifle accurately. The Roberts 100 gr has virtually no recoil (9 ft/lbs in a 8 lbs rifle); the 25-06 barely more with 11 ft/lbs; and the .257 Wby still only 15 ft/lbs in a factory Mark V. Anyone can shoot a .257 Wby accurately... Is all this why it was Roy's personal favorite? Who knows...
I was going to abound on IvW's side of the argument and comment to bruce moulds that at the 30-378 speed up close (3,400 fps) the Barnes will probably shed its petals, hence it will likely become a solid after shedding 25% of its mass... ...but then upon further thinking, I had the good sense to remember that the .257 Wby 100 gr TTSX flies at 3,570 fps and does very fine, thank you very much, up close including in tough game. There is an endless collection of pictures on various blogs of 100 gr TTSX propelled at blistering speed out of a .257 Wby pipe that blossomed beautifully and retained all 4 petals after colliding with devastating effect at 50 to 100 yd into wild hogs, black bears, etc. not to mention at any distance with deer, antelope (Pronghorn), etc... or even elk...
So probably the Barnes TTSX will do just fine in the 30-378. After all Weatherby offer both the 165 gr and 180 gr in factory loading at 3,450 and 3,350 fps, and I doubt that they do it at random... Will they automatically cause lighting-bolt instant collapse on heart or double lungs shots? I do not know, but I doubt it (see earlier post)...
Interestingly, I will be in Africa again for 12 days from July 7 to 19 and I will be using the .257 Wby 100 gr TTSX on Nyala, Tsessebe, Lechwe, Bushbuck, Impala, Vaal Rhebok, Common Reedbuck, etc. I will be very attentive to note the effect and will report...
I also have Sable and Roan on the list, but I am going to play it safe and use the .340 Wby 225 gr TTSX. I did not get instant collapse on any of the 21 animals I shot with it last year with 250 gr Nosler Partition, although 19 of them were hit in the right places and only two were poorly shot (but not lost), and I doubt that the results will be different this year...
300WM good for Eland also. As typically happens in Africa, I encountered an Eland unexpectedly while looking for other game. Shot the eland at 250 yards w/ 300WM w/ 180 grain Barnes Vortex bullet - quartering away (so angled shot). The eland ran 80-100 yards before expiring.
if a barnesx will shed its petals, imagine how useless a nosler partition would be.
there exists a 200 gn barnesx which would be a little slower than a 180.
i did some quick figuring, (had to take my shoes and socks off to get it right) and what i come up with from the above info, that for every 100 fps (approx) one gains about 10 yards on MPBR.
in heavier calibers the price in recoil, muzzle blast and appropriate bullet choices might make the super magnums less attractive.
A good answer "one day" and exactly what I expected.
If one Weatherby round is good then they are all good as they were designed the same way, just with different diameters and weights to take on different size animals.
Bullet failure........I sometimes believe that a few melodramatic babblers here have skirt hiking, leg wetting, nightmares of how just about every bullet made will upon impact with the first hair on a hare will turn into extra soft marshmallow and not penatrate due to " bullet failure".
After loading for over 50 years I have come to the realization that the reason why 99.9% of all game lost is due to " shooter failure" and not much else. And of course.....when the dummy with the gun can't miracle some poor stupid animal into taking a nosedive when his gun goes bang out comes the excuses.
The op seems like a nice guy and in posts #2 and #5 I made a attempt to see where he is coming from and offer some constructive advice to him.
It appears that some people here are of the belief that for some contrived reason that they are the first, the last, and the only word in what you should buy, use, think and say when it comes to do with anything about firearms.
God bless um.....
A fella started a topic a few months back about how stupid it was for anyone to shoot a deer with a Magnum caliber when the only thing needed was a 308.
Well....for the most part he was right, but what the hell does he or anyone else care what anyone shoots anything with? It's a personal choice.....just like guys who choose to hang out with fat chicks.
I have heard some real ph's say how they recommend the Accubond for killing the great cats as well das pg. Yet one fella doesn't recommend them for anything. Nosler does and after being in the business for so long I am sure they know quite a bit........as does Weatherby.
I have no dislike for any caliber or rifle for any reason as I feel that they all have their place in the grand scheme of things.
The op wants everything he shoots to dead in it's tracks. A noble and very wise thing to do. But if that is the case then anyone who has really killed many different animals instead of watching you-tube about killing animals will tell you that the only way to kill them and make them stay in one spot is to blow their brains out...no ifs ,ands or buts.
And if you can't....then you will get what you get
I go by the Bigger, badder, faster thought when it comes to killing animals....kinds like what the NFL does when it drafts players. The best team from the 50' s would get it's ass handed to them by the worst football team today just because of that reason.
As I have said on numerous occasions for numerously different reasons....." The 375 H&H Magnum is the finest one round hunting instrument for everything on the continent of Africa".
But like I said that there are many different reasons for saying that.
The "Queen of the medium bores"... A phrase coined by Jack O'connor ....is at best the absolute minimum for dg and is by no means a " stopper" by anyone who knows what they are talking about. It really does nothing wrong, but on the other hand it doesn't do much on the spectacular level either.
I would say that it's best attribute is that it gives the recoil shy a chance at hitting dg.....with a back up carrying a larger and appropriately more powerful rifle.....and taking home a cape' s head and a few " big bwanna glory shots".....especially the ones where bwanna is many feet behind said dead cow sized creature to make it look bigger than it is. Hey! Good for them....it's their money and their time.
Of course I always preferred my loin cloth/ sunglass/ spear pose with topless native girls myself.
