At what point/caliber is a recoil pad necessary vs a steel butt plate?

[Wildwillalaska]

Does anyone know if the Large bore double rifles of the early 20th century typically come with a recoil pad or just a buttplate? Something along the lines of 450,470,500,577?

There’s been more than a couple super gorgeous and high end doubles in 600NE that were made not only with steel butt plate, but high relief engraved ones. That said, most those rifles were like what you’d call Bar-B-Q gun in custom revolver world. Mostly for show, or more horse than cattle so to speak. Drop dead gorgeous, but less functional.

I share concerns some others have raised here. What you are making will almost certainly look lovely at first blush. Lots a sparkle and bling, but for most practical purposes fear you may run into many of the options you are adding causing more design and handling flaws. Even multiple barrels run into weight and balance issues on doubles. You see a reasonable number of 2 barrel sets but rarely 3 unless one of them is a shotgun. It’s just hard to get the balance necessary for proper handling with that many different calibers.

Bradshaw makes a pretty rifle for sure, but it’s turning into a huge cluster of options and barrels where it seems increasingly likely to prove a giant pile of money with less functionality. I so hope I’m wrong, as I wholeheartedly agree that hunting with a traditional double rifle carries so much nostalgia, enjoyment, and purpose built precision in its intended use…they are just so amazing when proper. They are also bottomless pits of disappointment and expense when not. If you’d run several doubles over half dozen or more safaris to know exactly what you like and what you didn’t, or had a historic gunmaker who possessed the artisans with decades and decades of trial and error experience of customer’s more unique and at times even improper dream sheets to advise what works and what really wouldn’t, I’d worry less.

Hoping this turns out amazing, rifle of your absolute dreams in both its beauty, function and accuracy. But as mentioned above, Swiss Army knives are not always known for their precision, durability and balance…more the contrary on all fronts.

Sincerely and truly wishing you the best and only hope I prove an unnecessarily worrisome rain cloud on your parade.

 

[Tdsmith517]

There’s been more than a couple super gorgeous and high end doubles in 600NE that were made not only with steel butt plate, but high relief engraved ones. That said, most those rifles were like what you’d call Bar-B-Q gun in custom revolver world. Mostly for show, or more horse than cattle so to speak. Drop dead gorgeous, but less functional.

I share concerns some others have raised here. What you are making will almost certainly look lovely at first blush. Lots a sparkle and bling, but for most practical purposes fear you may run into many of the options you are adding causing more design and handling flaws. Even multiple barrels run into weight and balance issues on doubles. You see a reasonable number of 2 barrel sets but rarely 3 unless one of them is a shotgun. It’s just hard to get the balance necessary for proper handling with that many different calibers.

Bradshaw makes a pretty rifle for sure, but it’s turning into a huge cluster of options and barrels where it seems increasingly likely to prove a giant pile of money with less functionality. I so hope I’m wrong, as I wholeheartedly agree that hunting with a traditional double rifle carries so much nostalgia, enjoyment, and purpose built precision in its intended use…they are just so amazing when proper. They are also bottomless pits of disappointment and expense when not. If you’d run several doubles over half dozen or more safaris to know exactly what you like and what you didn’t, or had a historic gunmaker who possessed the artisans with decades and decades of trial and error experience of customer’s more unique and at times even improper dream sheets to advise what works and what really wouldn’t, I’d worry less.

Hoping this turns out amazing, rifle of your absolute dreams in both its beauty, function and accuracy. But as mentioned above, Swiss Army knives are not always known for their precision, durability and balance…more the contrary on all fronts.

Sincerely and truly wishing you the best and only hope I prove an unnecessarily worrisome rain cloud on your parade.

I think your concerns are incredibly valid and should be noted.

 

[Noah Hutchens]

There’s been more than a couple super gorgeous and high end doubles in 600NE that were made not only with steel butt plate, but high relief engraved ones. That said, most those rifles were like what you’d call Bar-B-Q gun in custom revolver world. Mostly for show, or more horse than cattle so to speak. Drop dead gorgeous, but less functional.

I share concerns some others have raised here. What you are making will almost certainly look lovely at first blush. Lots a sparkle and bling, but for most practical purposes fear you may run into many of the options you are adding causing more design and handling flaws. Even multiple barrels run into weight and balance issues on doubles. You see a reasonable number of 2 barrel sets but rarely 3 unless one of them is a shotgun. It’s just hard to get the balance necessary for proper handling with that many different calibers.

