A Very Disturbing Lion Hunt

Discussion in 'Hunting Videos' started by Christina Nyczepir, Sep 24, 2016.

  1. Royal27

    Royal27 AH ENABLER AH Ambassador

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    So to clarify - I think you're saying that at the time of the hunt that shooting from a truck was legal, and that the law has changed now.

    And great point on right before CITES....
     

  2. Hank2211

    Hank2211 AH ENABLER GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    The young lady in the videos which @BRICKBURN posted is Erin Janus. She calls herself: "a passionate vegan, YouTuber, director, journalist and aspiring musician. Please share this video with family, friends and on social media . . ." and right next to that request, is a request for donations.

    There is nothing wrong with being a vegan, or even in deciding that killing animals is immoral. There is something wrong in deliberately circulating misleading information - propaganda as Brickburn says - in order to make money or name for oneself. And that seems to be what this is about.

    She has a similar video attacking the dairy industry (as well as others attacking other industries), and a rebuttal can be found online addressing those particular attacks.

    I have little doubt that when all of the facts are looked at, including Simon's contribution, our lion hunt cameraman is exactly the same. Follow the money.

    But that doesn't change the fact that many people will see the video, or read the story, and form a misguided but nevertheless negative impression of lion hunting in South Africa. I believe this was Christina's original point, and one which is entirely valid. I suggest at least two solutions:

    1. I hate to say this, but South Africa could learn a lesson from Uncle Bob (who'd have thought?!!). After Cecil, Zimbabwe passed a law making it a crime to deliberately attack the economic interests of the country, including hunting. It is not censorship to require that fiction be labeled as such. South Africa could pass such a law.

    2. More to the point, as has been said, make sure that you and only you have rights to any of the images of your hunt taped by anyone. Make sure that the contract provides that the parties agree that you can apply for an injunction to prohibit the showing of your images without your consent. And you can even go further and include what lawyers call a "liquidated damages" clause - putting a price on a breach of the contract.

    A picture may still be worth a thousand words, but whoever said pictures don't lie wasn't up on current video technology.
     
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  3. gizmo

    gizmo AH ENABLER SPONSOR Since 2015 AH Ambassador

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    The fact is it's nonsense like this that is the reason we are loosing this fight. Hell, we can't agree amongst ourselves much less unite to fight the anti's.
    Hunters in general are very bad about applying their ethics to a situation and feeling that theirs is the only right answer. Here's the thing, hunting this that or the other may or may not be ones thing, and that's fine. But far too often because one doesn't agree with it they start fighting against it. This is where I have a problem. There are certain things I wouldn't do and don't agree with but.... As long as it's legal and not inhumane than I keep my opinion to myself. Just because I might not want to hunt a certain way doesn't mean that I'm right and someone else is wrong. Example: I am a bow hunter and an avid one at that. I disagree with bow hunting elephant and rhino, that being said I don't have a problem with other people doing it. While I would love to hunt both mentioned animals I wouldn't do it with a bow as I feel it's not fair to the animal if I screw up. Even a good shot on the two goes bad sometimes. I would never look down upon someone for doing it though. It's not my cup of tea but they have every right to do that where it is legal and I would always wish them all the success in the world with their indevour. I damn sure wouldn't jump on a band wagon to crucify people for doing it and I assuredly wouldn't post half truths, whole lies, and misinformation about it. That solves nothing.
     

  4. BRICKBURN

    BRICKBURN AH ENABLER SUPER MODERATOR CONTRIBUTOR LIFETIME TITANIUM BENEFACTOR AH Ambassador

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    Hank, I would agree with part of your assessment.
    People will take this crap and form negative opinions, that is the sole intent of the video thief.


    Without determining the illegality of the actions it was promulgated along with the OP's negative conclusions that supported the video thief's premise. Naive.

    The OP's assessment. OK. That was the video thief's intent.

