Anyone Use a Paradox Gun?

[Saul]

Not too long ago, H&H restarted production of their paradox guns, so there must be some sort of market for them. The new ones are also quite exquisite pieces. I am curious if anyone here has used/still uses a paradox gun. I think it would be great fun, even if it does not offer a practical advantage. Unfortunately, there are so many restrictions these days on what type of gun/cartridge can be used that I would fear it being legislated out of use for most field purposes.

 

[Major Khan]

I have had 2 clients ( Of English heritage ) bring Holland & Holland 12 Bore Paradox Guns to India ... For shikar . These were hammerless side lock side by side double barreled fire arms ... Equipped with double triggers , automatic ejectors , English splinter fore end , wide V back sight , uncovered ivory bead fore sight and 24 inch chopper lump barrels . 1 had 2.75 inch chambers . 1 had 3 inch chambers .

1 client used it for wing shooting , and to shoot a Nilgai and a royal Bengal tiger. 1 client used it to shoot 15 pea fowl , 2 Bengal Bush Boars and a Himalayan Brown Bear .

On a related subject , my “ 12 Bore DBBL Made In Belgium “ operates on a similar principle.

It is a 12 Bore Belgian guild gun : A box lock side by side double barreled shot gun ... Which is equipped with double triggers , extractors , 3 inch chambers and 28 inch barrels ( The left barrel is fully choked . The right barrel is modified choke ) .

It throws a magnificent pattern , with shot of all sizes up to AAA .

How ever , both barrels accurately regulate out to 45 yards ... When I fire my hand loaded spherical ball cartridges , through the gun .

Below , are just some of the quarry ... Which the grand old gun has accounted for , in the last 61 years ... With AAA buck shot cartridges .

Below , are some of the quarry ... Which the grand , old gun has accounted for , over the last 61 years ... With spherical ball cartridges .

Below , is my 21st man eater ... Taken on this February . At night , over torch light . A single 16 Bore spherical ball of hardened lead , right to the region between both of it’s 2 eyes ... Immediately laid it low . Range was 25 feet .

 

[Cam Moon]

I'm wondering with the availability of exchangeable choke tubes how many people have tried the rifled choke tubes (same idea as the paradox) and how did they find they worked? Big difference with slugs as far as accuracy? How about shooting shot though it? Much difference in spread pattern?

 

[Major Khan]

I'm wondering with the availability of exchangeable choke tubes how many people have tried the rifled choke tubes (same idea as the paradox) and how did they find they worked? Big difference with slugs as far as accuracy? How about shooting shot though it? Much difference in spread pattern?

I have used them in my semi automatic German Wischo brand 12 Bore shot gun , Cam Moon .

I have fired Brenekke Black Magic Slugs , through a rifled choke tube in this gun . They are sufficiently accurate out to 65 meters . How ever , they throw a very dismal pattern with bird shot , or AAA cartridges .

I believe that you shall do quite well ... To source a rifled choke tube , for your shot gun(s) .

 

[Cam Moon]

Major, did you try the same slugs with some smooth bore chokes? And it really messed up your pattern when using shot shells?...... Like to the point that you would want to change it before using it?

 

[Red Leg]

Not too long ago, H&H restarted production of their paradox guns, so there must be some sort of market for them. The new ones are also quite exquisite pieces. I am curious if anyone here has used/still uses a paradox gun. I think it would be great fun, even if it does not offer a practical advantage. Unfortunately, there are so many restrictions these days on what type of gun/cartridge can be used that I would fear it being legislated out of use for most field purposes.

Back to the original question. Yes, I own a William Evans 12 bore paradox. It was built just before WWI. I have even taken it to Africa, where one afternoon I rolled two warthogs for leopard bait and shot a small mound of sand grouse from the same waterhole. I have also used it very successfully on whitetail in Eastern Maryland where rifles are verboten.

It is simple looking A&D boxlock but a magnificent thing. Ross Seyfried developed the load for it, and for him, it shoots sub two-inch four shot groups at 100 meters (LxR/LxR) - for me sub three-inch (or at least it did - my eyes are not improving at my age ). It also shoots perfect improved cylinderish patterns of 1 1/8 ounces of number 6 shot. I have often used it at the clays range or out back for doves. These loads and the projectiles themselves are more like bullets than slugs and I believe it is better to think of them as such. Modern slugs are not really intended for 1 1/8 ounce proofed guns even if they would shoot accurately - which they wouldn't. They also would not work in one of the heavier proofed Paradox's such as an Explora. Powder load, wadding, and bullet shape and weight are designed to work precisely in that six inches or so of barely visible rifling. Remarkable wonderful things.

Ross's load is based on the pre-WWI paper cartridge loading which uses an uncrimped 2.5 inch case. Ross helped H&H with the load when they decided to bring back the gun, but they eventually decided to use a standard crimped loading. Just simpler - though Ross remains mildly outraged - he is a bit of a purist of the best sort. The Holland load does at fifty yards what Ross's does at 100 - which is still pretty amazing.

My old friend Tony Makris has featured a couple of his on his show "Under Wild Skies" several times, including taking a buffalo bull with the 20 bore Westley Richards Fauneta for which Ross developed a special load.