Bradshaw makes a pretty rifle for sure, but it’s turning into a huge cluster of options and barrels where it seems increasingly likely to prove a giant pile of money with less functionality. I so hope I’m wrong, as I wholeheartedly agree that hunting with a traditional double rifle carries so much nostalgia, enjoyment, and purpose built precision in its intended use…they are just so amazing when proper. They are also bottomless pits of disappointment and expense when not. If you’d run several doubles over half dozen or more safaris to know exactly what you like and what you didn’t, or had a historic gunmaker who possessed the artisans with decades and decades of trial and error experience of customer’s more unique and at times even improper dream sheets to advise what works and what really wouldn’t, I’d worry less.

Hoping this turns out amazing, rifle of your absolute dreams in both its beauty, function and accuracy. But as mentioned above, Swiss Army knives are not always known for their precision, durability and balance…more the contrary on all fronts.

Sincerely and truly wishing you the best and only hope I prove an unnecessarily worrisome rain cloud on your parade.

Thank you I really do appreciate the advice.

I will say that Mr Bradshaw has talked me out of some of my wishlist items, he has been really upfront and blunt and honest to me about the practicality/realisticness(is that a word?) of the things I’ve asked for. Some of them I have done away with but others I have kept even if they aren’t the most practical or useful for no real purpose other than I think it is fun and presents a great value. Mr Bradshaw has even convinced me to do away with some items that I’m sure were really high margin on his end out of practicality and cost effectiveness, which I do admire and appreciate because it just really meant profit out of his pocket, so I do trust him fully to give me the most sound advice he can.

The “must have” list for me is rather short, mostly just the ghost ring rear sight, crossbolt in the stock and 500 NE+20 gauge barrels.

The rest I’m adding because I truly feel like the value is extremely high when considering the actual cost of adding them, such as the 450/400 or 500/416 barrels that will be scoped and will make the rifle useful for a wider variety of game(in my head). I will quickly admit that the 470 barrel set will be practically “useless” sitting next to the other options, but again, I included it because I felt that if I ever wanted to acquire one and shoot one in the future this would be by far the most cost effective way of doing it.

The rest of the options I added are visual and have no effect on the handling or function. Just looks/esthetics.

 

[jruby]

I had a mint ( collector grade ) remington model 30 in 30-06. I had a metal crescent butt plate. It was no fun to shoot. I let it go on down the road. Really qas a beautiful rifle. No more metal butt plates for me.

 

[318AE]

I’m assuming your son is currently a child, and not an adult.

If you asked this question as “would you recommend a steel butt plate 375 for a youth” (which I think is really the question now that you have chosen to forego a steel butt plate for the 500 NE) you would likely get clearer and more specific answers.

In my experience, as a father and NRA certified class C rifle coach, you really want the most pleasant rifle to shoot for a youth, to both avoid developing a flinch, and to just make sure its fun. Any 375 alone is a tall order. A member here did some special light load development in a magazine rifle to have his son shoot a 375. That endeavor is much more difficult to do in a double rifle due to its regulation.

The silvers pad was introduced before smokeless powder, and really is the authentic, original vintage double rifle pad. It’s available in different lengths, giving you roughly 1/2” to 3/4” of wiggle room in adjusting the LOP as he ages, and having it still look right. Swapping them out can be done by any gunsmith with a fixture and belt sander for about an hour of labor. With a cartridge trap, you’ll be left with all kinds of holes and voids in your butt stock, that will inevitably be where the screws for a pad will need to be, should you choose to change. How do you even know what LOP will fit him when he is grown?

A silvers pad really is a superior choice, in every single way. A steel cartridge trap 375 just seems like an avoidable source of father-son frustration. I hope you enjoy your doubles.

 

[Noah Hutchens]

I’m assuming your son is currently a child, and not an adult.

If you asked this question as “would you recommend a steel butt plate 375 for a youth” (which I think is really the question now that you have chosen to forego a steel butt plate for the 500 NE) you would likely get clearer and more specific answers.

In my experience, as a father and NRA certified class C rifle coach, you really want the most pleasant rifle to shoot for a youth, to both avoid developing a flinch, and to just make sure its fun. Any 375 alone is a tall order. A member here did some special light load development in a magazine rifle to have his son shoot a 375. That endeavor is much more difficult to do in a double rifle due to its regulation.

