Anyone know what is up w/ Winchester Ammo's discontinued offerings?

"common sense" you say , well excuse me for not having your superior business acumen of Olin/Winchester Ammo's new business model.
May we all revel in awe at your prowess in preparedness.
No company is in business to.make anyone happy. They are in business to make money. Period. If they cannot make enough money to justify the expense of production, storage, shipping, etc. of a product, any product,they will drop it. Fact of life.

This hurts me too. I have a.458 Win Mag. I probably have enough brass to last the rest of my life, and I haven't fired a factory center fire rifle round outside of practice in probably 40 years. That doesn't mean I don't want to know that I can go buy what I want. Sometimes life is hard and you just have to suck it up.
 
If a business changes how they manufacture there’s got to be a first time for the change.

Maybe Winchester deactivates stuff off their website in the years or months they’re not making them? To me that would be counterproductive because it’d raise questions like this, and cause their customers who are loyal to look for a substitute option. Not sure about you but once I have a load that shoots and is zeroed I’m not changing. It’s why I purchase in case quantities and the same lot number. If I’m gonna rezero, I’m doing the same thing with that load. I can’t be 100% sure of what they’re doing since I don’t work for them but would wager on them being low velocity SKU’s and trimmed from the line to simplify production.
I know nothing about there websites.
Most of the once a year loading
Was called seasonal loading in there catalog.
And a guy at there onllin plant said that was 1 time a year loading.
I was a lot more active around gun shops and shooting stuff pre 2010

It’s later on that I heard a lot of complaints about not being able to find newer droped ammo the wssm come to mind the most
 
The only thing is the company’s should have a duty to manufacture
They sold and marked the original cartridge.
With the expectation that cartridge would be available.
If the company tells you ahead of time they will quickly drop said product I bet the initial sells of that rifle would not go over.

I understand very low sells but of other company loads ammo the parent company should.

Not everyone can reload
The only "duty" any company has is to make a profit for the owner or share holders. Once a product causes a financial loss to the company it will go the way of the Model T. Manufacturing and sales costs money.
 
The only "duty" any company has is to make a profit for the owner or share holders. Once a product causes a financial loss to the company it will go the way of the Model T. Manufacturing and sales costs money.
Yes agreed but when you kill of the ammo
You take a good chance of losing that buyer
And I don’t think Winchester lost money on the season runs not at the price they want for it
Now did it not make as much and as quickly as something else I would say yes.
Again like some of the people that got really mad about the wssm
They said they were done with Winchester.
So how much does stuff like that lose over the long run?
 
We, the consumers of guns and ammunition are being “gas lighted”.
Winchester, Remington and Ruger (+ others I can’t remember at the moment) have shot themselves in the foot, so to speak by introducing a seemingly endless supply of weird and ABSOLUTELY MEANINGLESS cartridges, that really do NOTHING new (at least nothing new that makes any significant difference).
This, instead of remaining loyal to customers who have bought and / or inherited rifles from ancestors, in perfectly adequate calibers.

The following are a pinhole peek into just a few examples of the “We already have that” cartridges..

.22 Hornet vs .22 K-Hornet.
.22-250 Remington vs .220 Swift.
.243 Winchester, .244 & 6MM Remington vs .257 Roberts.
.260 Remington & 6.5 Creedmoor vs 6.5x55 & 6.5x57 Mauser.
7MM-08 Remington vs 7x57 Mauser.
.270 Winchester & .280 Remington vs 7x64 Brenneke.
.300 Winchester vs .300 H&H.
.338 Winchester vs 8x68 Schuler.

There are more but I’ll spare the readers any further agony.

If the gun and ammunition makers were to announce a new shotgun and new gauge or gauges, such as, 21 gauge, 17 gauge, 13 gauge, etc. especially in a straight pull action, with plastic thumb hole stock, muzzle brake, several piccatinny rails all over it, fluted barrel, video game compatible, Harry Potter themed etching, etc., etc., I wonder how many thousands of them would sell in today’s strange new world.

And don’t even get me started on “Wildcat” cartridges designed after about the 1960’s. :ROFLMAO:

Those of us who fall for such redundancy, are exactly who PT Barnum was referring to.

