Anyone know what is up w/ Winchester Ammo's discontinued offerings?

[Doug Hamilton]

Fellow Consumers,

Cheers to those of you who defend the gun & ammunition industry’s latest trends and marketing tactics.
Although my view of what the industry is up to recently, apparently differs from some of you fellows here.
Nonetheless, I appreciate reading everyone’s opinions.
And as usual, I readily admit that I am the odd man out with my take on the cause of today’s recent and sudden shortages for what used to be standard and plentiful cartridges.
However, I remain of the opinion that, this relatively recent shift within the gun & ammunition marketplace is definitely caused by the industry itself.
They manipulate the buying trends, through what I perceive approaches very close to false advertising.

That said, this uncomfortable ammunition drought today is being kept alive and well by those of us consumers failing to notice we are being fooled into buying things that merely duplicate what we already have.
I’ve said before that it’s amazing so many consumers will rush out to buy whatever is new, simply because it is new.
This seems like it is particularly so when the manufacturers claim it is somehow better than what we already have, even if whatever they’re selling only duplicates what we already have, nothing more.
(My parents taught me that misleading people is called “lying”).

I am all for factories making a handsome profit.
A staunch Capitalist myself, I have enjoyed some good luck in life, via being careful with money (not falling for sales pitches) plus, investing what modest pay I earned, I now have managed to retire not wealthy but, well enough to be happy enough.
And so with that, I am all for big factories down to the simplest individual person as well, turning an honest profit.

But any industry structuring their advertising campaigns with intent to mislead the bulk of their customers is not nice.
And so, if the average consumer would just invest a few minutes in research then, analyze and compare said research against whatever the advertisers are claiming, the industry would have to adjust to our purchasing trend, not the other way around.
However I am fully aware that it is unlikely to happen.
And with that, the industry should be ashamed of themselves for taking advantage of the average consumer being so easily led.

A Case in Point:
Back a few short years ago, the industry announced their latest cartridge of the week offering, (the 7MM-08 Remington), a fellow I am acquainted with here in Alaska bought a Kimber bolt action repeater for it.
He proudly showed it to me.
I said I was curious as to, why not the 7x57 ?
He replied, the 7MM-08 is more accurate and it’s a short action.
I asked to what advantage is the short action for you ?
He replied that the bolt throw is shorter.
(This chap stands a little over 6 feet tall and is physically fit).
By then my ears had suffered more than enough discomfort and I was obviously making my friend appear uneasy.
So I quit asking questions and complimented him on his well made rifle.
The conversation ended well.

More accurate ? —> I’ll be double dipped in it if the bulk of rifles made with quality barrels for the 7x57 are suddenly now, not accurate.
I’ve read that the shorter the rifle’s action, the less susceptible it is to vibration, resulting in better accuracy.
That makes sense when I read the words.
However, after firing numerous rifles over my now old geezer lifetime, I can’t help but notice even the dreaded magnum length actioned rifles often shoot just as tight of groups as standard and even short actioned rifles do.
At least as hunting rifles and calibers go anyway.

With that, and regarding bolt action repeaters, I say that short action rifles selling for comparable prices to what standard length action rifles sell for, only benefit the maker’s bank account.
In my own experiences, the maker’s and advertiser’s claim that short action rifles are more accurate than rifles with standard length actions are is simply not true.
(Admittedly, I have no experience with Bench Rest Competition Rifles and therefore cannot comment on their accuracy, in relation to action length).

I will stop blathering now and get back to my job here at home as Senior Cook and Dishwasher.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.




Take it easy Doug,

Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning ?
I generally enjoy reading your posts but dang brother, nobody has kicked you in the shins here, especially not myself.
My opinion may not be the most popular one but it is my opinion.
I’ve been alive a long time and I calls ‘em like I sees ‘em.
Also, I do not require anyone else to agree with me.
You and I may not agree but nonetheless I respect your opinion.

Your Fellow Forum Member,
Paul Ard
(Velo Dog).

Sorry Paul. I'm old and don't have the patience I once had. I've become pretty intolerant of conspiracy theories. I spent a good many years in sales connected to manufacturing then decided I wanted a change and went into corrections. It seems every time I turn around there is a new theory about someone controlling the market, even the prisons. Ever hear the term "prison/industrial complex?" That's the idea that people are incarcerated so that they can be used for cheap labor. I can tell you for a fact that prisons cost huge amounts of money to operate and produce virtually nothing. Even trying to teach the offenders a useful skill so they can get jobs on the outside with very few minor exceptions, is mostly a bust. I spent a few years selling sporting goods wholesale and got to know people working in the industry. Firearms companies have a hard time, just like everyone else.