The silvers pad was introduced before smokeless powder, and really is the authentic, original vintage double rifle pad. It’s available in different lengths, giving you roughly 1/2” to 3/4” of wiggle room in adjusting the LOP as he ages, and having it still look right. Swapping them out can be done by any gunsmith with a fixture and belt sander for about an hour of labor. With a cartridge trap, you’ll be left with all kinds of holes and voids in your butt stock, that will inevitably be where the screws for a pad will need to be, should you choose to change. How do you even know what LOP will fit him when he is grown?

A silvers pad really is a superior choice, in every single way. A steel cartridge trap 375 just seems like an avoidable source of father-son frustration. I hope you enjoy your doubles.

The rifle is indeed a 375 Flanged, however it will have barrels in 7x57r and 28Guage. Really as a youth I’m only going to have him shoot two smaller barrels. The 375 is for the future when he more grown and able to take larger game such as his first Buffalo, I wouldn’t have him shoot it until he’s much older. I will add that I am having a second youth sized stock made for that rifle so he can learn to shoot it and then upgrade to the larger full sized stock when he gets older. I discussed the possible fitment issue with Mr Bradshaw and he said that even with the cartridge trap installed any competent stock maker could shorten the LOP. With that in mind we were going to have the stock made to match my size for now which is 14.5 and see from there in the future.

 

[Tanks]

I have a recoil pad on my .500 NE Shikari. When I was practicing before my hunt I called it the day after my 21st round, and I think I have a decent technique. I didn’t want to have a bruise.

I think without the pad the session might have been shorter.

 

[Wildwillalaska]

I’d personally forgo the cartridge trapdoor in the butt, especially if it’s in the butt plate with rounds facing forward. On larger magnums, crimps only hold so long. I always test them on my 450, 500, 505, as I want to make sure they can withstand 2-3 firings without letting the bullets nose forward (which is the direction on a double, or in the buttstock facing forward) or get pushed back from contact with the front of the magazine. Having rounds in the stock just seems a recipe for disappointment/trouble…increasingly for the longer they are in there.

On your multibarrels, some with scopes and some not, that certainly opens options, but not as many as having just two separate doubles, which invariably one tracker can carry. If you roll with a big double but have some cool smaller species on your wish list, one tracker will often act as a gun bearer when tracking primary dangerous game.

Last October I took my 450NE and 416 Rigby BGR to Zim. I used the Rigby on my croc for its precision and on one warthog. A tracker carried it most days, but used my 450NE for everything else from buff, couple hippo, warthog and even a little bushbuck at 87 yards. Having an extra barrel back at camp or even in the truck doesn’t help much…no where near as having it assembled and ready to go. I think most dangerous game safaris, not a bad idea to have a big and littleler (like the word) gun handy. In April when I returned to Zim and then Botswana I only brought my 450NE with bare iron sights which I was only looking for elephant and maybe a buff…but I’d have checked off a couple three of the tiny 10 if I’d had a scoped littleler rifle along.

So when I head back in just over 4-weeks, I’m following my own advise. Bringing a big one, a 500NE (not sure yet if I’ll use the RMR or run open) and a scoped 375 Flanged Mag. Hoping to get the chance to use the flanged on a cat and maybe a tiny or two.

 

[Tdsmith517]

I feel like a 10 pound double rifle might not be the best youth rifle…

 

[Wildwillalaska]

Thank you I really do appreciate the advice.

I will say that Mr Bradshaw has talked me out of some of my wishlist items, he has been really upfront and blunt and honest to me about the practicality/realisticness(is that a word?) of the things I’ve asked for. Some of them I have done away with but others I have kept even if they aren’t the most practical or useful for no real purpose other than I think it is fun and presents a great value. Mr Bradshaw has even convinced me to do away with some items that I’m sure were really high margin on his end out of practicality and cost effectiveness, which I do admire and appreciate because it just really meant profit out of his pocket, so I do trust him fully to give me the most sound advice he can.

The “must have” list for me is rather short, mostly just the ghost ring rear sight, crossbolt in the stock and 500 NE+20 gauge barrels.

The rest I’m adding because I truly feel like the value is extremely high when considering the actual cost of adding them, such as the 450/400 or 500/416 barrels that will be scoped and will make the rifle useful for a wider variety of game(in my head). I will quickly admit that the 470 barrel set will be practically “useless” sitting next to the other options, but again, I included it because I felt that if I ever wanted to acquire one and shoot one in the future this would be by far the most cost effective way of doing it.