And with that, I shall stand by for my “not a team player” punishment.:A Voodoo:

Velo Duck out.
Gas lighted? Get real. All companies must develop and sell new products or they go out of business. Many of the newer cartridges were originally created by "wild caters" using cases that were cheap and plentiful. Yes, I'm specifically referring to 7.62 x 51 (.308). Those who like trying to come up with something new do it. If it proves popular the rifle manufacturers will start making rifles for it, even if the cartridge performance is similar to something that already exists. There is also the idea that new rounds should fit into existing actions. A 7x57 does not fit into the short actions developed for .308 Winchester length actions. As the market demanded, short, light rifles became all the rage. Same thing applies to the magnums. The full length magnum cartridges do not fit in standard (.30-06) length actions.

My uncles (by marriage) father hunted with a .44-40. Should Winchester not have developed faster (better) cartridges because most developments were only marginally better than what already existed? Or maybe they shouldn't have come out with bolt action rifles because they already had lever actions?

Change happens. Get over it.
 
Yes agreed but when you kill of the ammo
You take a good chance of losing that buyer
And I don’t think Winchester lost money on the season runs not at the price they want for it
Now did it not make as much and as quickly as something else I would say yes.
Again like some of the people that got really mad about the wssm
They said they were done with Winchester.
So how much does stuff like that lose over the long run?
I don't know, but if the WSSM had been profitable someone would still make it. I remember when these first came out. A lot of people said it was a solution to a problem that didn't exist. I figured it was doomed at the time. I also figured the new 7mm with the brass and steel combo case (I don't remember the name) is also one I won't be buying.
 
Gas lighted? Get real. All companies must develop and sell new products or they go out of business. Many of the newer cartridges were originally created by "wild caters" using cases that were cheap and plentiful. Yes, I'm specifically referring to 7.62 x 51 (.308). Those who like trying to come up with something new do it. If it proves popular the rifle manufacturers will start making rifles for it, even if the cartridge performance is similar to something that already exists. There is also the idea that new rounds should fit into existing actions. A 7x57 does not fit into the short actions developed for .308 Winchester length actions. As the market demanded, short, light rifles became all the rage. Same thing applies to the magnums. The full length magnum cartridges do not fit in standard (.30-06) length actions.

My uncles (by marriage) father hunted with a .44-40. Should Winchester not have developed faster (better) cartridges because most developments were only marginally better than what already existed? Or maybe they shouldn't have come out with bolt action rifles because they already had lever actions?

Change happens. Get over it.
If you think the cartridge should fit into existing action there would be no so-called short action the 7x57 and 6.5x55 were out decades before the 308 family of cartridge
 
I don't know, but if the WSSM had been profitable someone would still make it. I remember when these first came out. A lot of people said it was a solution to a problem that didn't exist. I figured it was doomed at the time. I also figured the new 7mm with the brass and steel combo case (I don't remember the name) is also one I won't be buying.
I agree though they were crap
But they marketing and sold the guns to more people than I thought they would for a few years.
There the one that said they will not buy Winchester stuff now.
Very few that I talked to knew that that also ment browning and fn.

My problem and it’s not really a problem.
If they have a cartridge that does everything the new hotness does
They drop loads for the old ones then in some cases drop the new hotness in a few years now
 
Some folks in this thread seem to think that G&A companies are public utilities; they are not.

Why did H&H put a belt on the 375 and 300? Because there wasn't enough shoulder for proper headspacing; the belt mimicked a rim. When the 'magnum' craze hit the states in the 40's, why did the belt remain for 40+ years? Because "belt = magnum" in the mind of consumers then. Market manipulation? No; it's what sold.

How did the WSM trend take off? Folks finally figured out that a belt wasn't needed to achieve 'magnum' performance? Why didn't they figure that out with the big Rigby? The Rigby was never called a 'magnum', nor were offerings from any of the other British houses; that was H&H genius that 'won' the market, even to this day.

Why did the WSM trend die off? It didn't; WSM, WSSM, RSM, RPM, etc.; hunting cartridges are now playing off the popularity of wide and fat beltless cartridges that dominate benchrest shooting.

If the belt is dead, why are there still so many carts and rifles available for it, even the original is as popular as ever over 100 years later? Mainly tradition and market acceptance, some the number of existing guns out there, the rest it would be too hard to explain to folks why certain carts were being discontinued.

If that's true, then why is the 338 and 458 seemingly going the way of the dodo? Hard as it may seem to some, it's not particularly difficult to explain these away; I'll let previous arguments make my case. For one, the Lott, inexplicably, appears to be more popular now than the Win, the Win is the baby of all the big bore carts and was the band-aid fix for when the big boomers disappeared from the market decades ago. The band-aid is no longer needed, folks who want big today don't choose the Win and the mid-bores (416, for example) are more popular and equal or better the Win in performance. The 338 was always that niche/not necessary caliber; it's good at what it does but I don't think (notice, this is an opinion) it has ever had widespread popularity.