Everyone has an opinion, but they are not all well informed.

 

[DaddyFlip]

My thing is why not market the old instead of the new when you can . Ie get more market for the 6.5x 55 over making a new cartridge that offers nothing.
The short action rounds. Honestly here for the. Most part you don’t see that mane at least before the 6.5cm
The most sa bolt action I have seen in the field was the 243
Very few 7-08 260 and 308

I can see I will have to quote de Tocqueville for the third time on this board and for the second time in this thread to explain how/why the new overtakes the old (besides the fact that most businesses have a plan that includes new product introductions and part of that plan is to have a sizable portion of annual revenue generated by new products):

There's a new generation out there and they are shooting new carts. The French revolution started in much the same way, with many influences and factors causing political and social unrest - change; I quote Tocqueville (The Ancien Regime and the Revolution): "The antiquity of these institutions had not made them respected. Quite the contrary, they lost any credit even as they grew old and, strange to relate, they inspired all the more hatred as they seemed less capable of causing harm through their increasing decay. ‘The present state of things,’ said a German writer, a contemporary and friend of this old regime, ‘appears to have become generally painful for everyone and occasionally contemptible. It is strange to see how people now judge unfavourably everything that is old. New impressions come to light at the heart of our families and upset their orderliness. Even our housewives no longer wish to put up with their old furniture.'" (emphasis mine)

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

I agree though they were crap
But they marketing and sold the guns to more people than I thought they would for a few years.
There the one that said they will not buy Winchester stuff now.
Very few that I talked to knew that that also ment browning and fn.

My problem and it’s not really a problem.
If they have a cartridge that does everything the new hotness does
They drop loads for the old ones then in some cases drop the new hotness in a few years now

The handful of users who completely swear off a company because of that decision is such a small number it’s overshadowed by the profit gained via that products elimination. After all they’re not buying enough and a majority of them will come back to the well for a different product. In America guns aren’t like cars, most have more than one, and to rezero every gun you have away from a brand you were loyal to is an expensive and time consuming process, with very few people totally loyal to one brand.

It’s likely an acceptable risk for the bean counter making the decision. No different than the General or Politicians deciding battle plans. The grunt on the front line is just a pawn and acceptable loss.

 

[Velo Dog]

Sorry Paul. I'm old and don't have the patience I once had. I've become pretty intolerant of conspiracy theories. I spent a good many years in sales connected to manufacturing then decided I wanted a change and went into corrections. It seems every time I turn around there is a new theory about someone controlling the market, even the prisons. Ever hear the term "prison/industrial complex?" That's the idea that people are incarcerated so that they can be used for cheap labor. I can tell you for a fact that prisons cost huge amounts of money to operate and produce virtually nothing. Even trying to teach the offenders a useful skill so they can get jobs on the outside with very few minor exceptions, is mostly a bust. I spent a few years selling sporting goods wholesale and got to know people working in the industry. Firearms companies have a hard time, just like everyone else.

Everyone has an opinion, but they are not all well informed.

That’s Ok Doug,

I’m old as well so I understand.
And, if my pointing out that the relatively recent list of new cartridges introduced to the market these days, actually do not do anything new, at least not within typical hoofed game hunting distances, makes me a “Conspiracy Theorist”, oh well.
I’ve probably been called a lot worse.

Cheers,
Paul Dog.

 

[DaddyFlip]

And, if my pointing out that the relatively recent list of new cartridges introduced to the market these days, actually do not do anything new

They don't have to do anything new except to invigorate new sales. Give it up already.

 

[Xpraetor]

The handful of users who completely swear off a company because of that decision is such a small number it’s overshadowed by the profit gained via that products elimination. After all they’re not buying enough and a majority of them will come back to the well for a different product. In America guns aren’t like cars, most have more than one, and to rezero every gun you have away from a brand you were loyal to is an expensive and time consuming process, with very few people totally loyal to one brand.

It’s likely an acceptable risk for the bean counter making the decision. No different than the General or Politicians deciding battle plans. The grunt on the front line is just a pawn and acceptable loss.

Come on now, how will, "they come back to the well" , when the freakin' "well" is dried up? There is no more product , haha!! ..... have no choice but to move on.

One thing is for sure, scarecity is becoming the status quo.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

Come on now, how will, "they come back to the well" , when the freakin' "well" is dried up? There is no more product , haha!! ..... have no choice but to move on.

One thing is for sure, scarecity is becoming the status quo.