The rest of the options I added are visual and have no effect on the handling or function. Just looks/esthetics.

And Noah please know I am in no way trying to pee on your parade or stifle dreams. I truly respect and actually love the fact that tastes in the world vary and whatever one person wants to build and spend their funds on, be is a classic car, watch, guns, hell even Pokémon cards…please have at it. I only bring it up here because you are going all in without any idea what you will want in reality and some of what you settle on as the most cost effective way is truly the furthest from it. A set of extra 470 barrels just in the off chance you may some day want a set is not a cost effective way of having them, since if you don’t want them, no one else will either and they’ll just be a waste of space and money.

I think the absolute most cost effective way to decide if you are a 450/400 guy or a 470 guy or 500 guy, or even a true gentleman connoisseur and a 450NE guy is to buy a Kreighoff or Heym and go shoot it. Have a ball. Take it on safari even. Use that as a gauge whether you like doubles at all. If you do, what would you change or want different. Then source that, or have Bradshaw make you a falling/rising block version of it.

I say Kreighoff or Heym as both are easily marketed in a regularly seen chambering. The way Heyms have shot up in price, which K guns too, you could likely sell for as much or more than you paid for it/them. That would prove a true cost effective way to learn what you like or don’t. Honestly, with the questions you’ve posed over the past many weeks and money you are pouring in, likely smartest move is to buy a 500/416 K-Gun and then either a 450/400, 470 or 500 Heym. Or even arrange a play date, locally or anywhere in the country to go and shoot a few. If you stick to what others also want for your exploration/educational rifle, you’ll come out way, way better off.

Maybe ask how many folks here have lost a significant chunk of money on a Heym or K-Gun. I don’t think many.

 

[Noah Hutchens]

I’d personally forgo the cartridge trapdoor in the butt, especially if it’s in the butt plate with rounds facing forward. On larger magnums, crimps only hold so long. I always test them on my 450, 500, 505, as I want to make sure they can withstand 2-3 firings without letting the bullets nose forward (which is the direction on a double, or in the buttstock facing forward) or get pushed back from contact with the front of the magazine. Having rounds in the stock just seems a recipe for disappointment/trouble…increasingly for the longer they are in there.

On your multibarrels, some with scopes and some not, that certainly opens options, but not as many as having just two separate doubles, which invariably one tracker can carry. If you roll with a big double but have some cool smaller species on your wish list, one tracker will often act as a gun bearer when tracking primary dangerous game.

Last October I took my 450NE and 416 Rigby BGR to Zim. I used the Rigby on my croc for its precision and on one warthog. A tracker carried it most days, but used my 450NE for everything else from buff, couple hippo, warthog and even a little bushbuck at 87 yards. Having an extra barrel back at camp or even in the truck doesn’t help much…no where near as having it assembled and ready to go. I think most dangerous game safaris, not a bad idea to have a big and littleler (like the word) gun handy. In April when I returned to Zim and then Botswana I only brought my 450NE with bare iron sights which I was only looking for elephant and maybe a buff…but I’d have checked off a couple three of the tiny 10 if I’d had a scoped littleler rifle along.

So when I head back in just over 4-weeks, I’m following my own advise. Bringing a big one, a 500NE (not sure yet if I’ll use the RMR or run open) and a scoped 375 Flanged Mag. Hoping to get the chance to use the flanged on a cat and maybe a tiny or two. View attachment 790274

Nice case! What case is it and did you get custom foam or cut it all out precisely yourself?

 

[Noah Hutchens]

And Noah please know I am in no way trying to pee on your parade or stifle dreams. I truly respect and actually love the fact that tastes in the world vary and whatever one person wants to build and spend their funds on, be is a classic car, watch, guns, hell even Pokémon cards…please have at it. I only bring it up here because you are going all in without any idea what you will want in reality and some of what you settle on as the most cost effective way is truly the furthest from it. A set of extra 470 barrels just in the off chance you may some day want a set is not a cost effective way of having them, since if you don’t want them, no one else will either and they’ll just be a waste of space and money.

I think the absolute most cost effective way to decide if you are a 450/400 guy or a 470 guy or 500 guy, or even a true gentleman connoisseur and a 450NE guy is to buy a Kreighoff or Heym and go shoot it. Have a ball. Take it on safari even. Use that as a gauge whether you like doubles at all. If you do, what would you change or want different. Then source that, or have Bradshaw make you a falling/rising block version of it.

