7mm rifles, whats your thoughts, favourites

[Standard Velocity]

There is an often overlooked consideration in 7mms: throat length, twist rate, available ammunition.

I've found that the "European" and "Metric" 7mm cartridges have the heavy-for-caliber offerings, thick jacketed bullets, and have loaded ammunition suitable for elk, moose, bear, African game, etc. Not so with many of the "American" 7mm offerings.

For examples: 7x57 aka 7mm Mauser aka 275 Rigby has a "default" bullet size of 156gr to 175gr. Compare to the 7mm-08 that should be identical, but most of the ammo is in the 120gr and 140gr loadings. The throats in the 7-08 were not designed for the 175gr-180gr bullets (and by extension, the 140gr-150gr copper bullet that has the same volume as the lead 180gr). They shoot smaller bullets better. Thus, I avoid 7-08s.

Same for 7x57r, 7x64 Brennecke, 7x65r.

If you want to go the "American" route, a .280 Remington Ackley Improved is a solid choice. You can get factory loads. You can get heavy for caliber factory loads. You can shoot .280 rem ammo as well. It has the ability to take formidable game.

Exactly this ^^^

The 7mm-08 is an excellent cartridge that was hamstrung from using heavy for caliber bullets by twist rate. The 7mm Mauser is superior for versatility.

The 7mm-08 is pretty ideal for whitetail deer at typical ranges.

 

[rookhawk]

Exactly this ^^^

The 7mm-08 is an excellent cartridge that was hamstrung from using heavy for caliber bullets by twist rate. The 7mm Mauser is superior for versatility.

The 7mm-08 is pretty ideal for whitetail deer at typical ranges.

Forgive me for saying this, because I'm no Jack O'Connor fanboy, but... once you've neutered a 7mm Mauser or 7x64 by making a 7-08 and throttling down to 140gr bullets or less, might as well just go get a .270 winchester, shoot a .277" bullet, and call it a day.

Americanization of metric calibers has always trended towards the lackluster. A beautiful 6.5x55 becomes a lame .260. A great 7x57 becomes a lethargic 7-08. A 9.3x62 becomes a 358 winchester.

EVEN if the metric-euro calibers were worse (they're not) than the American knock-offs, one problem still remains. 99.99% of American caliber 7mm guns are ugly as sin, whereas many of the european metric guns are exhibition quality. Ironically, sometimes for the same exact price as the american model too!

 

[HWL]

99.99% of American caliber 7mm guns are ugly as sin, whereas many of the european metric guns are exhibition quality. Ironically, sometimes for the same exact price as the american model too!

Here comes the 0,01% beautyfull american 7mm gun.....

Ruger No 1 RSI in 7x57!


HWL

 

[rookhawk]

Here comes the 0,01% beautyfull american 7mm gun.....

Ruger No 1 RSI in 7x57!


HWL

Yep!

 

[Rust Merchant]

I've shot a fair amount of stuff with a 7mm Rem Mag, and when I've done my part, it has always done its part well.. (Winchester 70A, and I found
that Remington bullets didn't break up like the Winchester rounds did.)
Longest shot was around 330 yards; biggest thing I shot was a kudu.

Never used it for dangerous game (a Rhodesian friend tried to get me
to shoot a buff bull with it--the bigger gun was back in the land rover),
but I resisted that excitement potential....

I always want something I can buy cartridges for at any old gun and tackle shop, and Mr. Remington makes good ones.

Rust Merchant

 

[Luederitz]

Attached my favorite 7mm calibers (left to right):

7x66SE vH - 9,5x66SE vH - 9,3x64 Brenneke

 

[Luederitz]

And rimmed I like the 7x65R and the 7x75R SE vH (on the left the 5,6x57R):

 

[rookhawk]

A bit of 7mm trivia for the crowd that is trying to find a do-all rifle suitable for all people, including women and children.

The 7x64 Brenneke is nearly as powerful as the 280 Rem AI and the 7mm Mag, but just a bit shy. As you know, tiny reductions in oomph can make major reductions in recoil.

The 7x64 in a roughly 8.5lb gun produces 17lbs of felt recoil. That was the mildest recoililng, flattest shooting gun I could find that was suitable for everything in the lower 48 states including elk, moose, huge black bear, etc, etc. My son (age 8) has been shooting his for nearly two years now and has had great results. He used it at 244 yards to kill his New Mexico Oryx this past July and has used it for white tail deer as well. It works very well with the 140gr Barnes factory loads. (volume of a 175gr classic lead 7mm load)

If you're looking for the mildest recoiling do-all rifle, the 7x64 brenneke is probably it.

 

[bruce moulds]

and the 280 rem likewise.
shooting nearly as flat as a 7mag (closer than some think), you can have a lighter rifle for the same recoil, handy in the hills.
bruce.

