African price wars!

[wesheltonj]

I feel your pain, with the devalued Rand. Some of my pre-hunt hotels raised prices to make up the loss, while others did not (location, location, location). Just Supply and Demand working, its not perfect, because their are alway ways to manipulate the market. My hunt was priced out in Dollars and it stayed static, thankfully, but it was at a premium to begin with. The saving grace was this operator only charged 1/2 the daily non-hunter rate for my daughter whereas all the other operators considered her an adult.

In general, a seller of goods must find some way to stand out from the others and, "create" demand. i.e.: low price, super luxury, etc. Just my 2 cents.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Jaco,

Not sure where you get the NA numbers. The only outfitter I would use in Alaska from Brown Bear is closer to $28K boat based, 4 star lodging and food. Quality Alaska Black Bear are around $6,500 - $7,500. Elk, I can do horseback for $4,900 to $5,900 or ranch for $7,500.

For me, the only 'cheap hunt' I would even consider would be coming over to cull a bunch of baboons! Otherwise, I'm going to shop for what I personally define as the best value and go from there.

John

Give or take a bit here and it still proves my point thanks.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Yes and I know some of it is just you venting. You just need to remember it is unrealistic pricing to you not everyone else.

What you look as bad I look at maybe some new hunter will get to good to africa now and have his dream hunt.

I have told you more then once I am happy for you if you can sale your hunts for top dollar. You put the time and money in to getting that market. Just dont hate on someone who goes after the working mans market and prices it for them and is happy making his living doing it.

Bill, I am mid range on 80% of what I sell, my leopard are expensive as they should be but there are more expensive leopard out there.
A $12k buff sable combo is not realistic in my opinion, and I believe it hurts us more than doing good. They'll probably sell 30 and only have 4....
Customer satisfavtion then becomes an issue and it reflects on all of us.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

They'll probably sell 30 and only have 4....

Please clarify what you mean by that Jaco. Are you saying they'll sell 30 buff hunts with only 4 animals on the property?

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Please clarify what you mean by that Jaco. Are you saying they'll sell 30 buff hunts with only 4 animals on the property?

Correct Phil I had a South African tell me this two days ago, he was extremely worried, and did not know what he was going to do.....

 

[Royal27]

Correct Phil I had a South African tell me this two days ago, he was extremely worried, and did not know what he was going to do.....

Sounds like another supply and demand issue.

Someone is going to demand that guy to get some supply!!!!

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Correct Phil I had a South African tell me this two days ago, he was extremely worried, and did not know what he was going to do.....

Wow

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

This where the problem comes in he sells allot at a unrealistic market price, it's so bad he can't even buy a buff and still show a good profit, client returns SA sucks and we carry on..,..
Unacceptable.

 

[thi9elsp]

Can he even get enough properties to let him bring his 'marks' to hunt? And, how can he describe the properties - size, etc.? That is a mess that is going to get really ugly fast.

 

[Brent in Az]

Did this outfitter spend the deposit money? Sending a refund to 26 potentially angry customers might be the best course of action.

 

[billc]

I think who ever said they sold 30 buff hunt is full of it. Unless he was giving them away at next to nothing.

The main point even if he did sell 30 of them this has nothing to with price it has to do with a scumbag outfitter selling something he does not have. So again it is up to the person doing the selling not the cost.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

I think who ever said they sold 30 buff hunt is full of it. Unless he was giving them away a next to nothing.

The main point even if he did sell 30 of them this has nothing to with price it has to do with a scumbag outfitter selling something he does not have. So again it is up to the person doing the selling not the cost.

If he said he sold 10 of them at $40K a piece, would you say he was full of it based off the price?

 

[James.Grage]

Joco & Simon

If I am reading this correctly, Hunts are priced to obtain customers.

Hunt are Priced in US Dollars not Rands from what I have observed. Therefore the exchange rate does not come into play, as hunters we pay in USD. However, if we take a was of Rands bills with us it does makes a difference. Again all my safaris have been paid in USD, and all hunts that I have looked at were in USD. As a client, just tell me what the cost will be and I will make a informed decision.

All Safari companies - PH's - are looking to fit into a slot that they target:
1. extremely Low cost ... looking to sell a lot of hunts with the lowest profit margin.
2. Low Cost ... Looking to sell hunts with a low profit margin.
3. Middle of the Road Safari Cost ... profit margin is marginal, however good.
4. Upper middle Cost safari... Profit margin is good to above average.
5. Upper end safaris ... good profit margin.

The above different business are all targeting different clients... for one operation to confront another is out of line... unless there operation is moving into a different price slot. You are looking for a different clientele and trying to attract clients to your business.

The number of USA hunter traveling to Africa has been dropping the past few years and like others have indicated, it is supply and demand. From the Stats that I have seen it is a loss of over 10,000 hunters and closer to 15,000. So there are fewer hunter for a lot of business to target. From my reading of various articles, the lines 1 - 3 were the hardest hit in booking African hunts.

I have taken a few African hunts and I look for a reputable operation to do business with. And my next trip will be more narrowly focused, by different country and different trophy's to go after.

It is surprising (probably not) that I have looked at both your operations for a future sojourn.

 

[billc]

If he said he sold 10 of them at $40K a piece, would you say he was full of it based off the price?

Sure would say the same. Unless he booked them at dsc,sci and other shows 30 is a bunch of hunts to sell let alone 30 buff hunts. The harrisburg show were jaco is at now does not move those types of hunts in those numbers.