I think you missed the “other product” part.

Most Americans don’t own just a single firearm. The number who do and it’s a WSSM has to be infinitely small. The number who will completely swear off a brand because they stopped loading one of their calibers is minimal and they’ve offset those customers annual spend in production optimization.

Most will come back to the well for other Firearms they own. To say they won’t buy any Winchester branded ammo (22LR, handgun, AR, other centerfire rifle or Shotshell) when already zeroed or shooting it, is unlikely and those that do are such a small percentage it doesn’t matter. This doesn’t even account for the “what if it’s the cheapest” mindset.

 

[Xpraetor]

I think you missed the “other product” part.

Most Americans don’t own just a single firearm. The number who do and it’s a WSSM has to be infinitely small. The number who will completely swear off a brand because they stopped loading one of their calibers is minimal and they’ve offset those customers annual spend in production optimization.

Most will come back to the well for other Firearms they own. To say they won’t buy any Winchester branded ammo (22LR, handgun, AR, other centerfire rifle or Shotshell) when already zeroed or shooting it, is unlikely and those that do are such a small percentage it doesn’t matter. This doesn’t even account for the “what if it’s the cheapest” mindset.

My comment was in jest .... it has been made abundantly clear my "vote" doesn't matter.

The WinMag products Olin/Winchester offered were the only products I liked & would buy every year. Same thing for what was Remington, but is now the Czechoslovak Group - CSG = Remington/Federal/CCI. I only purchased certain product(s) & once the business model shifted & the stuff that worked went away, I wasn't a customer anymore. In my instance it ain't 1 or 2 boxes each year either.
As for the, "they'll comeback to buy other calibers", that isn't the topic ....

I've been lucky enough that I was not drastically affected by the many issues over the past 25yrs. , and I won't be in the near future.

Never thought I'd see magnum calibers become "boutique" or "curio" in my lifetime.

 

[Velo Dog]

They don't have to do anything new except to invigorate new sales. Give it up already.

Give up what, researching a new product and comparing it with what I already have ?
No, I believe I’ll continue with my naughty, look before I leap shopping habits.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

@Xpraetor
To me it seems like a simple case of economics 101.
If'n it ain't selling much offer less and produce less
Concentrate on what sells noth what doesn't.
Bob

Does anyone have insight as to why Winchester Ammo has reduced .338WM offering(s) to only 200GR , .358W offering(s) to only 200GR and .375W offering(s) to only 200GR .... in addition to other calibers that have reduced offerings, many of which bear the Winchester name. What is worse , there is zero offering for .458WM?!

However, I reload a portion of my ammo, bit that is due to the limited availability of the ammo I need.

From my perspective the current product line for Winchester Ammo is just pathetic!

 

[Doug Hamilton]

@Xpraetor
To me it seems like a simple case of economics 101.
If'n it ain't selling much offer less and produce less
Concentrate on what sells noth what doesn't.
Bob

Exactly.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

@Xpraetor
To me it seems like a simple case of economics 101.
If'n it ain't selling much offer less and produce less
Concentrate on what sells noth what doesn't.
Bob

I think we’ve belittled that point enough.

As @Xpraetor mentioned his OP was meant to be more cautionary/frustration but not worded how he intended. In his defense the heavier grain weight 338 offerings he prefers are really where the 338 shines. A majority of shooters/hunters have zero understanding of ballistics and terminal performance.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I used to think the same…but I’ve found that there can sometimes be huge differences in batches of ammunition. My last batch of Sako 308 150 grain superheat ammunition had a whopping 4 inches difference in POI at 100 yards compared to the previous batch I bought. However, when I buy factory ammunition I always buy it in a patch of at least 200 rounds.

I’ve also seen sizeable differences between batches of PPU in 9.3 x 62 and with Federal Premium loads in 30/06. But none were as sizeable as the Sako batches.

@R eight
That's why I reload. CONSISTENCY.
Fortunately I have enough powder of the same batch to do me for years, projectiles and primers.
I know if I do my part the stuff I loaded ten years ago should be the same as today and in ten years time.
That way I can pick a rifle grab the ammo and know all is good.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

We, the consumers of guns and ammunition are being “gas lighted”.
Winchester, Remington and Ruger (+ others I can’t remember at the moment) have shot themselves in the foot, so to speak by introducing a seemingly endless supply of weird and ABSOLUTELY MEANINGLESS cartridges, that really do NOTHING new (at least nothing new that makes any significant difference).
This, instead of remaining loyal to customers who have bought and / or inherited rifles from ancestors, in perfectly adequate calibers.

