A question about side by side shotguns & rifled slugs

[F. Vaccaro]

Will extended use of rifled slugs in a SXS shotgun cause the rib or bbls to separate?
I had in mind something like a coach gun, poor mans double rifle?
Thanks.

 

[Fixfire]

Hmmm good question. I have and old L C Smith. I’ll wait for the experts.

 

[Fixfire]

…..I’m strictly a clay and upland guy. Never shot slugs in any off my shotguns.

 

[rookhawk]

Will extended use of rifled slugs in a SXS shotgun cause the rib or bbls to separate?
I had in mind something like a coach gun, poor mans double rifle?
Thanks.

Not really. What factors would separate barrel ribs would be:

1.) Overpressure and overpowered loads

2.) Extended length slugs made from monometals

There is a lot more to a double rifle than taking a shotgun and shooting slugs out of it. The regulating wedge and sights aren’t a trivial matter. There were many sighted shotguns sold as buck-and-ball guns that provided 50 yard accuracy. Far fewer were fully rifled bore-rifles or partially rifled paradox rifles. Building one is a great way to spend $4000 or more to end up with a gun worth $800. I’ve seen a few and the original owners all regretted it.

 

[WebleyGreene455]

Some time ago I asked Major Khan about his thoughts on using a German drilling as a leopard-gun, with a 9.3x72r in the rifled barrel and a pair of 12ga slugs in the smoothbores. At the time we considered the 9.3x72r barrel might have been a mislabeled 9.3x74r, and I think we briefly discussed the idea of rechambering the rifled barrel to the more potent x74r. It was his opinion that the two 12ga slugs would certainly get the job done of killing the leopard or being a good way to finish it off if the rifle round didn't do the trick and you had to follow it.

But the discussion of the 12ga barrels was related to close-in coup-de-grace work, not as a substitute for a true double rifle. As a poor man's double (or triple, as the case may be with a drilling), a sxs shotgun with slugs is doable within a certain range on a certain level of game, but it's not going to give you the same accuracy or power that a true double rifle will.

What you might could do for a "poor man's double" is take a sxs shotgun and only rifle one barrel or have it sleeved or some such and make a "poor man's cape gun". Cape guns were kinda the poorer man's doubles, able to hold a shotshell in the one side and a rifle round (I've seen a 12ga/.577-.450 Martini one somewhere or other), usually used by gamekeepers or by hunters who might be looking for X to use the rifle on but then find Y that they'd want a shotgun for.

I make no guarantee that having your own cape gun made from an sxs would work very well but it's a thought, y'know?

 

[Hunter-Habib]

If it has no chokes, then no.

Also if it's a German made shotgun such as this 1937 made 12 gauge (2 3/4") B.S.W scalloped boxlock ejector (basically a Nazi era Simpson)... Then, it's 99% of the time actually regulated to produce fairly accurate groups out to 40-45 yards with German Brenneke Original style slugs. Same goes with the French Robust shotguns that were made by Manu-France.

But Spanish, English, Belgian, Italian and American side by side shotgun manufacturers (such as AyA, Westley Richards, Auguste Francotte, Beretta and Savage) almost always discourage the use of slugs in their choked shotgun barrels. And I know of at least one double barreled side by side shotgun from each of the aforementioned companies which had a barrel bulge due to firing slugs.

 

[Randy Bo]

Will extended use of rifled slugs in a SXS shotgun cause the rib or bbls to separate?
I had in mind something like a coach gun, poor mans double rifle?
Thanks.

Thanks for asking this question. I have thought about a new CZ Bobwhite G2….And the possibility of slugs for playing around.

 

[Fixfire]

Great info. My LC patterns 12GA practically perfectly at 40 yards, probably as planned from factory.

 

[F. Vaccaro]

Great info. My LC patterns 12GA practically perfectly at 40 yards, probably as planned from factory.

Slugs?

 

[Fixfire]

No, shot-shells

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Will extended use of rifled slugs in a SXS shotgun cause the rib or bbls to separate?
I had in mind something like a coach gun, poor mans double rifle?
Thanks.

@F. Vaccaro
We put hundreds and hundreds of slugs thru a 12 gauge Rossi coach gun plus 1st barrel with buck shot and nothing moved. Rig was tight action was tight no problems.
Our friend @major Potin Kahn put Moe slogs and buckshot as well a shot for greylings over a lifetime of hunting. This was done thru his beloved Belgium SXS. He even used Breneke Blal magic slugs in later years. It was his constant companion throughout his professional guiding career and he still uses it to this day on hunts with @sgt Kirshik Raman.
During 60 years the good major never experienced a problem.
Slugs are designed to fit even a full choke without damage to the gun but I got best accuracy with a modified choke using slugs.
Bob

 

[270Guy]

If it has no chokes, then no.