They are simply magnificent things.

 

[Cam Moon]

VERY cool gun! My apologies for derailing the topic. That wasn't my intention. My understanding was it was the same basic idea. Am I quite wrong on that uneducated assumption?

 

[Red Leg]

VERY cool gun! My apologies for derailing the topic. That wasn't my intention. My understanding was it was the same basic idea. Am I quite wrong on that uneducated assumption?

The brilliance of the design is that the 740 gr Fosbery conical bullet achieves stability in the slight "rifling" while shot charges are completely unaffected. To my knowledge, no one else still alive on the planet has a clue how to do it, but Holland & Holland has rediscovered how to build such barrels, and the projectile itself is essentially the same. Seyfried believes the longer wadding column of the original load is a critical key to accuracy, but out to seventy yards, I don't feel unarmed with the new loads.

 

[Cam Moon]

So the rifled chokes don't achieve that? Or just not as well?
One thing for certain, it's a beautiful firearm and very unique!

 

[Red Leg]

So the rifled chokes don't achieve that? Or just not as well?
One thing for certain, it's a beautiful firearm and very unique!

Modern rifled choke tubes shoot extremely ragged unusable shot patterns. They are designed to turn a single barrel shotgun tapped for choke tubes into a better slug gun. Many of them work as advertised. The beauty of the paradox was nothing had to be done to the gun. Just change the load from feather to fur - from jungle fowl to Bengal Tiger, Lion, or even buffalo. They were very popular with British officers headed to India or Africa where one gun could handle everything.

 

[Cam Moon]

What kind of range can you get with yours?

 

[Red Leg]

What kind of range can you get with yours?

Rifle or shot? As a rifle, it is mostly limited by open sights. It will easily kill a deer or an antelope out to 120 yards. As I noted above, it groups a LxR/LxR four-shot group under three inches at one hundred yards. There are darned few double rifles that will do that today. And as also noted above, it shoots lovely tight improved cylinder patterns with 1 1/8 ounce shot loads. That means it is great for pheasants, doves, or even quail where a 12 bore wouldn't be rude. Obviously, one would never ever put a load of steel anywhere near it.

 

[Saul]

@Red Leg Thank you for your reply. For your rifle loads, where do you source your bullets?

 

[flatwater bill]

From Baker and Lake's excellent book entitled "Paradox"....the business end of H&H's order #15919.....a 20 bore. Also with excellent info on the Westley Richard's Explora and Faunetta and a comparison..........FWB

 

[Red Leg]

@Red Leg Thank you for your reply. For your rifle loads, where do you source your bullets?

Ross made a mold for this gun.

 

[Red Leg]

Ross made a mold for this gun.

It was copied from a mold that accompanied a H&H Paradox in its original case.

 

[Red Leg]

This is the bible with respect to the history of the Paradox. https://www.amazon.com/Paradox-Colonel-Fosbery-Holland-Rifled/dp/1450704549

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I have had 2 clients ( Of English heritage ) bring Holland & Holland 12 Bore Paradox Guns to India ... For shikar . These were hammerless side lock side by side double barreled fire arms ... Equipped with double triggers , automatic ejectors , English splinter fore end , wide V back sight , uncovered ivory bead fore sight and 24 inch chopper lump barrels . 1 had 2.75 inch chambers . 1 had 3 inch chambers .

1 client used it for wing shooting , and to shoot a Nilgai and a royal Bengal tiger. 1 client used it to shoot 15 pea fowl , 2 Bengal Bush Boars and a Himalayan Brown Bear .

On a related subject , my “ 12 Bore DBBL Made In Belgium “ operates on a similar principle.
View attachment 353581
It is a 12 Bore Belgian guild gun : A box lock side by side double barreled shot gun ... Which is equipped with double triggers , extractors , 3 inch chambers and 28 inch barrels ( The left barrel is fully choked . The right barrel is modified choke ) .

It throws a magnificent pattern , with shot of all sizes up to AAA .
View attachment 353582

How ever , both barrels accurately regulate out to 45 yards ... When I fire my hand loaded spherical ball cartridges , through the gun .
View attachment 353583

Below , are just some of the quarry ... Which the grand old gun has accounted for , in the last 61 years ... With AAA buck shot cartridges .
View attachment 353586 View attachment 353589
Below , are some of the quarry ... Which the grand , old gun has accounted for , over the last 61 years ... With spherical ball cartridges .
View attachment 353584 View attachment 353587
View attachment 353585

Below , is my 21st man eater ... Taken on this February . At night , over torch light . A single 16 Bore spherical ball of hardened lead , right to the region between both of it’s 2 eyes ... Immediately laid it low . Range was 25 feet .
View attachment 353588

@Major Khan
My dear friend you do like to shoot those cats up close and personal. How bout tying a piece of meat on the end of the barrels and when it bites it pull the trigger. 25 feet is getting a bit to close.
Your friend Bob

 

[Wyatt Smith]

@Major Khan
My dear friend you do like to shoot those cats up close and personal. How bout tying a piece of meat on the end of the barrels and when it bites it pull the trigger. 25 feet is getting a bit to close.
Your friend Bob

How about calling it a sausage bayonet?