What would you do/think if some government entity decided to ban the use of all metal case cartridges with a past or present military use or designation, foreign or domestic? No Swedish, Mauser, Gov't, Win, Sprg, etc.
 
If you think the cartridge should fit into existing action there would be no so-called short action the 7x57 and 6.5x55 were out decades before the 308 family of cartridge
But the brass/loaded ammo is neither cheap or easy to find in the US. The .308 was adopted by the US and NATO in the 50's. Therefore there is tons of it around.and is cheaper. If the 7x57 or 6.5x55 were ever adopted by the US and NATO those would be cheap and easy to get. Before the .308 the US cartridge was the.30-06. How many cartridges have been developed from that one? Except maybe the .270, I think all the rest came from wild catters. Everything from the .25-06 to the .35 Whelan can still be found and bought over the counter. The demand for .308 length actions drove manufacturers in that direction.
There's also a whole industry around the .223 sized cartridges. Guess why.
By the way, the 7x57 does not fit into a short action. I don't know about the 6.5x55. I can't remember ever seeing one.
 
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But the brass/loaded ammo is neither cheap or easy to find in the US. The .308 was adopted by the US and NATO in the 50's. Therefore there is tons of it around.and is cheaper. If the 7x57 or 6.5x55 were ever adopted by the US and NATO those would be cheap and easy to get. Before the .308 the US cartridge was the.30-06. How many cartridges have been developed from that one? Except maybe the .270, I think all the rest came from wild catters. Everything from the .25-06 to the .35 Whelan can still be found and bought over the counter. The demand for .308 length actions drove manufacturers in that direction.
There's also a whole industry around the .223 sized cartridges. Guess why.
By the way, the 7x57 does not fit into a short action. I don't know about the 6.5x55. I can't remember ever seeing one.
Your missing the point. They were out in the late 1800s the 308 in the 50s
The whole industry was around them not the short action
 
Fellow Consumers,

Cheers to those of you who defend the gun & ammunition industry’s latest trends and marketing tactics.
Although my view of what the industry is up to recently, apparently differs from some of you fellows here.
Nonetheless, I appreciate reading everyone’s opinions.
And as usual, I readily admit that I am the odd man out with my take on the cause of today’s recent and sudden shortages for what used to be standard and plentiful cartridges.
However, I remain of the opinion that, this relatively recent shift within the gun & ammunition marketplace is definitely caused by the industry itself.
They manipulate the buying trends, through what I perceive approaches very close to false advertising.

That said, this uncomfortable ammunition drought today is being kept alive and well by those of us consumers failing to notice we are being fooled into buying things that merely duplicate what we already have.
I’ve said before that it’s amazing so many consumers will rush out to buy whatever is new, simply because it is new.
This seems like it is particularly so when the manufacturers claim it is somehow better than what we already have, even if whatever they’re selling only duplicates what we already have, nothing more.
(My parents taught me that misleading people is called “lying”). :A Pinocchio:

I am all for factories making a handsome profit.
A staunch Capitalist myself, I have enjoyed some good luck in life, via being careful with money (not falling for sales pitches) :ROFLMAO: plus, investing what modest pay I earned, I now have managed to retire not wealthy but, well enough to be happy enough.
And so with that, I am all for big factories down to the simplest individual person as well, turning an honest profit.

But any industry structuring their advertising campaigns with intent to mislead the bulk of their customers is not nice.
And so, if the average consumer would just invest a few minutes in research then, analyze and compare said research against whatever the advertisers are claiming, the industry would have to adjust to our purchasing trend, not the other way around.
However I am fully aware that it is unlikely to happen.
And with that, the industry should be ashamed of themselves for taking advantage of the average consumer being so easily led.

A Case in Point:
Back a few short years ago, the industry announced their latest cartridge of the week offering, (the 7MM-08 Remington), a fellow I am acquainted with here in Alaska bought a Kimber bolt action repeater for it.
He proudly showed it to me.
I said I was curious as to, why not the 7x57 ?
He replied, the 7MM-08 is more accurate and it’s a short action.
I asked to what advantage is the short action for you ?
He replied that the bolt throw is shorter.
(This chap stands a little over 6 feet tall and is physically fit).
By then my ears had suffered more than enough discomfort and I was obviously making my friend appear uneasy.
So I quit asking questions and complimented him on his well made rifle.
The conversation ended well.