Also if it's a German made shotgun such as this 1937 made 12 gauge (2 3/4") B.S.W scalloped boxlock ejector (basically a Nazi era Simpson)... Then, it's 99% of the time actually regulated to produce fairly accurate groups out to 40-45 yards with German Brenneke Original style slugs. Same goes with the French Robust shotguns that were made by Manu-France.
View attachment 487932

But Spanish, English, Belgian, Italian and American side by side shotgun manufacturers (such as AyA, Westley Richards, Auguste Francotte, Beretta and Savage) almost always discourage the use of slugs in their choked shotgun barrels. And I know of at least one double barreled side by side shotgun from each of the aforementioned companies which had a barrel bulge due to firing slugs.

I really do wonder why,i had a Lyons & Lyons Invisible Paradox Shotgun,it was a Sidelock SxS,was bought in 1950s, basically a Trade Gun,whatever little info i could get it was built for Army Navy, used to gimme very good groups shooting Slugs till 50 yards, excellent shooting Shot from 7.5 to LGs. Regarding shooting slugs out of a Choke barrel,Slugs here are 85% Lead and 15% Antimony,the German - Spanish one we shot also the same.Overusing Slugs might hurt Extra Full or Turkey Choke Barrel,but the ones with Half Choke, would it????

 

[Hunter-Habib]

I really do wonder why,i had a Lyons & Lyons Invisible Paradox Shotgun,it was a Sidelock SxS,was bought in 1950s, basically a Trade Gun,whatever little info i could get it was built for Army Navy, used to gimme very good groups shooting Slugs till 50 yards, excellent shooting Shot from 7.5 to LGs. Regarding shooting slugs out of a Choke barrel,Slugs here are 85% Lead and 15% Antimony,the German - Spanish one we shot also the same.Overusing Slugs might hurt Extra Full or Turkey Choke Barrel,but the ones with Half Choke, would it????

270Guy, I think you made an innocent mistake somewhere. Lyon & Lyon closed down in 1929. And they never made any firearms (and certainly not for Army & Navy). Rather Westley Richards and Midland Gun Co. made firearms FOR THEM. See ?

This is a 12 gauge 3” (Paper cased Magnum) bar action side by side hammer shotgun (proofed for 42 grams of lead shot) which Midland Gun Co. built for Lyon & Lyon in 1928. Hence the words on the rib “Expressly Made For Lyon & Lyon Calcutta”.

Getting accurate groups with slugs out of a Paradox Gun is very plausible. Because those were bored to throw improved cylinder patterns, anyway. And they were specifically designed with firing slugs in mind.

You can fire slugs through choked shotguns, as long as the diameter of the slug is smaller than the tightest part of the shotgun barrel (i.e the chokes). That’s why Eley used to (until 1981) load their their 12 gauge ( 2 1/2”) Grand Prix spherical ball shells with 16 gauge round balls. So that the spherical ball could easily pass through the tightest of fully choked 12 gauge shotguns without causing any strain on the chokes.

 

[steve white]

Some time ago I asked Major Khan about his thoughts on using a German drilling as a leopard-gun, with a 9.3x72r in the rifled barrel and a pair of 12ga slugs in the smoothbores. At the time we considered the 9.3x72r barrel might have been a mislabeled 9.3x74r, and I think we briefly discussed the idea of rechambering the rifled barrel to the more potent x74r. It was his opinion that the two 12ga slugs would certainly get the job done of killing the leopard or being a good way to finish it off if the rifle round didn't do the trick and you had to follow it.

But the discussion of the 12ga barrels was related to close-in coup-de-grace work, not as a substitute for a true double rifle. As a poor man's double (or triple, as the case may be with a drilling), a sxs shotgun with slugs is doable within a certain range on a certain level of game, but it's not going to give you the same accuracy or power that a true double rifle will.

What you might could do for a "poor man's double" is take a sxs shotgun and only rifle one barrel or have it sleeved or some such and make a "poor man's cape gun". Cape guns were kinda the poorer man's doubles, able to hold a shotshell in the one side and a rifle round (I've seen a 12ga/.577-.450 Martini one somewhere or other), usually used by gamekeepers or by hunters who might be looking for X to use the rifle on but then find Y that they'd want a shotgun for.

