Are machined copper monoliths the future of bullets?

[Hermann Weidemann]

Hunters are the original conservationists. Weide-mann in German literally means "meadow-man", which transliterates to "game-ranger". Peregrine www.peregrinebullets.com is all about "green", ethical hunting by way of superior, patented, non-lead, red-copper, CNC machined monolitics. Born and tested in Africa... coming to the USA. Welcome to the future of bullets! Weidmanns Heil, Hermann Weidemann, CEO Peregrine Bullets USA Inc.

 

[Redruff]

Cool! Welcome to a great community!

R.

 

[JamesJ]

Welcome to the forums.
While I wish you the best with your bullet company, I voted no in your poll. Solid copper bullets are always longer than normal length to make standard weight vs. a lead core bullet. The other drawback for me has been the expansion rate of a solid machined bullet, it looks like you have good expansion on your bullets, but low velocity could adversely affect pressure needed to make that expansion happen. I think the future is a alloy with the mass of lead and the malleable tendencies of a copper bullet.

If your findings are otherwise please explain.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Welcome to the forum Hermann! I wish you well in your business and as a bit of a handloading nut I look forward to seeing your product here. Having said that, I'm not sure who came up with the concept first, but realize that you have competition on this side of the ocean from Cutting Edge Bullets who make machined bullets both out of brass and copper.

 

[Mike70560]

I have shot North Fork and Cutting Edge Bullets For the last several years and will shoot a monolithic solid any day over a steel covered lead solid. The CEB Non-Con or the NF Cup Point are both devastating expanding bullets and the TSX is still hard to beat. The GS Customs and Woodleigh Hydros are said to be very good also.

The "Future of Bullets"? I think Swift, Partitions, Woodleighs, etc will be around for a long time.

Best of luck with the Peregrine Bullets.

 

[enysse]

I think with the so called environmental movement....lead will slowly go away. But I must admit, I like my cheap cup and core bullets for most game hunting and shooting. I think on pricey hunts it pays to upgrade.

 

[matt85]

welcome to the forum!

i will be trying some of your 600gr bullets in my 505 Gibbs shortly. having said that, i dont believe mono-metal bullets are the ideal bullet for all situations.

a couple weeks ago i shot a cape buffalo in Limpopo, SA and i used a Swift 570gr A-frame. to be honest i doubt a mono-metal bullet would have worked on my first shot on that buffalo. there were a couple trees blocking the shoulder and while i attempted to shoot between them i actually ended up hitting the smaller of the two trees. this tree was roughly 1.75 inches thick but the Swift A-frame still held its weight and punched threw both lungs (bullet recovered from the offside of the animal). the tree caused the bullet to expand early so the entry hole in the side of the animal was massive! recovered weight was 510gr with a nice serviceable mushroom.

i believe a monometal expanding bullet would have been deformed or clogged by the impact with the tree and thus would not have opened properly on the animal.

-matt

 

[bassasdaindia]

as already posted , I have mixed reviews on them because of them being longer than normal bullets . For some calibers where there is a large case capacity like 416 Rigby and 505 Gibbs they may even work to the benefit of the large case , however with newer calibers like 416 Ruger , 416 Rem and others they become difficult to load and achieve desired fps bullet speed.

especially with our South African powders we struggle with case capacity on some calibers.

 

[bassasdaindia]

something to add about peregrine though is that I do like the fact that the softs are able to open at a low fps speed .

 

[JamesJ]

I saw his "mechanical plunger" design on the bullets and I was wondering how those are secured. Are they pres fit or epoxy? I'm not sold on it, if one came ou,t you are shooting a solid when you are expecting a soft.

 

[Alliwyn]

Hi James

Hermann invited me to join in with his discussion. I am also from Peregrine bullets (South Africa).
It is nice to see that you are somewhat intrigued by our bullet design. The plunger is a well controlled press fit. The biggest benefit of the plunger design is it's ability to open from very low to very high velocities. This is in fact the strong point of our bullet and also why we have received tremendous support and (naturally) growth in the South African hunting community. And we hope to see the same support world wide now.

Matt85's remark about shooting in the thicket is also quite interesting. We have an excellent hunting bullet family called "Bushmaster or VRG3) for bush or thicket hunting, hence the name. It is a me-plat bullet (with a plunger) and the ability of this bullet to stay on course after hitting a twig or branch is outstanding. We have many happy customers and plenty testimonials to support the performance of these bullets. We also have a twin or clone of the Bushmaster (VRG3) in a copper solid (VRG2) for backing up dangerous game which is very popular with Big Bore hunters. The interesting thing about our bullet is that it will resist opening in wood and normally punch a hole right through with minimal deflection. Impact and normal function to open on the animal is not adversely affected after passage through a branch or twig. Obvously there are limits to the size of the branch and the density of the bush, but it would have performed the same or better than your experience. Maybe you should try it out. It will sell itself.

 

[Alliwyn]

Welcome to the forums.
While I wish you the best with your bullet company, I voted no in your poll. Solid copper bullets are always longer than normal length to make standard weight vs. a lead core bullet. The other drawback for me has been the expansion rate of a solid machined bullet, it looks like you have good expansion on your bullets, but low velocity could adversely affect pressure needed to make that expansion happen. I think the future is a alloy with the mass of lead and the malleable tendencies of a copper bullet.