More accurate ? —> I’ll be double dipped in it if the bulk of rifles made with quality barrels for the 7x57 are suddenly now, not accurate.
I’ve read that the shorter the rifle’s action, the less susceptible it is to vibration, resulting in better accuracy.
That makes sense when I read the words.
However, after firing numerous rifles over my now old geezer lifetime, I can’t help but notice even the dreaded magnum length actioned rifles often shoot just as tight of groups as standard and even short actioned rifles do.
At least as hunting rifles and calibers go anyway.

With that, and regarding bolt action repeaters, I say that short action rifles selling for comparable prices to what standard length action rifles sell for, only benefit the maker’s bank account.
In my own experiences, the maker’s and advertiser’s claim that short action rifles are more accurate than rifles with standard length actions are is simply not true.
(Admittedly, I have no experience with Bench Rest Competition Rifles and therefore cannot comment on their accuracy, in relation to action length).

I will stop blathering now and get back to my job here at home as Senior Cook and Dishwasher.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.


Gas lighted? Get real. All companies must develop and sell new products or they go out of business. Many of the newer cartridges were originally created by "wild caters" using cases that were cheap and plentiful. Yes, I'm specifically referring to 7.62 x 51 (.308). Those who like trying to come up with something new do it. If it proves popular the rifle manufacturers will start making rifles for it, even if the cartridge performance is similar to something that already exists. There is also the idea that new rounds should fit into existing actions. A 7x57 does not fit into the short actions developed for .308 Winchester length actions. As the market demanded, short, light rifles became all the rage. Same thing applies to the magnums. The full length magnum cartridges do not fit in standard (.30-06) length actions.

My uncles (by marriage) father hunted with a .44-40. Should Winchester not have developed faster (better) cartridges because most developments were only marginally better than what already existed? Or maybe they shouldn't have come out with bolt action rifles because they already had lever actions?

Change happens. Get over it.

Take it easy Doug,

Get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning ?
I generally enjoy reading your posts but dang brother, nobody has kicked you in the shins here, especially not myself.
My opinion may not be the most popular one but it is my opinion.
I’ve been alive a long time and I calls ‘em like I sees ‘em.
Also, I do not require anyone else to agree with me.
You and I may not agree but nonetheless I respect your opinion.

Your Fellow Forum Member,
Paul Ard
(Velo Dog).
 
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@Velo Dog it's just business. All manufacturers try to reduce cost while providing a product they think/hope will sell. That's why "new" matters and why new products tend to duplicate the performance of old products, even if the new products aren't that much improved. To do this requires a marketing campaign, supporting media outlets, and new buyers- there's always new buyers. The best part for the manufacturers is in a few years this thread will be digital dust, you will be real dust, your complaints won't matter, and "progress" will continue to march on.

One day, a Gen Z'er will have the same complaint as you about the 6.5CM being hard to find and replaced by the latest zinger of a cartridge. Let's hope so.
 
Your missing the point. They were out in the late 1800s the 308 in the 50s
The whole industry was around them not the short action
No. I'm not missing anything. Maybe I didn't explain it in enough detail. Business follows demand. Yes they will.try to influence buying habits but in the end it is the consumers that decide what the manufacturers produce.
 
@Velo Dog it's just business. All manufacturers try to reduce cost while providing a product they think/hope will sell. That's why "new" matters and why new products tend to duplicate the performance of old products, even if the new products aren't that much improved. To do this requires a marketing campaign, supporting media outlets, and new buyers- there's always new buyers. The best part for the manufacturers is in a few years this thread will be digital dust, you will be real dust, your complaints won't matter, and "progress" will continue to march on.

One day, a Gen Z'er will have the same complaint as you about the 6.5CM being hard to find and replaced by the latest zinger of a cartridge. Let's hope so.
I kinda hope your right.
But the trend of gun / ammo manufacturers being just another business.
I believe will do more to stop gun culture than the anti gun politions
 
@Velo Dog it's just business. All manufacturers try to reduce cost while providing a product they think/hope will sell. That's why "new" matters and why new products tend to duplicate the performance of old products, even if the new products aren't that much improved. To do this requires a marketing campaign, supporting media outlets, and new buyers- there's always new buyers. The best part for the manufacturers is in a few years this thread will be digital dust, you will be real dust, your complaints won't matter, and "progress" will continue to march on.

One day, a Gen Z'er will have the same complaint as you about the 6.5CM being hard to find and replaced by the latest zinger of a cartridge. Let's hope so.
Bulls eye!
 
