Any of you stop a charge with a handgun?

I have a friend who was changed by a wounded black bear. He put it down with several shots from a Taurus TX semi-auto .22LR pistol.

There maybe something to be said by hitting the animal many times, vs. 1-2 shots from a "big-bore" handgun.


I carry a 10mm Glock when hunting in grizzly country.
 
Many do carry the 10mm. In certain circumstances more cartridges would be a plus, in certain circumstances more power is a plus. In the circumstance in the video, the hunter started shooting a 30 yards (I don't think you can shoot much sooner in a DLP situation), and by the 5th shot the bear was 5 yards away. If the bear had not turned or stopped, there would have been no more time for subsequent shots. It took 5 454's to turn this bear (4 hits and a miss). None of the 454 hits was a CNS shot because the bear turned and ran another 100 yards before expiring. I doubt anything smaller would have worked in this circumstance. Makes you think.

In another video in this thread, another hunter had to shoot another brown bear 10 times at under 5 yards with a 10mm to stop him. One of the latter shots was a spine shot that paralyzed the bears back legs. The bear kept coming after the CNS spine shot, but fortunately it slowed him down enough the hunter was able to get the last 4 SHOTS in. If not for the lucky CNS shot, that hunter would have probably not gotten 10 shots off, and would have probably died using a 10mm with 230gr hardcast at point blank range. Makes you think.

I carry revolvers in 44mag, 445supermag, or a 500S&W. I'm just glad to hear you carry a big handgun and wish you well with it. The primary advantage of the 10mm is it lets you fire several warning shots. I hope neither of us have to use one at point blank range on a big bear.
 
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I shot a black bear that didn't like me at a bait site !
Was a bear guide for 14 years 10 years ago got back to the house a little late to bait the blinds and get to my blind to hunt, so I was in a rush to get out. Usally I carry my S&W 629 in 44 mag. with a 4" barrel, well in the rush to get out the door I still had my Kimber 45 ACP Officers on me. Baits I wasen't going to hunt I drove the ATV right to it. So I drive to bait #1, took the lid off the 55 gallon barrel and poured in 1 bucket when I was pouring in the second in the corner of my eye I saw a bear running right at me it was 50 feet a way and closeing in fast. I turned drew the Kimber and shot two times the bear was dead 2' from me, smoke was coming off the bear after the shots. The 230 gr. Federal Hi-Shok's put the bear down. One shot was a little low between the eyes the other was above the eyes 1" to the left. My ears were ringing after the shots !
Bear was not that big it weighed just over 200 lbs. dressed but it had some large cuts on its head and rump, it also had very little fat on it.

Most guides I know don't carry a gun for protection while baiting, but will carry when tracking a bear that was shot. I've seen many bears while baiting most just getting out of there spooked. But to attack and not be wounded.
 
A pistol cartridge can seem big and formidable until you put it in a rifle--then everybody thinks it is a marginal choice!! And the rifle has a longer barrel for velocity and sight radius...

Seems like someone once compared the 357 mag to a 30 carbine round; not my choice for bear, etc.
 
A pistol cartridge can seem big and formidable until you put it in a rifle--then everybody thinks it is a marginal choice!! And the rifle has a longer barrel for velocity and sight radius...

Seems like someone once compared the 357 mag to a 30 carbine round; not my choice for bear, etc.
I think the 357 out of a carbine is closer to a 30-30 instead of a 30 carbine.

I have killed deer and hogs with the 44 mag out of handgun and rifle
And them with the 45 colt out of a handgun.
I think you need to look at the bigger handgun cartridge more like the effect muzzle loader.
The 44 mag to me seams to hit the animals harder than a 30-30.
And the same with the 45 colt
 
A pistol cartridge can seem big and formidable until you put it in a rifle--then everybody thinks it is a marginal choice!! And the rifle has a longer barrel for velocity and sight radius...

Seems like someone once compared the 357 mag to a 30 carbine round; not my choice for bear, etc.



No handgun and few rifles seem "big and formitable" when it comes to charge stopping.
 