 

[Mr. Zorg]

Forgive me for saying this, because I'm no Jack O'Connor fanboy, but... once you've neutered a 7mm Mauser or 7x64 by making a 7-08 and throttling down to 140gr bullets or less, might as well just go get a .270 winchester, shoot a .277" bullet, and call it a day.

Americanization of metric calibers has always trended towards the lackluster. A beautiful 6.5x55 becomes a lame .260. A great 7x57 becomes a lethargic 7-08. A 9.3x62 becomes a 358 winchester.

EVEN if the metric-euro calibers were worse (they're not) than the American knock-offs, one problem still remains. 99.99% of American caliber 7mm guns are ugly as sin, whereas many of the european metric guns are exhibition quality. Ironically, sometimes for the same exact price as the american model too!

There's no forgiving close-mindedness restricting the 7mm-08 caliber in a rifle with 1:10 inches twist rate barrel to projectiles of 140 grains or less.

Consider the simple Norma 7mm-08 factory smmo loaded with 156 grain Oryx (BC 0.330) at published muzzle velocity of 2725 feet per second, exceeding the same projectile in Norma 7X57mm factory ammo published muzzle velocity of 2660 feet per second, and 160 grain Tipstrike (BC 0.51) projectiles at a published muzzle velocity of 2690 feet per second, if nothing in my prior posts on stability calculations showing the 160 grain Accubond (BC 0.531) at published muzzle velocity of 2690 feet per second loaded by Reed's Ammunition and Tesearc, being about the upper limit of the 7mm-08 cartridge and 1:10 inch barrel twist has no validity from your perspective.

Norma clearly doesn't fit within your narrow worldview of Americanization of European metric calibers any more than I, an American, do.

As I posted earlier I'll test some custom loaded 7mm-08 catridges in 140 grain Speer Trophy Bonded Bear Claw as well, to compare with Federal factory 7mm-08 ammo loaded with the 140 grain Trophy Bonded Tip projectiles that have favorable reports regarding effectiveness on North American elk posted on the internet, for whatever that might be worth. I think the 160 grain Acvubond load will work fine, but if not, I'll try some 160 grain Speer Grand Slam (Mark 2) and 160 grain Speer Trophy Bonded Bear Claw projectiles in custom 7mm-08 loads.

Norma 170 grain Oryx and Speer 170 grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claw projectiles may intrude too much in 7mm-08 case capacity for me, or may not, since my 7mm-08 rifle has a Zastava action. It might accomodate some 7mm-08 cartridge OAL loadings with those projectiles a true "short action" receiver and magazine would not. But I'll probably never find out.

Because 7mm cartridges loaded with 7mm projectiles both loaded with 160 grain and up projectiles, as well as the Federal 7mm 155 grain TLR Edge projectile (BC 0.61) are intended for my 7X64mm rifles with 1:8.7 inches rifling twist.

I'm seriously considering selling my 7X57mm rifles at this point. Not any rational cause for haste without seeing what my other efforts' results will be, and not a make-or-break thing for this open minded American in any event.

I'm nobody's fanboy, I'm just not a dramatic individual. I have a great dispassionate respect for both empirical results and mathematical models within their envelope of validity, and I have a long history of performance reviews ranking me at the top in the dimension (skill, talent, whatever) labeled Critical Thinking.

 

[Mr. Zorg]

Typo correction: Norma's published velocity for their 7X57mm ammo loaded with their 156 grain Oryx projectile is 2640 feet per second (805 meters per second) - 85 feet per second (26 meters per second) less than Norma's 7mm-08 ammo loaded with their 156 grain Oryx projectile.

 

[Mr. Zorg]

Looky what else I found - American factory loaded 7mm-08 ammunition with the 165 grain Sierra Gamechanger projectile (BC 0.51) at 2560 feet per second. The muzzle energy is clearly a typo though - looks like joules instead of ft-lbs to my discerning eyes.

http://www.selwayarmory.com/hsm-tip...gton-165-gr-sierra-gamechanger-box-of-20.html

Guess the Geco 7X57mm ammo with 165 grain soft point (BC 0.36) with published muzzle velocity of 2625 feet per second (800 meters per second) is the neutered version - again?

https://geco-munition.de/en/ammunition/geco-centrefire-rifle-cartridges.html#!0/5/8

 

[bruce moulds]

zorg,
don't underestimate 1:10" twist capability.
it will work with bullets heavier than 140 gns, but not long bullets like the 180 gn berger vld.
with regards the 7/08, the big problem with heavier bullets is that their length encroaches into the powder space, reducing potential when loaded to 308 win mag length.
the 284 win has the same problem.
used in fclass rifles with longer freebore and a 1:9" twist, both cartridges work well out to 1200 yds with 180 gn bergers.
bruce.