I kinda hope your right.
But the trend of gun / ammo manufacturers being just another business.
I believe will do more to stop gun culture than the anti gun politions
Maybe that's the plan. Big business/private equity taking over the G&A manufacturers and shutting them down. You know what to do whenever threats loom; go buy all you can until the threat is over. Maybe the big spenders are tracked/traced so 'they' know where you are.
 
No. I'm not missing anything. Maybe I didn't explain it in enough detail. Business follows demand. Yes they will.try to influence buying habits but in the end it is the consumers that decide what the manufacturers produce.
Oh ok I think I got it on the sa now
You were not saying the popular of the 7x57 and 6.5x55 was because they were not built on short action
Not that sa was the norm first.

( some times the dyslexia does make things a bit hard to fllow just a by product of it)

My thing is why not market the old instead of the new when you can . Ie get more market for the 6.5x 55 over making a new cartridge that offers nothing.
The short action rounds. Honestly here for the. Most part you don’t see that mane at least before the 6.5cm
The most sa bolt action I have seen in the field was the 243
Very few 7-08 260 and 308

I would say for most people the old 30-06 and 270 still seam the most popular.

The way I got my wife her 6mm a guy that was bacilly a self pawn broker took one in for the cost of a light bill.
When the guy did not come back
Every one that the broker tried to sell it to did not want it because they didn’t know what a 6mm rem was.
I did and he was happy to get his money back.
I got a dammed good rifle cheep because I read a lot about guns and ammo.
And knew a older guy that used a 244 rem and told me all about it.

And most here still don’t know what it is or my 358 or even the 257 wb for that matter
 
Maybe that's the plan. Big business/private equity taking over the G&A manufacturers and shutting them down. You know what to do whenever threats loom; go buy all you can until the threat is over. Maybe the big spenders are tracked/traced so 'they' know where you are.
Cash and in person
Especially for anything interesting
 
Some folks in this thread seem to think that G&A companies are public utilities; they are not.

Why did H&H put a belt on the 375 and 300? Because there wasn't enough shoulder for proper headspacing; the belt mimicked a rim. When the 'magnum' craze hit the states in the 40's, why did the belt remain for 40+ years? Because "belt = magnum" in the mind of consumers then. Market manipulation? No; it's what sold.

How did the WSM trend take off? Folks finally figured out that a belt wasn't needed to achieve 'magnum' performance? Why didn't they figure that out with the big Rigby? The Rigby was never called a 'magnum', nor were offerings from any of the other British houses; that was H&H genius that 'won' the market, even to this day.

Why did the WSM trend die off? It didn't; WSM, WSSM, RSM, RPM, etc.; hunting cartridges are now playing off the popularity of wide and fat beltless cartridges that dominate benchrest shooting.

If the belt is dead, why are there still so many carts and rifles available for it, even the original is as popular as ever over 100 years later? Mainly tradition and market acceptance, some the number of existing guns out there, the rest it would be too hard to explain to folks why certain carts were being discontinued.

If that's true, then why is the 338 and 458 seemingly going the way of the dodo? Hard as it may seem to some, it's not particularly difficult to explain these away; I'll let previous arguments make my case. For one, the Lott, inexplicably, appears to be more popular now than the Win, the Win is the baby of all the big bore carts and was the band-aid fix for when the big boomers disappeared from the market decades ago. The band-aid is no longer needed, folks who want big today don't choose the Win and the mid-bores (416, for example) are more popular and equal or better the Win in performance. The 338 was always that niche/not necessary caliber; it's good at what it does but I don't think (notice, this is an opinion) it has ever had widespread popularity.

What would you do/think if some government entity decided to ban the use of all metal case cartridges with a past or present military use or designation, foreign or domestic? No Swedish, Mauser, Gov't, Win, Sprg, etc.

The issue isn't "people think G&A are public utilities" , the issue is a lot of firearms have the potential of being relegated to *clubs .... the impetus of the post was to make it known for those who give a crap, and as you & many others have stated, will "vote" with their wallets. Will it make a difference, probably not, but making sure it is known by as many as possible is not a negative.
For some reason the title & text of my OP generated heated discourse. I now know I should have worded the OP differently. The facts are there will be a lot of people dumping the WIN - WSM - WSSM - WM , etc... along with several rifle MFG being stuck with inventory.
Again, there has NOT been anyone "mad" about what Olin/Winchester has decided, they are disappointed, and they can certainly feel that way.

The thing is, how will everyone feel when there particular "cartridge" falls victim to same business decision.

I truly did not anticipate this thread would generate this much discussion....
 
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