There was an angry opossum that didn’t want to let me in the front door several years ago ….. :rolleyes:

I am rather certain trying to stop an inbound lion, buff, or elephant with a handgun would be close to abject futility.
Good luck even thinking you can stop a charging DG animal in Africa with a handgun I don’t care how powerful…a wish to die comes to mind
 
DOCUMENTED CASES OF HANDGUN ONLY DEFENSE ATTEMPTS AGAINST BEARS

Cases by case reports.​

I am starting to broaden my perspective a little about your chances of defending yourself with a handgun against really big bears. There is a writer who has spent a LOT of time researching DOCUMENTED cases of people using handguns for bear defense. In 205 documented cases of handgun ONLY defense against bear attacks world wide, handguns were successful in saving lives/stopping the attack 98% of the time. In over 50% of the cases, 3 shots or less were required. Just anecdotally from reading the accounts, big calibers, 44mag and up seem to require fewer shots, but smaller calibers are quite often effective in ending the attack. Interesting by law, Norway requires that firearms be carried when visiting certain wilderness areas, and handguns qualify only if they are 41 mag and up. There are several incidents of successful handgun defenses against polar bears, which surprised me.

Unsuccessful incidents are not reported as often, but fatality numbers being relatively low, and attempted defense with a handgun being a relatively small percentage of the fatalities, it seems that will not effect the successful percentage of handgun defenses very significantly. This is also counterbalanced by the probable relatively high number of attacks stopped by handgun warning shots that are NEVER documented.

Certanly for black bears, and much more than I thought, for bigger bears,

HANDGUNS SAVE LIVES, LOTS OF THEM.
 
I was the owner of a black bear guide service....I carried every moment I was working a bait. I know many other guides that never carry and many that only carry a ax trailing a wounded bear. My thoughts is the odds of them needing a gun go up every time they go out. It my not be needed the next time or even a year from now but one day it going to happen.

For me it took over 45 years before the piper played they wanted to be payed. And I was glad I had a handgun to use.
 
Completely understand a black bear, a cape buffalo, a lion and leopard speed is so much faster that a black bear and the OP was asking about Africa on a charging DG animal
 
I think the 357 out of a carbine is closer to a 30-30 instead of a 30 carbine.

I have killed deer and hogs with the 44 mag out of handgun and rifle
And them with the 45 colt out of a handgun.
I think you need to look at the bigger handgun cartridge more like the effect muzzle loader.
The 44 mag to me seams to hit the animals harder than a 30-30.
And the same with the 45 colt
Elmer Keith and skeeter Skelton both have said that a 44 mag handgun has the approximate power of a 30-30 rifle. I’m glad to see someone with real world experience confirm it. I haven’t killed enough game with a handgun yet to have a good opinion.
 
Completely understand a black bear, a cape buffalo, a lion and leopard speed is so much faster that a black bear and the OP was asking about Africa on a charging DG animal
I can't say that a cape buffalo is faster than a black bear but he is certainly more impervious to bullet damage. Either way, I think trying to stop a charge from any of the Big 5 with a handgun is not going to turn out well. My best advise would be to not run out of rifle ammo and find yourself in a position where using a handgun seems like the best option.
 
Completely understand a black bear, a cape buffalo, a lion and leopard speed is so much faster that a black bear and the OP was asking about Africa on a charging DG animal
Point taken about the OP asking about AFRICAN DG.

If not such a legal pain in the main drain, I would probably take a 44mag to Africa, but certainly would hate to have to use it on anything, especially anything bigger than lion. I would still much prefer a 44mag to throwing rocks or kicking dirt.

As far as speed differentials between black bear and the animals you mention, it is less than 1 second for a charge from 25 yards. No practical difference as far as shooting time goes. I don't understand your point. In all cases, in a worst case maximum speed charge with any firearm, you have one shot to slow the animal enough to get a second shot. It better be a good shot with a big caliber, or you are screwed.



Animal ________ Max Speed ___________Average Weight Upper End _________Seconds to cover 25yds

Black Bear _____ 30mph _______________500lbs _______________________________1.7 seconds

Polar bear ______25mph________________1300lbs _____________________________2.05 seconds

Brown Bear _____40mph_______________ 800lbs ______________________________1.2 seconds

Mt. Lion ________ 50mph_______________ 220lbs_______________________________1.02 seconds

Lion _____________50mph________________419lbs ______________________________1.02 seconds

Cape Buffalo____ 35mph________________1910lbs_____________________________1.46 seconds

Leopard _________37mph ________________159lbs______________________________1.38 seconds
 
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104 Cases Of Handguns Used For Bear Defense Worldwide Documented By Caliber

This is part of research which began in 2016, with first published data released in 2018. If I am not mistaken, the current total is the 205 cases mentioned above in post #348 and also mentioned earlier in this thread. They reported every known and documented instance where a handgun was the only firearm fired in defense of life and property (DLP) against bears. Some animals were turned away by warning shots, many animals continued toward or turned toward shooter after warning shots.