 

[Mr. Zorg]

I am most definitely not doing any such underestimating, not sure how that message csme out of my posts in this thread. I'm rebutting the "neutered" by Americans claims for the 7mm-08 especially with tegard to the 1:10 inches twist rate limiting the cartridge to projectiles weighing 140 grains or less - "quoted" in my first post this page I'd hoped for clarity of my data & discussion direction - thus demonstrating a great gap in versatility of the 7mm-08 vs the 7X57mm. Utterly factless as I demonstrated.

Previously I posted the 1:10 twist tate is insufficirnt for the 7mm 155 grain Federal Edge TLR, which is why I planned to test that projectile in my 7X64mm rifles, in addition to my focus on 160+ grain projectiles for my 7X64mm rifles.

I picked up 2 boxes of this 7mm-08 load via delivery to my doorstep: I have not seen any 7X57mm factory ammo yet with a published muzzle velocity of 2950 feet per second, but I'm open to seeing such via a web link if such exists.

https://www.underwoodammo.com/colle...osler-accubond-spitzer?variant=18806601089081

 

[Mr. Zorg]

With 140 grain projectile, if that isn't clear from the link to Underwood 7mm-08 factory ammunition.

 

[Ray B]

Seems to me that most of the recent changes/introductions of cartridges have been involving rifles that had tighter barrel twists and cartridges that had "modern" styling. Most noteworthy of the trend is the 6.5 creedmoor. It is only slightly different from the 260 Rem but rifles have a tighter twist. the result is a rifle that will shoot bullets having a greater BC and so will enable shots at longer ranges. Since powder burns progressively, case capacity is more relevant than case shape, so comparing one cartridge to another means comparing the case capacity and bore diameter. the remaining aspects involve the rifle.

 

[rookhawk]

Seems to me that most of the recent changes/introductions of cartridges have been involving rifles that had tighter barrel twists and cartridges that had "modern" styling. Most noteworthy of the trend is the 6.5 creedmoor. It is only slightly different from the 260 Rem but rifles have a tighter twist. the result is a rifle that will shoot bullets having a greater BC and so will enable shots at longer ranges. Since powder burns progressively, case capacity is more relevant than case shape, so comparing one cartridge to another means comparing the case capacity and bore diameter. the remaining aspects involve the rifle.

Don't forget long action versus short action as another factor. A lot of these cartridges were "small" but when thrown into their default "long action" they had so much room for proper feed that really long, heavy bullets were just fine and no case capacity was consumed. 7x57 is a great example of this with its "default" 180gr FMJ bullet that was used by the commercial ivory hunters for brain shots.

 

[fourfive8]

Don't forget long action versus short action as another factor. A lot of these cartridges were "small" but when thrown into their default "long action" they had so much room for proper feed that really long, heavy bullets were just fine and no case capacity was consumed. 7x57 is a great example of this with its "default" 180gr FMJ bullet that was used by the commercial ivory hunters for brain shots.

Yes, that is absolutely correct about most 7 x 57 rifles- a medium length cartridge in standard length action really minimizes problems! Also, most have long throats to handle the longer, heavier round nose bullets. Those are two very nice and practical attributes for a hunting rifle! With the right bullet loaded in reliable ammo, Bell certainly took advantage of the full potential of the 7 x 57

Those attributes plus the almost universal availability of ammo and components, make the 7 x 57 a great choice for medium-sized game around the world.

 

[Mr. Zorg]

Don't forget long action versus short action as another factor. A lot of these cartridges were "small" but when thrown into their default "long action" they had so much room for proper feed that really long, heavy bullets were just fine and no case capacity was consumed. 7x57 is a great example of this with its "default" 180gr FMJ bullet that was used by the commercial ivory hunters for brain shots.

rookhawk,

The same as my Zastava M70 7mm-08 rifle as I posted above. The only less-than-.30-06-length bolt action manufactured by Zastava was for the 8X57mm M48 rifles.

Nothing forgotten by me. Did you look at any single data link in any of my posts?

 

[Standard Velocity]

Sure you can squeeze out a bit more velocity from a 7mm-08 by using a long action receiver, handloading longer than recommended to save powder space and using a custom barrel with longer throat and faster twist for heavy bullets.

You can also add nitrous, a new chip set, bore out the engine and add a spoiler to a Honda to get similar performance to an Audi. This does not an Audi make though.

It’s great to have a versatile chambering you believe in and have taken time to tweak to its greatest potential. Let’s not kid ourselves into thinking it is something it is not though.

That’s the cool thing about having so darn many chamberings; there is likely an existing cartridge designed specifically for the performance envelope you desire.