And again I dont care if it is true or not the cost has nothing to do with someone selling something they dont have. That would be fraud nothing more.

 

[jeff]

I would think that outfits selling hunts for things they do not have would be rare. On bargain hunts that I've been on there was always huntable numbers of the game I came to hunt. There are always a few crooks in any businesses.

 

[AB2506]

I can't comment on any African country except for South Africa.

It is my understanding that more and more landowners are raising wild game and some are even becoming outfitters. This is putting a downward pressure on pricing as the competition for a limited number of international hunters heats up.

Looking at the prices paid at auction for various animals in the RSA, they look ludicrous. It reminds me of various get rich schemes here in NA. The first into the fad for pot belly pigs, emus, lamas etc, made out like bandits, the poor guys who bought in later, had no market as there is always a saturation point and then the prices plummet. I have always felt that the trade in breeding stock was unsustainable.

I have heard that some pressure is being bought to bear that there be a fixed cost for various species, the rationale being that a kudu in the Limpopo should be priced the same as in the Eastern Cape. Again, in my mind, that makes little sense. Costs may be less in the EC, but the experience may be different than in the Limpopo. I will select on the experience I want and the outfitter/PH. I will budget for the price differential.

It will seem to me that in a few years, a lot of outfitters will have fallen by the wayside, especially with the fallout from Cecil.

Just my thoughts.

 

[BRICKBURN]

This where the problem comes in he sells allot at a unrealistic market price, it's so bad he can't even buy a buff and still show a good profit, client returns SA sucks and we carry on..,..
Unacceptable.

I think that unacceptable is an understatement.
Sounds like another Rhinocon.
Selling animals they have no rights to. It's illegal and obviously stupid. That type of operator should be investigated and put out of business to save the South African Outfitting industry.
Report:

Wildlife Trade and Regulation
http://www.ledet.gov.za/?page_id=968#
Contact for the Waterberg
Mr. LP Makhura +2714 717 1055

If you think he is a really bad guy call these guys.

National Wildlife Crime Reaction Unit
0827728343

HAWKS
0795166110

 

[Hank2211]

I think that unacceptable is an understatement.
Sounds like another Rhinocon.
Selling animals they have no rights to. It's illegal and obviously stupid. That type of operator should be investigated and put out of business to save the South African Outfitting industry.
Report:

Wildlife Trade and Regulation
http://www.ledet.gov.za/?page_id=968#
Contact for the Waterberg
Mr. LP Makhura +2714 717 1055

If you think he is a really bad guy call these guys.

National Wildlife Crime Reaction Unit
0827728343

HAWKS
0795166110

But at the lower end, Wayne, I could easily see someone selling hunts for animals he doesn't have. There's enough of a market in South Africa that once he sells the hunt, he locates the animal, puts it on the property and Bob's your uncle. Not my idea of hunting, but a pretty low cost way to do business. You don't have to own land, just have a place you can take people. You don't have to own animals, just have to know where you can get them. You only "rent" the land once the hunt is sold, and you only buy the animal once the hunt is sold. I think there are plenty of landowners who know nothing about marketing, especially in foreign countries, who would be happy to sell a springbok for half the regular trophy fee, rather than the meat value. Or to let you use their land for a price.

This only becomes a problem when Mr. Low Cost sells hunts at a price that won't allow him to buy the animals he needs to fulfill his obligations, or if he never intended to. The first is a business set to go under, the second is a fraud.

In either case, due diligence should protect a prospective hunter. But there are times when low cost will blind people. I'd say if you have done your homework, you should've an idea what "market" is for an animal, and if you find something way below market, warning flags should go up. It may be legit, but you should do more work.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Sure would say the same. Unless he booked them at dsc,sci and other shows 30 is a bunch of hunts to sell let alone 30 buff hunts. The harrisburg show were jaco is at now does not move those types of hunts in those numbers.

And again I dont care if it is true or not the cost has nothing to do with someone selling something they dont have. That would be fraud nothing more.

If an outfitter is selling hunts for which there is no game, it doesn't matter what price he sold it at, he's a fraud as you say. But I can't help but believe that if an outfitter sells 30 buff hunts in one show season, whether he has them available or not, an excessively low price came into play, that price is a part of the story.

Did this outfitter start out the show season intending to sell that many buffs knowing he did not have the animals to support that many hunts? I'm guessing no, I'd guess he's going to work his ass off to make sure he has the supply on hand when the clients show up. Whether he can or not, sounds pretty questionable. But my point is that if this all got started in the first place with an excessively low price, look what it lead to. I don't want to speak for @Jaco Strauss, but I think this is the point he's trying to make.

 

[siml]

Jaco, it's going to be a hard season for most of us. I have been around long enough and have weathered enough storms, 911 caused major damage to mention one of many, but we survived. I just don't want to be caught out like the hunchback, we have to adapt to the market. If we look at SA, worst drought in 40 years, game ranches in a lot of places aren't going to have enough food for the winter, would you rather get some money for the animals or just let them die. There are many reasons why people have dropped prices. Yes, I also don't like seeing sable going for 4500$ but what can I do about that......nothing, doesn't help if I try and throw my toys out the kot. If you look say 15 years back, you were lucky if you saw a ph with a new average type pick up. Nowadays every second ph just about has a new Landcruiser never mind average pickup. Money was being made, like all businesses, there are good years and there are bad years. Don't worry what the other guys are doing concentrate on what you do best.

And Jaco I do hope you have a successful season and it works out for you.