I make no guarantee that having your own cape gun made from an sxs would work very well but it's a thought, y'know?

Glad you didn't try to rechamber to the 9.3x74--there is usually JUST enough meat in the chamber of any drilling with none to spare to be safe. They always save all the weight they can. But I hear you brother since I myself once asked a gunsmith about it--he was a curmudgeon anyway, but that question really set him on a rant against the idea.

 

[steve white]

Many if not most drillings were actually regulated for (probably original Breneke type) slugs, sometimes in the right barrel, sometimes in the left with the thought doubtless being that the slug could be fired in succession to the rifle barrel without recocking. I had an older Sauer side lock drilling which I believe would hit a thumbtack at 50 yds with a slug if you gave me 3 tries...alas I sold it off to help finance my first Cape buffalo hunt. Also keep in mind that SXS patterns have to cross at some predetermined distance.
The best drilling to my mind would be a double rifle drilling, like the one Red Leg owns. Now THAT would be some potent wounded leopard medicine!
Off topic a hair: I wonder why no one loads flechettes instead of buckshot for leopard follow up? They are wicked things with very low pattern dispersion due to the teardrop shape. They would be worth reloading if you could locate just the projectiles.
Back to slugs--I am largely an original Breneke kind of guy since they are designed to be shot out of ANY fixed choke without danger. (the only bulged barrels I have seen were guns where the metal was old, soft and where even a plastic wad would cause the slight bulge behind the choke--tho it would then never get any worse. YMMV) HOWEVER, THE BRENEKE "magic" series are high speed, bad mamma-jammahs and accurate to boot. Will also soon be experimenting with heavy for gauge slugs from BPI, which show promise for extra penetration.
THE most accurate slugs I ever encountered were the now discontinued Activ which group at 100 yards out of my Novotny BBF. If anyone has any of those in 16 ga. I will beg you on my knees to let me buy them...

 

[WebleyGreene455]

Glad you didn't try to rechamber to the 9.3x74--there is usually JUST enough meat in the chamber of any drilling with none to spare to be safe. They always save all the weight they can. But I hear you brother since I myself once asked a gunsmith about it--he was a curmudgeon anyway, but that question really set him on a rant against the idea.

Well I'd have had to buy it first anyway and I think I would've been hesitant to rechamber it if I had bought it. So ultimately no worries!

 

[steve white]

Strictly SXS shotguns for slugs should be heavier than light bird guns with thinly struck barrels. The other question, which can only be ascertained by testing is--will the regulation for shot carry over to the regulation required for slugs. That can be altered by anything which affects barrel time of the shotload--even your weight, the guns weight, your resistance to recoil, the time of the slug IN THE BARREL due to velocity etc., and maybe even the tilt of the planet seasonally! In other words at what yardage will the barrel shot converge--the longer the better within reason. And all this without talking about elevation changes of the group according to the sights. You pay your money, you take your chances. Barring re-regulation, it will be what it will be...tho slug pattern will often be lowered about 6" by going to long forcing cones.

BTW, not all shotguns are regulated well in the first place!

 

[F. Vaccaro]

Thank you everyone, I wondered if slugs would eventually damage a side by side.
Bob, thanks for first hand experience & observation.

 

[270Guy]

270Guy, I think you made an innocent mistake somewhere. Lyon & Lyon closed down in 1929. And they never made any firearms (and certainly not for Army & Navy). Rather Westley Richards and Midland Gun Co. made firearms FOR THEM

It was purchased by my family in 1950,Lyon,Army Navy {was a Co-op} , Rodda, Manton were just gun Traders,most of them took run of the mill trade guns and stamped them, Daw and another Gun Dealer of Calcutta & Rangoon had Lyon in stock till much after that,think the left over inventory after they stopped Stamping them.Army Navy had an Invisible Paradox,it had the marking "JUNGLE GUN" on the Rib.The one i had also had the same Marking.It was made for the Indian Jungle. from Snipe to Tiger.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

It was purchased by my family in 1950,Lyon,Army Navy {was a Co-op} , Rodda, Manton were just gun Traders,most of them took run of the mill trade guns and stamped them, Daw and another Gun Dealer of Calcutta & Rangoon had Lyon in stock till much after that,think the left over inventory after they stopped Stamping them.Army Navy had an Invisible Paradox,it had the marking "JUNGLE GUN" on the Rib.The one i had also had the same Marking.It was made for the Indian Jungle. from Snipe to Tiger.

Like this one, 270Guy ?