I prefer the " King of medium bores" , the 378 Weatherby Magnum, which is very much more powerful, but yet I will not use it on dg as if you talk the talk, you better walk the walk. I believe that 45 caliber plus is the way to go.
I have a few 416s, but they like to be looked at and admired more then get carried about and scratched.
The 30-378 was developed at the governments request as a lightweight weapon to take out small high value targets like jet aircraft engines. It well exceeded the government specs and can exceed the 5000 fps max imposed.
It did catch on with long distance shooters and hunters because it is very good at what it does.....like all Weatherby rounds.
The 30-378 will exceed the excellence of all rounds before them by people who truly understand ballistics and are highly talented marksmen.
Like you...."one day"
Yep, like the .338 Lapua (which, by the way, shares the exact same ballistics with the .340 Wby and is dwarfed by the 338-378 ;-) the 30-378 is probably a perfect example of a round for which the hunter's MPBR method is ill adapted.
It carries the mail far enough and fast enough that, truly, it begs adjustable turrets and prone shooting off the bipod with a can, or at least a brake, rather than upright shooting off the sticks, and it is more adapted to 800 yd sniping than 300 yd hunting. The proliferation of inexpensive but accurate laser rangefinders and iPhone ballistics apps having contributed enormously to the former starting to invade the later, I am not surprised to see the mega .300 bee making inroads in Africa. Not my cup of tea for THAT application to be honest, I would rather hunt closer than snipe farther, but to each their own. Jut don't litter the landscape with cripples or lost carcasses please.
Nonetheless, the way I look at things, if this is what floats dylanfoster1919's boat, it is all good with me, as long as he gets into it with both eyes wide open, which is, I think, what we are trying to help folks do on africahunting.com when they have questions. My focus was to address the DRT (dead right there) part of the discussion and I am not surprised that we agree
Bottom line: if DRT at 300 yd is the motivation for shifting from .300 Win Mag to the 30-378 Wby, it is probably misguided. The 30-378 is unlikely to deliver more than the .300 Win Mag does at that distance and for that specific purpose, which is likely why the community is generally not jumping on board enthusiastically
As I don't take out high value jet aircraft engines on a regular bases I will rather refrain from replying....
@dylanfoster1919 good luck with your choice of caliber and I hope sanity prevails. All the best on your hunt and send us a report.
Good Brother One Day, a
Quit being a politician and spit out the truth.....
You use a Weatherby round because all others pale by comparison...
A kill shot at 500 yards or better is something to be extremely proud of. Some may call it sniping as to almost come out and insult the maker of a fine long distance kill shot and back pat and belly rub some doofuss who misses once, gut shoots once and blows the leg off an animal and all with 30 yards and is eventually blown to pieces by anyone and everyone with a gun.
As you well know....long range hunting and one shot killing is a commitment that will more than consume ones time, talent,and money and guys who don't completely commit should never attempt it as the failure rate is extremely high for the talentless or slack jawed pogues who think that the weapon will do all the killing by itself.
But we do have our newest bestest buddy " Dylan" to think about and his desire to give African pg one hell of a big what-fer with his extremely well made and ultra powerful 30- 378 that pretty much well has no factory rolled equals.
At 0 to 200 yards the insides of your common back yard variety of white tail deer's internal organs get ground up and vaporized with a 150 grain Nosler Partition. Did the bullet fail? How would I know? There was a giant hole out the other side that look like it was cut with a chain saw. So even if it did blow apart ....all the parts and what they grabbed onto left also. At 100 yards or closer it looked the same.. so even if it "failed" it failed in favor of the hunter and nothing took a step.
The 210 Accu LR was used on Caribou out to 700 yards and even at the the chest shots gave up no mushroomed bullets to oooooh! And aaaaah! At as the busted through with major league damage.
But ! A moose......a great big moose that my friend shot at 500 which went diagonally took out the organs and became part of the moose's ass in the end with wonderful expansion and massive tissue damage. One brown bear met his end at 200 with a chest pass through and major damage...he went about 10 yards before he nose dived.
But as the Brownie is a mean mother that 10 yards means a lot if you are 8 yards away, so a 45 caliber or bigger is more appropriate.
Now if Dylan will tell us what optics he has and just how good of a shot he really is I am sure that he will get all the help from everyone that he will ever need to be successful in his new adventures.
As for you "Mister One Day" , I am sure you can get out the slide rule and come up with a bullet that would be better than what I have offered.
1919..........A local hunter and wildcatter uses a large .30 that he calls "the 30 super-A". He uses 168 TTSX bullets at an ave vel of 3784fps. This is even a little faster than I see published for the 30-378. I have seen 3 recovered bullets in the last 5 years. Even the one that lost its petals on the shoulder of a bull elk at 130 yards had good penetration....the shank penetrating to the off side flank. Even though large magnums are not for me, I think you will do fine with a new mono-metal bullet.......be sure to give us a report............good hunting....................FWB
On the 30-378 i have a leupold vx6 4-24 and on my 458 i have a leupold vx6 1-6. As far as how good of a shot i am id say pretty good. I have a 1000 yard range on my farm that i spend most of my free time at. But theres always more to learn.
You are the the only other guy I know who has a K-Range....the other unfortunately passed away last year.
I like your gear so far and if you can shoot with sticks and all position you are pretty much good to go.
What make 458 do you have? I am a big fan of the 458 and it has never disappointed me in the least. And when loaded correctly it nicely takes out everything in the world.
Its a cz 550. Its nothing special but it'll get the job done
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