This post is about the 2021 update of an additional 104 documented cases of handgun only defenses against bears SORTED BY CALIBER AND SUCCESS RATE. I believe these 104 cases are part of the 205 current total mentioned earlier in this thread and elsewhere.

I find it interesting that some of the information presented in this data was only gained from government records pursuant to "freedom of information requests." It seems like the official position, of the US government at least, is that the public should use bear spray, while they give government personnel permission to carry firearms in wilderness areas on official business, including handguns. This only proves that governments are ruled by committees, and the best definition of a committee is a group with at least 3 heads, 6 legs, and NO BRAIN.

In the data listed below, "The criteria for success are: After the pistol or handgun was fired, did the bear stop the attack, leave, or was killed?"

Link to a description of each of the 104 cases where caliber was identified:

2021 update to handgun defense data

1. -
"We found seven cases involving a .22 rimfire pistol. Six were successful, against black bears. One failed against a polar bear."

2. - "We found one case involving a .380 pistol. It was successful."

3. - "We found seven cases where 9 mm pistols were used to defend against bears. All were successful."

4. - "We found one case involving a 9.3 x 18 Makarov pistol, in Russia."

5. - "We found three cases involving a .38 revolver, probably .38 S&W special. One was successful against a grizzly. Two were against black bears. One was a failure, one a success."

6. - "We have found eight cases where .357 magnum revolvers were used to defend against bears. Seven were successful, one was unsuccessful."

7. - "We have found four cases where .40 caliber pistols were used to defend against bears. All were successful."

8. - "We have found three cases where a 10 mm pistol was used to defend against bears. All were successful."

9. - "We have found four cases where .41 magnum revolvers were used to defend against bears. All were successful."

10. - "We have found two cases, both successful, where a .44-40 was used to defend against a bear."

11. - "We have found thirty cases where .44 magnum revolvers were used to defend against bears. All were successful."

12. - "We have found nine cases where .45 caliber pistols were used to defend against bears. All were successful." (mostly 45 acp)

- "We found that one of the previous .45 cases was done with a .45 Colt/.410 revolver, the Taurus Judge."

13. - "We have found one case where .45 Super pistol was used to defend against a bear. It was successful."

14. - "We have found four cases where .454 Casull revolver was used to defend against a bear. They were successful."

15. - "We have found one case where a .460 Smith & Wesson magnum was used successfully."

16. - "We have found one case where a .500 Smith & Wesson magnum was used successfully."

17. **** "We have found sixteen cases where the handguns used to defend against bears were not identified. Fifteen were successful. One was undetermined." ****

*** Not counting the 22's, of these 104 cases where caliber is known, there were nearly 4 times as many revolvers carried as semi-autos, 16 were semi-autos, 53 were revolvers.

*** Several of the semi-auto incidents were by LEO's in the line of duty and they compelled to used their service weapons at the crucial moment, so they were not carrying a weapon of choice for bear protection. In all candor, several of these cases, whether semi-auto or revolver, were just people using whatever was at hand when the attack occurred.

*** There were nearly twice as many 44mags used (30) as all semi-autos combined (16) and 10 times more 44mags(30) than the 10mm (3) in this sample of cases.

*** There were nearly 4 times as many 44mags(30) used as the next most numerous caliber, (tie between 357mag and 45acp at 8 each).

*** Out of these 104 cases, calibers are known in 88 cases. Of the 88 cases where caliber is known, 52 cases were 41 caliber or greater (59%), mostly revolvers except for a few 45acp’s.

From another subset of 161 cases of the 205 total cases of handgun defense against bears where the number of shots fired was documented, the following data is interesting:

80.8 percent of the cases required 6 shots or less. Usually larger calibers requiring fewer shots, as one would expect.

54.1 percent of the cases required 3 shots or less.

28.6 percent of the cases required only 1 shot.

Many thanks and great appreciation to writer Dean Weingarten who collected and published all this great data that we get to fumble around with here, and many thanks to ammoland.com for publishing the data.