    The EXPECTATION that MEMBERS would ALL agree and be as upset and be as outraged as the OP. (Which was really the video editors purpose: To suck in anyone willing to listen to the propaganda)

    The Outfitter is blamed, ie. the bait was taken HOOK LINE AND SINKER.
    The propaganda worked like a charm on a new hunter.

    As Hank said and I agree vehemently, that we need to stop giving anyone the ammunition by ensuring that OUR videos remain OUR videos and return the thieves into the dirt from whence they came..

    AND WHAT DID WE ALL LEARN FROM THE LATEST ENCOUNTER?
     
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  5. Hank2211

    Hank2211 AH ENABLER GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    Well, I learned that it used to be legal to hunt from a vehicle in the Northwest Province, but that it isn't anymore. A good day's work, that.
     

  6. Wheels

    Wheels AH ENABLER AH Ambassador

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    Ethics are all individual. We may agree on some or disagree on some, but in the end, they are individual.

    When the majority in a society share the same ethics, society becomes outraged when there is a perceived violation of societies ethics.

    At that point, society makes rules regarding ethics and calls it law, which carries a punishment to those that break societies "ethics".

    In the end, we are all human and have free choice. We will never completely agree on the definition of what is ethical.
     
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  7. Christina Nyczepir

    Christina Nyczepir AH Enthusiast

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    So, now that you have attacked me for bringing this video up, and attacked the camera man....I conclude from the remarks of the few on this post (getting back to the original question), that you are okay with this type of hunt as long as it is legal? Such as shooting a lion in a warthog hole? Can you even see where to place the shot? These are rhetorical questions. Not meant to be condescending either.

    It is in watching the whole hunt, and seeing how it was conducted, that I struggle with and find wrong. Legal or not. I apologize for assuming it was illegal, based on the second video and the comments from other PHs saying it was, if it is in fact not illegal. Though, I still don't understand why that even matters.

    Fortunately, there are others who feel just as strongly about it as I do. I appreciate your thoughts on the hunt specifically. And I stand on sharing this video on my Facebook page. I don't ever want my friends to experience such a hunt, and to be put in a questionable position to take a bad shot under the encouragement of any PH. They need to be warned on who to do business with. To research, fully, their Outfitter and the animal they will be hunting. And, fortunately, I don't know any Outfitter or PH, personally, who would ever conduct such a hunt as this one. I've received messages and comments from other thanking me for sharing it. That it needed to be seen. I also see other Outfitters and PHs sharing it as well in outrage over how the hunt was conducted. Lessons learned.
     

  8. gizmo

    gizmo AH ENABLER SPONSOR Since 2015 AH Ambassador

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    I think the point is that 1. Stating something is illegal and getting the lynch mob ready is absolutely wrong when that isn't the fact. 2. If it is legal who are we to judge. 3. What purpose does it serve to spread miss information. 4. By who's standards are you judging 5. Why would you want to start a melicious rumor that could not only hurt the industry but an outfitter who did nothing legally wrong. 6. Ethics are individual, I certainly am not going to judge someone and start an attack or smear campaign against someone who was operating within the law. I say this understanding that you or I may not agree with the way it was done not personally do that but..... The point is still the same. 7. Nothing is gained by helping the anti's spread rhetoric. 8. Once a rumor and lie, whether well intentioned or not, is started it doesn't go away in these situations and often blows up into a much worse thing. I can go on and on.
    You have the right to your opinion and I respect that but.... Assume someone made an issue out of your buffalo hunt and wanted to crucify you over it. Would your view change then. That is not meant as a slam toward you in anyway but that's the point. Others will Monday morning quarterback you all day long and crucify you for it because at the end of the day you pulled the trigger. They take nothing into account of the circumstances that were involved outside of that. I hope you see the point I'm trying to make and not take it as a personal attack as that is not nor has been my intention.
    You posted this as a discussion for people to share their feelings. People have with a wide variety of feelings. Getting upset because they don't agree with you is a gamble you take anytime something is posted on an open forum.
     