The following are a pinhole peek into just a few examples of the “We already have that” cartridges..

.22 Hornet vs .22 K-Hornet.
.22-250 Remington vs .220 Swift.
.243 Winchester, .244 & 6MM Remington vs .257 Roberts.
.260 Remington & 6.5 Creedmoor vs 6.5x55 & 6.5x57 Mauser.
7MM-08 Remington vs 7x57 Mauser.
.270 Winchester & .280 Remington vs 7x64 Brenneke.
.300 Winchester vs .300 H&H.
.338 Winchester vs 8x68 Schuler.

There are more but I’ll spare the readers any further agony.

If the gun and ammunition makers were to announce a new shotgun and new gauge or gauges, such as, 21 gauge, 17 gauge, 13 gauge, etc. especially in a straight pull action, with plastic thumb hole stock, muzzle brake, several piccatinny rails all over it, fluted barrel, video game compatible, Harry Potter themed etching, etc., etc., I wonder how many thousands of them would sell in today’s strange new world.

And don’t even get me started on “Wildcat” cartridges designed after about the 1960’s.

Those of us who fall for such redundancy, are exactly who PT Barnum was referring to.

And with that, I shall stand by for my “not a team player” punishment.

Velo Duck out.

@Velo Dog
When it comes to cartridges I like I definitely ain't a team player.
I like the unusual like the 22K Hornet, 222 REM and the Whelen.
Dang I even designed my own 25 just to be different just because I could.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

All the ammo manufacturers have unfortunately been reducing their caliber offerings in all 3 of Win Mag calibers you listed, it’s not just Winchester. Other ones do still offer it but they’re consistently unavailable or out of stock despite being offered.

As an FFL holder I can see available inventory at a variety of different distributors. I also notice patterns/trends on how much they get and how often they get it because that dictates my buying patterns and amount. Those calibers are typically shipped once a year if that. Ive also seen a marked decrease in the number of rifle manufacturers chambering rifles in those calibers.

Case in Point
I love a 338WM (one of the calibers you mentioned) but sold mine in 2021 because I watched 3 or 4 of the factory loads I liked get discontinued. I also saw the new projectile offerings from the different manufacturers were released most did not include .338 option, even in the component space instead of loaded ammo. That told me the demand for .338 (regardless of caliber) is such a small segment of the market it’s not worth a manufacturers time to develop a .338 Projectile in this new bullet family because the ROI isn’t there. I walk into another gun shop outside of Texas, where the 338 is more popular and see almost zero 338WM rifles on the shelf with very limited ammo options. With the 8.6blk and 338 Arc being launched this might change but only time will tell.

For very selfish reasons I’d love if a cartridge developer stood by the rounds they designed and kept them in circulation, or at least components but unfortunately not the case especially with double rifles.

@Mtn_Infantry
Unfortunately rifle and ammo manufacturers develop new cartridges and advertise the heck out of them as the next best thing only to make it redundant a few years later.
How popular is the 350 legend, 360 buckhammer now in a few years I can see some of the new cartridges going the way of the WSSM group.
That's life keep re-inventing the wheel and making a supposed better mouse trap. Advertise the heck out of it to see if it sells then start the process over.
What is the 25 creedmore going to do that other 25s haven't been doing for years. Put a fast twist barrel in old 25s and you have an even better cartridge. Another dodo in the making.
Don't get me started in the 264 win mag. A brilliant cartridge that was kill with bullshit as a barrel burner, not any better than the 270 and Remington introduced the 7mm mag. Made the 264 redundant.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Some folks in this thread seem to think that G&A companies are public utilities; they are not.

Why did H&H put a belt on the 375 and 300? Because there wasn't enough shoulder for proper headspacing; the belt mimicked a rim. When the 'magnum' craze hit the states in the 40's, why did the belt remain for 40+ years? Because "belt = magnum" in the mind of consumers then. Market manipulation? No; it's what sold.

How did the WSM trend take off? Folks finally figured out that a belt wasn't needed to achieve 'magnum' performance? Why didn't they figure that out with the big Rigby? The Rigby was never called a 'magnum', nor were offerings from any of the other British houses; that was H&H genius that 'won' the market, even to this day.

Why did the WSM trend die off? It didn't; WSM, WSSM, RSM, RPM, etc.; hunting cartridges are now playing off the popularity of wide and fat beltless cartridges that dominate benchrest shooting.

