Beretta Silver Sable II opinions?

[sierraone]

Siarraone it took while to see your message within the quote - ( perhaps it would be better to type a comment outside the quotation?) "half of the guns listed on Armslist are scams from other sites. I tried to used them twice back 2-3 years ago. Both times what I was responding to were POS scammers! "

I have made over 100 transactions on Canadian Gun Nutz and have never experienced a dishonest deal. Returned two items for flaws that were not disclosed, accepted one item that was not properly described, and that is the worst of it. Armslist should be avoided it seems. Perhaps there is a difference in the online buy-sell culture between the USA and Canada, but in any case I'm going to be somewhat more cautious in the future.

In both of my cases, I was able to determine it was a scam before making a deal. I did this 1. by having the seller meet me on a Bass Pro parking lot. He was supposedly on 50 miles from me. 2. By letting me use an FFL holder in his city confirm the attributes of the rifle. I believe he was allegedly in Ohio. Maybe I was just unlucky, but I don't and haven't looked at their site since then to even see what's for sell.

 

[Longwalker]

I received the rifle yesterday, and have a dilemma. It is perfect in every way except one. I love the fit and handling, wood and engraving is excellent. Triggers are good, sights Ok and ejectors are even timed the same. The compact travel sale is very nice. The S&B scope is amazing, best I've ever used and the scope is mounted low enough that it allows a firm cheek placement on the stock. I shot it with iron sights at 100 yards, two quick shots, one lower and one upper, check target and let barrels cool, repeat. I could cover 5 shots - 3 from lower, two from upper, with my hand. About as good as I can do by holding the rifle in my hands with wrists resting on the sand bags and with my less than perfect vision with open sights.
Now the problem. I put the scope on, and the groups from each barrel are still reasonably OK, but the two barrels groups are far apart. Elbow to finger tip. Lower barrel shoots low, upper barrel high. I'm pretty certain it was never regulated at the factory with a scope installed.
So what now? I can return the rifle for a full refund to the seller, but would rather have it shoot well and use it. Can these rifles be re-regulated? It still has some of the wedge sticking out between the barrels, I assume to allow future adjustment. Is regulation done by Beretta in Italy only? Any good gunsmiths in Canada that could do this?

 

[Longwalker]

Iron sight group on the bigger black target, perhaps 10CM or 4" - not too bad for me. I shot several groups with the scope on, they all looked like the one on the right. These pictures uploaded sideways for some reason.

 

[fsrmg1]

I'm sure it was regulated, but for what load? I have a mate who has one regulated for the Norma 232 gr loads, and for what he shoots that is fine for him. Out of curiosity he shot some S&B 286 gr loads and it shot apart the same as yours did. Try a light projectile going faster and see what happens.

 

[Red Leg]

Welcome to the wonderful world of double rifles! It is the ammo - not the rifle. From past experience, it is impossible to determine what ammunition Berretta used during regulation (they maintain no accessible records). That means you are beginning what is usually a trying period of discovery to determine what will regulate in your rifle. My S2 Blaser was shooting beautifully on the third 300 gr load that we tried. My pre-war 9.3 took six-months and probably two dozen different loadings. I have a double rifle drilling (9.3x9.3x16) that is still shooting patterns rather than groups after two years. It is a fine madness.

An alternative is to find a load which shoots MOA from each barrel and then reregulate to that load. A gun maker will charge you something approaching half the cost of your rifle for that work. I know exactly one person in North America who I would trust to do it. Almost always better and cheaper to develop a load which regulates.

 

[Longwalker]

I do have the test target that the rifle was regulated with, Sako Hammerhead 286 gr. /18.5 gm. The ammunition I had available for testing was RWS in the 285 gr. bullet weight. Manufacturers specifications show 25 M/S slower velocity for the RWS. A difference, but not a large difference. The rifle shot almost as good as I can aim with the iron sights. I'm thinking it is the weight of the scope that is making the rifle shoot a vertical string of shots with the scope mounted. So my question is: Is it reasonable to expect that a rifle regulated with iron sights can be regulated by using different ammunition with a scope attached?

 

[fsrmg1]

I suppose the scope weight would make a difference, especially as its weight goes up. How you hold it while shooting can also make a difference. Stock design can also magnifying these if it has too much drop. Mine is the Bavarian style and fits like a glove. But when I sight her in, I only use a field position held firmly as I would in the field. With double rifles a consistent hold is necessary for consistent grouping. Too loose, too ridged or too inconsistent a hold can and will affect regulation.

I use a light weight compact red dot scope on mine with EAW mounts and have no trouble at all with regulation on or off. I'm able to pull it off and put it back on easily and it holds the same zero.

 

[Red Leg]

Scope might do it - but different bullets of the same weight can shoot radically differently (even different lot numbers from the same manufacturer!) - even when muzzle velocities are the same or nearly so - different powders, bullet bearing surfaces, etc. etc. And of course, scope aiming accuracy will accentuate any lack of regulation. I assume the targets were fired at the same distance - scoped and open sights?

Having the original test target is fabulous luck. I would move heaven and earth to find those Sako rounds.

The three double rifles that I currently own and use (not counting the double rifle drilling for the moment) are all scoped. Two easily shoot sub-three-inch four shot groups (L/RxL/R) at 100 meters. Both shoot tighter than I can hold at 50 with open sights. The other rifle was designed to put the first shot on target at 100 meters and the second barrel on target at 200 meters from the same aiming point (damn clever Germans - but gave me fits trying to "regulate" it for a long time.)

Develop a load it likes with the scope in place, and I am certain you will be minute of anything with open sights as far as you can effectively shoot.

 

[Longwalker]

Here are my targets from this afternoon, all with scope attached, all show the same wide dispersion, regardless of bullet weight 220 grain, 232 grain, 285 grain / or velocity.

 

[Red Leg]

I am intrigued by the 220 grain load. Your "T" barrel seems to be inherently accurate so that wide vertical distribution of the 220's seems odd. Why not try a three shot group with each barrel, allowing a bit of cooling between shots. Would let you know exactly where those 220's are really hitting. If still a mess, and you do not hand load, then the 232's seem a good choice for reregulation. Just make sure a true expert attempts the work. This is the only guy this side of the pond that I trust http://jjperodeau.com/ There may be an equally gifted craftsman in Canada, but I am unaware of him.

 

[Longwalker]

Thanks Red Leg! I had a very interesting and informative conversation with Mr. Perodeau on the telephone. He gave me some hope for load development, and also offered the cure of re-regulating the barrels with the ammunition of my choice. Good to know that such skill and experience is available if needed. So I negotiated a reduction in the price of the rifle and am satisfied that I have made a good choice whether it needs re-regulating or not.

 

[Odinsraven]

Longwalker.

If I were you I would request, from the dealer, that you be able to purchase a box of factory ammo for which they suggest to you that the rifle was regulated with at the factory and that you fire THE FULL BOX in order to get an average for 20 shots to check regulation.

I urge you to check regulation BEFORE dumping that kind of coin on a double.

Sir wisdom beyond your years - irrespective of how old you are