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  9. billc

    billc AH ENABLER SILVER SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    I don't see anyone here saying they are happy with how it all happened. But who have you helped by bringing this all back to life. Have you helped hunters or the antis with a post like this. Like it or not ,you or I do not get to pick how everyone hunts.

    You don't like this and I don't think much of anyone who hunts a raised sable as I find it to easy. So let me go give that info to some anti's so they can run with it and hurt us all or maybe I just don't put down your hunt or comment on it just because I don't like it. Again you don't need to like it so go send the hunters hate mail and the outfitter to. Then send a letter to phasa so they can smack his hand and look the other way.

    Sometimes letting things from the past go is the best way period end of story.
     

  10. gizmo

    gizmo AH ENABLER SPONSOR Since 2015 AH Ambassador

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  11. billc

    billc AH ENABLER SILVER SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    yup that is it right there. No need to kick it once it has calmed down.
     
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  12. Hank2211

    Hank2211 AH ENABLER GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    Christina, I appreciate that you found this hunt distasteful, and perhaps even unethical. And you want to know how the rest of us feel.

    I don't believe that my feelings about some else's hunt, so long as it's legal, is of any importance or relevance. It requires me to substitute my judgement for someone else's, my values for someone else's, and my ethics for someone else's. I was more than happy to do that many years ago, when I was young and everything was black and white, and I was not always right but I was never in doubt. But as I've gotten a bit older and a lot greyer, I've discovered that values-based disagreements almost never result in a satisfactory conclusion for everyone, so I have adopted an attitude of "do what you think is ethical, and as long as it's legal, and you don't try to force me to watch or participate, I will keep my opinions to myself."

    You make the point, though, that this video will upset non-hunters and may turn some against us who might otherwise be allies. I agree, but then I think that a video of any lion hunt, even one you might agree with, would likely have the same effect on most non-hunters. My experience is that most non-hunters (and I include my daughter) find it distasteful in the extreme to watch animals die. They don't stop to worry about the legalities or ethics, they just don't like it. So while having this video online won't help our cause, replacing it with an "ethical" video (from your perspective) would likely have the same result with the people you're talking about. It won't help out cause either.

    So the solution, to the extent there is one, is to keep our pictures and videos to ourselves and those we know will not be disturbed by them, and not to distribute someone else's video without their approval or to the broader non-hunting community.
     
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  13. TallGrassHunter

    TallGrassHunter AH Veteran

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    If those lions were domesticated, why didn't they just lay on the front porch until diner. Also,wouldn't you rather the lion population be subsidized instead of depleted?
     

  14. LivingTheDream

    LivingTheDream AH Legend

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    So we have determined that this is anti proproganda, that the cameraman is probably paid by an anti hunting group and was release right before cities to impact all lion hunting and imports. And you are still ok with sharing this. Did you talk to the outfitter? Or the PHs? Did you PM, me, Gizmo, Billc and many many others here that have hunted captive breed lions and asked us about our hunts and how it was an actually hunt. Or did you just turn off a bunch of new hunters to a particular type of hunting due to one video from a lying cameraman!!

    Let me make this very clear regardless of the ethics, who has PMd you with support, or any other feel good nonsense. YOU ARE SPREADING THE ANTI's MESSAGE, AND HELPING TAKE AWAY HUNTERS RIGHTS!!! This is why someone called you an anti, because you are spreading their message. If you are proud of that as a hunter, I have a message for everyone here....hunt as much as can while you can because we are all screwed.
     
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  15. LivingTheDream

    LivingTheDream AH Legend

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    @Christina Nyczepir I know I am coming across as strong but I do think your heart is the right place.
     
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  16. TallGrassHunter

    TallGrassHunter AH Veteran

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    Perhaps Christina's time would be of more value exposing the deplorable behavior of the antis. After all, in our entirety we haven't killed the amount of cats peta has.
     
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