If the belt is dead, why are there still so many carts and rifles available for it, even the original is as popular as ever over 100 years later? Mainly tradition and market acceptance, some the number of existing guns out there, the rest it would be too hard to explain to folks why certain carts were being discontinued.

If that's true, then why is the 338 and 458 seemingly going the way of the dodo? Hard as it may seem to some, it's not particularly difficult to explain these away; I'll let previous arguments make my case. For one, the Lott, inexplicably, appears to be more popular now than the Win, the Win is the baby of all the big bore carts and was the band-aid fix for when the big boomers disappeared from the market decades ago. The band-aid is no longer needed, folks who want big today don't choose the Win and the mid-bores (416, for example) are more popular and equal or better the Win in performance. The 338 was always that niche/not necessary caliber; it's good at what it does but I don't think (notice, this is an opinion) it has ever had widespread popularity.

What would you do/think if some government entity decided to ban the use of all metal case cartridges with a past or present military use or designation, foreign or domestic? No Swedish, Mauser, Gov't, Win, Sprg, etc.

@DaddyFlip
I'm wide, fat and belt less, maybe one day I may become popular
Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha
Bob

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

@Mtn_Infantry
Unfortunately rifle and ammo manufacturers develop new cartridges and advertise the heck out of them as the next best thing only to make it redundant a few years later.
How popular is the 350 legend, 360 buckhammer now in a few years I can see some of the new cartridges going the way of the WSSM group.
That's life keep re-inventing the wheel and making a supposed better mouse trap. Advertise the heck out of it to see if it sells then start the process over.
What is the 25 creedmore going to do that other 25s haven't been doing for years. Put a fast twist barrel in old 25s and you have an even better cartridge. Another dodo in the making.
Don't get me started in the 264 win mag. A brilliant cartridge that was kill with bullshit as a barrel burner, not any better than the 270 and Remington introduced the 7mm mag. Made the 264 redundant.
Bob

Marketing and new products are the life blood of any manufacturer. No one can always hit home runs. Sometimes a home run product is a dud but the consumer doesn't understand or think they need that product. Other times its ahead of its time and the market, and many times it's a solution to a question that doesn't exist.

One thing that I think would surprise you is the popularity of 350 Legend Rifles. It's not popular in every state, but in some states it's in the Top 3 best selling calibers and even #1 in a couple. I think you'd also be shocked at how it'd rank for some manufacturers in terms of the number of rifles they build by caliber.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Marketing and new products are the life blood of any manufacturer. No one can always hit home runs. Sometimes a home run product is a dud but the consumer doesn't understand or think they need that product. Other times its ahead of its time and the market, and many times it's a solution to a question that doesn't exist.

One thing that I think would surprise you is the popularity of 350 Legend Rifles. It's not popular in every state, but in some states it's in the Top 3 best selling calibers and even #1 in a couple. I think you'd also be shocked at how it'd rank for some manufacturers in terms of the number of rifles they build by caliber.

@Mtn_Infantry
In Australia I don't know anyone that has one.
To reload it you need ADI2205/H110. Impossible to get here so only limited factory loads so pretty much an almost ran here
Bob

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

@Mtn_Infantry
In Australia I don't know anyone that has one.
To reload it you need ADI2205/H110. Impossible to get here so only limited factory loads so pretty much an almost ran here
Bob

The sample size of Australia is a fraction of the US Market, and likely a very small percentage of Winchesters total overall global sales. When looking at manufacturing we need to look outside of our immediate needs/knowledge and how it pertains to the larger market.
The #1 mistake I think retailers (regardless of industry) make is letting their personal bias cloud business. Not carrying or selling a product because they don't like it, don't know about it, or don't understand it.
I live in Texas, 350 Legend isn't super popular since it's designed for states with straight wall regulations, but you'd be surprised how many have been sold in Texas. I bet it outsells 35 Whelen at least 5:1 reason being, it expands when suppressed and run at subsonic velocities. Many other 30cal projectiles have struggled to do in a 300Blk meaning some Hog Hunters are shooting it and really liking it. Now I'm not saying it'll be around for the next 100 years, but it's more popular than you'd think and in some states exceeds .308 Win or .223/5.56 Rifle Sales

 

[Flbt]

At least locally the 350l is very very popular
I know at least 10 kids started on it.
And quite a few adults that like it for hogs
Including me on that .
Easy to shoot heavy enough bullets I use the 170gr hornday interlock .
But surprisingly there are more ar handguns in it than I would have thought.
Talked to a guy about it
“ out of a short barrel the 150 bt looks way better for all use than a 55gr 223”

And I would rather see the younger hunter using a 350l than a 243