I say Kreighoff or Heym as both are easily marketed in a regularly seen chambering. The way Heyms have shot up in price, which K guns too, you could likely sell for as much or more than you paid for it/them. That would prove a true cost effective way to learn what you like or don’t. Honestly, with the questions you’ve posed over the past many weeks and money you are pouring in, likely smartest move is to buy a 500/416 K-Gun and then either a 450/400, 470 or 500 Heym. Or even arrange a play date, locally or anywhere in the country to go and shoot a few. If you stick to what others also want for your exploration/educational rifle, you’ll come out way, way better off.

Maybe ask how many folks here have lost a significant chunk of money on a Heym or K-Gun. I don’t think many.

I take no offense what so ever to yours or anyone else’s comments, if I was going to bent out of shape about it I wouldn’t have posted anything! I rather prefer to hear criticisms and comments, that’s why I ask for them!

I wouldn’t mind a Heym but based on the current quoted prices I have seen posted here plus the complaints about terrible customer service I am quite opposed. The rifle I would get from Mr Bradshaw is comparable or even slightly cheaper than the prices I’ve seen for the Heyms, and that’s with all the extras barrels, upgraded engraving and bells and whistles, with amazing customer service, shorter lead time, personal service and Made In the USA! Plus I get to drive down to his shop next month and hand pick my wood blanks and meet him and he’s going to show my his operation. I’m not sure if I could do that for Heym or Kriegoff(anyone know?) and even if I could I don’t want to fly to Germany for it!

Kriegoff is obviously a different story and would be cheaper and I wouldn’t be opposed to one but as I have said in either this thread or a different one (I don’t remember) i love the esthetics of the falling block(or “rising block” in this case). If I wanted to be more budget conscious I could get his base double rifle for a good bit less than the Kriegoff from the prices I’ve seen.

 

[318AE]

The rifle is indeed a 375 Flanged, however it will have barrels in 7x57r and 28Guage. Really as a youth I’m only going to have him shoot two smaller barrels. The 375 is for the future when he more grown and able to take larger game such as his first Buffalo, I wouldn’t have him shoot it until he’s much older. I will add that I am having a second youth sized stock made for that rifle so he can learn to shoot it and then upgrade to the larger full sized stock when he gets older. I discussed the possible fitment issue with Mr Bradshaw and he said that even with the cartridge trap installed any competent stock maker could shorten the LOP. With that in mind we were going to have the stock made to match my size for now which is 14.5 and see from there in the future.

Sounds like you have a great plan. I hope you have fun.

 

[Wildwillalaska]

That one is a Pelican 1720 and the insert is laser cut by Gunfoam. Wish I was so precise with my own foam craft. Not even close.

 

[Wildwillalaska]

Here’s what ya get if I build your custom foam inserts.

 

[Noah Hutchens]

That one is a Pelican 1720 and the insert is laser cut by Gunfoam. Wish I was so precise with my own foam craft. Not even close.

What’s the cost/process to get that done? Looks incredible

 

[Wildwillalaska]

What’s the cost/process to get that done? Looks incredible

Most reasonable for the Pelican 1720 (multiple doubles or barrels), 1700 (single double), or 1750, bolt gun or as in my thrown together version a bolt and double is Amazon. Usually around $265-$399 case size and if on sale.

Then the foam insert is easy enough, you measure and upload photos into the gunfoam.com website, arrange how you want, and then they will laser cut and ship right to you. Think the custom foam insert is around $200-ish, and takes about 2-4 weeks from order till delivery.

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

What did you do--hand him a 9.5 caliber?

Yes, A Mannlicher Schoenauer M1910 Take Down Model.

Not a terribly 'heavy' load; 42 grains IMR 4895 pushing the .375 270 grain RN. Light rifle, though.

 

[PCC600]

Yes, A Mannlicher Schoenauer M1910 Take Down Model.

Not a terribly 'heavy' load; 42 grains IMR 4895 pushing the .375 270 grain RN. Light rifle, though.

I’ve shot one of these a few times . With metal butt plate . Very very light with a very narrow and short stock . Just unpleasant to shoot .

 

[Brian Rothhammer]

I’ve shot one of these a few times . With metal butt plate . Very very light with a very narrow and short stock . Just unpleasant to shoot .

Mine has never hurt me.

I just hold her tight to shoulder, 'in the pocket'.

I am a six footer with a bit of 'beef', but she never hurt me when I was slim.