Of course these are random numbers from random events, so no real firm or precise conclusions can be taken from them because there are too many unknown variables, but these cases (104) do represent a little more than half the documented cases available for examination (205).

The 44mag is still the most common handgun caliber carried and used for bear defense, by several orders of magnitude. There are probably good reasons for that.

Most people also used revolvers over semi-autos, also by several orders of magnitude. There are probably good reasons for that.

Although most people (like me) like to carry bigger revolvers more often for bear protection, most all calibers and handgun types have very high success rates by caliber, and 98% effective overall for bear defense, even 22lr, although sample sizes are understandably low for most calibers other than 44mag.

98% SUCCESS WITH ALL HANDGUNS, I FIND THAT AMAZING, I WOULD HAVE NEVER GUESSED THAT!!!!!

Although several animals had to be shot 10 or more times, especially with smaller calibers, and didn’t stop attacking until their CNS was taken out (brain or spine shot), MOST bears turned and ran off after 1,2, or 3 shots, especially from larger calibers.

I ALSO FIND THIS AMAZING CONSIDERING THE BEARS WERE 4X TO 10X BIGGER THAN THE PEOPLE SHOOTING THEM, AND MANY WERE NOT FATALLY WOUNDED, AND MOST REQUIRE LARGE CALIBER, POWERFUL RIFLES, TO ACTUALLY KILL THEM WHEN THEY ARE HUNTED. THERE ARE MANY CASES OF HUNTERS MAULED OR KILLED BY BEARS USING LARGE CALIBER RIFLES.

Although these statistics are against bears, not African DG, bears ARE among the largest, fastest, and most dangerous fauna on the planet. There are some correlations which can be drawn between bears and African DG.

Many of these handgun shootings against bears were actual charges, many by grizzlies or brown bears, which are nearly as fast and twice as big as lions and heavier built than lions.

Some were against polar bears which are half as fast as lions, but 3 times larger, and MUCH heavier built than lions, closer in size and speed to cape buffalo, and arguably as determined and aggressive as cape buffalo. Polar bears are certainly the most determined, fearless, and aggressive of the bears. However, even polar bears are still not nearly as thick skinned and heavily built as cape buffalo.

From all indications, grizzly bears and polar bears are at least as aggressive and tenacious of life as lions, and quick to attack people in their area if surprised or provoked. Usually, if you shoot one of these 3 animals, they are coming for you and must be stopped. I would not put black bears in the same category. Black bears seem rather easy to turn with a handgun, ESPECIALLY A BIG CALIBER HANDGUN (in 6 out of 6 reported instances, black bears were actually successfully turned even with a 22lr handguns.). Black bears do kill people (mostly unarmed people) and eat them, and are often substantially bigger than lions (20 percent bigger on average.) WHO KNOWS WHAT THE STATICS WOULD BE AGAINST LIONS WITH HANDGUNS, IF SIMILAR NUMBER OF CASES WERE AVAILABLE FOR HANDGUNS.

Since the OP’s question was about charge stopping African DG with handguns, there are some definite factors that contribute to VERY FEW if ANY cases reported from handgun use in Africa in DLP cases, from which to drawn ANY conclusions.

* Laws requiring minimum calibers for DG, all rifle calibers, in most African countries.

* Laws limiting firearm ownership/possession in general, and handgun ownership/possession in particular, in many African countries.

* Laws requiring PH’s be present for safety while hunting DG (i.e for charge stopping), and limiting what PH can use to rifles only, in many African countries.

* Laws limiting what visiting hunters/tourists can possess for protection, hunt with, or travel with, which can become more complicated with handguns, or multiple guns, cause many visiting hunters and nearly all tourists to leave the handguns at home. Many if not most of the handgun defense cases against bears were in non-hunting circumstances.

THEREFORE, AFRICAN CASES USING HANDGUNS IN DLP, MUCH LESS CHARGE STOPPING CASES, ARE ALMOST NON-EXISTANT.

Therefore, non-African cases of handguns used in similar situations against similar DG, are the ONLY CASES WITH ENOUGH DOCUMENTED REPORTS TO BEGIN TO DRAW ANY REAL WORLD CONCLUSIONS.


All of this reminds me of a famous Mark Twain quote. “ There are lies, then there are damned lies, then there are statistics.”

BUT sometimes statistics are the best we have, and are very informative and helpful.
 
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