If your findings are otherwise please explain.

Finding such a metal may be quite a challenge. The length is a problem that we mostly overcame with our me-plat design (VRG2 and VRG3). We advise to shoot Monolithic bullets of equivalent length than lead-core bullets, not equivalent weight. It may be 15% lighter in weight but from our experience will easily outperform it's lead-core counterpart. We started manufacturing monolithic bullets due to the vision and passion of handgun&rifle fanatic.... Adriaan Rall. Also a dangerous game hunter and outfitter for many years. His ideas and vision was instrumental in the success of our hunting bullets. We never anticipated that the future of lead-core bullets may be in danger due to new environmental policies.

 

[JamesJ]

Do you have a US based distributor yet?

I agree with the eventual fate of lead, environmental concerns, no matter how overblown will be the end of it. But a polar shift is a hard sell on the public. Barnes has been trying to overcome it for a long time and met with mixed success.

 

[matt85]

when i get a chance i might be willing to test the bushmaster bullet in a similar situation to my buffalo hunt. this would involve shooting threw a 1.75 inch (45mm) tree then into the shoulder bone of a cow and still passing threw around 24" of ballistics gel.

the 570gr Swift A-frame managed to cause the tree to explode, break the left shoulder, and then punch threw both lungs. it did this with an excellent mushroom and only losing around 60gr of weight.

-matt

 

[Alliwyn]

Hermann is our US based distributor. (Peregrine Bullets USA Inc)

Matt I'm sure you will like the performance. We have a number of big Outfitters in South Africa that moved across to our products due to performance and reliability. The famous Johan Calitz now also equipped himself with Peregrine Bullets and did a number of tests before he decided to make the switch. Obviously we are very happy with his belief in our product, as his endorsement brings huge value to our cause.

 

[ZG47]

Excellent website. Great concept to have Plainsmaster/Rangemaster combination and to offer 250 and 500 bullet boxes. Buying bullets in 100/50 quantity boxes is just a flaming nuisance.

I am currently well stocked with projectiles but will be seriously tempted to try your product as I run my stocks down.

 

[Code4]

I have used some Australian made ACP projectiles for the last two years. The 135 7mm was extremely effective in my 7x57 on larger critters. They are being sold in the Americas as USCP. I believe Midway or Brownells has them ??

http://www.auscp.net.au/Welcome.html

Yes, machined projectiles will be more prevalent in the future if costs are reasonable.

In conventional cartridges the traditional Cup and core lead projectile has be working for over 100 years and will continue to do so.

 

[Divernhunter]

I hope they are not the only choice in the future. They will be here in Calif, USA by 2019 and that is just plain wrong......like so much more is in this state.
I like to have a choice.

 

[Hermann Weidemann]

Gentlemen, thank you for your objective discussion.

There is a time and a place to use a solid, but the patented pressed plunger with its hidden air-pockets, is the real secret behind Peregrine's flat meplat VRG-3 BushMaster and the spitzer VRG-4 PlainsMaster hunting bullets. Instead of scoring (pre-weakening) the bullet to produce petals, Peregrine's hunting bullets open up into a complete mushroom of 2-3 calibers. An 8mm bullet becomes a 20mm hole punch. Petals have the disadvantage of breaking off when one of them hits bone, which can cause the bullet to change direction. In addition the flatnose BushMaster acts like a hole punch when it penetrates the skin of an animal. This "apple corer" concept is also incorporated in the Toxic Broadhead. A punched hole in the skin doesn't close back up as when shot with a spitzer, which leads to devastating blood loss and easier tracking.

Ever since Robert Ruark (Author of "Use Enough Gun"), ethical hunting has been about killing the game animal as quickly as possible, while minimizing meat damage. An exploding lead-core bullet will kill the animal, but it will also destroy edible meat, leading to "unethical" waste and possibly lead-poisoning. This green thing isn't just about lead in the environment; it is also about lead in your body. If the bullet itself can do more of the killing because of superior design, there is less need for a massive bullet, associated recoil, flinching problems, missed shots, bad bullet placement, etc.

 

[Mike70560]

I have a question and comment about the following statement from your website:

"Solid Copper reloading bullet is officially recommended as the better option for double rifle applications. It is softer on the twin barrel structure and will yield a longer barrel life. Barrel separation which is quite common on double rifles is adversely affected by the prolonged use of brass bullets."

First the comment, I own and shoot double rifles and now have a fair amount of experience around them. I have never witnessed a barrel separation, nor anybody I personally know has had a barrel separate. That is not to say it does not happen, but to say it is "quite common" is a little disingenuous.

The question, is your statement on longer barrel life with the copper bullets based solely on the copper being softer than brass? Did you perform barrel strain tests on any calibers, especially with double rifles to prove this?

It seems that I have read strain tests that showed brass as being the best option. My opinion is that brass alloys can contain silicon which provides lubricity and could lower barrel strain.