7mm rifles, whats your thoughts, favourites

I'll CAPO
I hunted the Kalahari region and we were able to stalk within 200 yards max of all game including black wildebeest at 180yards.
The Whelen loaded with 225grain accubonds @ 2,850 fps are flat shooting enough for 400 yards. It has the same drop as the 308 with 155gn Says that is around 23-24 inches so very do able.
Cheers mate Bob

Wonderful. Never heard of the Whelen being used that far out. All this said, I think for plains game anything from the 7 x 57mm Mauser through .35 Whelen would be fine.

I got my 7mm Rem Mag when I was stationed in Colorado way back in 1986. Loaned it to a buddy when he spotted a deer I didn't on our first trip and he took it off the mountain top across from us. I was stunned at the range. He was a very good shot. The next year I took a prong horn with it on the plains at 300 yards. Technically speaking, I really don't need the 280 AI, but have wanted one for a while and have an action just waiting for the project. Also, this week I decided to drop a few dollars on a rifle a local shop has on consignment. Lovely piece which tops off my .25 caliber battery. It's a 1917 Remington sporterized into a hunting gun -- chambered for .25-06.
 
Wonderful. Never heard of the Whelen being used that far out. All this said, I think for plains game anything from the 7 x 57mm Mauser through .35 Whelen would be fine.

I got my 7mm Rem Mag when I was stationed in Colorado way back in 1986. Loaned it to a buddy when he spotted a deer I didn't on our first trip and he took it off the mountain top across from us. I was stunned at the range. He was a very good shot. The next year I took a prong horn with it on the plains at 300 yards. Technically speaking, I really don't need the 280 AI, but have wanted one for a while and have an action just waiting for the project. Also, this week I decided to drop a few dollars on a rifle a local shop has on consignment. Lovely piece which tops off my .25 caliber battery. It's a 1917 Remington sporterized into a hunting gun -- chambered for .25-06.
ILCAPO
I don't usually shoot 400 yards but I was teaching my son how to us the mil rad marks on this scope. He was shooting 600ml water bottles at that range. When he got the hang of it he regularly popped those little bottles. Being the typical 15 year old smart A## he said you can't do that dad.
I had worked out the drop of the 08 and Whelen at that range to be similar.
Assume position on the bench, sight, hit launch control mechanism ( trigger) = big cloud of mist and no more bottle.
Neither my son or myself shoot game over 300 yards unless there's no option then we call our absolute max 400. We prefer to stalk closer and shoot straighter and try to limit our shots to 200 yards at game. The reason for the self imposed limits is there are a lot of long range field rifles but not many long range field shooters.
I prefer killing not wounding. I don't like to see anything suffer hence the self imposed limits.
Cheers ILCAPO
Bob Nelson
 
Wonderful. Never heard of the Whelen being used that far out. All this said, I think for plains game anything from the 7 x 57mm Mauser through .35 Whelen would be fine.

I got my 7mm Rem Mag when I was stationed in Colorado way back in 1986. Loaned it to a buddy when he spotted a deer I didn't on our first trip and he took it off the mountain top across from us. I was stunned at the range. He was a very good shot. The next year I took a prong horn with it on the plains at 300 yards. Technically speaking, I really don't need the 280 AI, but have wanted one for a while and have an action just waiting for the project. Also, this week I decided to drop a few dollars on a rifle a local shop has on consignment. Lovely piece which tops off my .25 caliber battery. It's a 1917 Remington sporterized into a hunting gun -- chambered for .25-06.
ILCAPO
Please post a photo of the 25 ought 6.
 
I have a 7mm Rem Mag and a 7 X 57 Model 70. Both fine cartridges.
I had a 7x61 S&H for about 25 years (over 900 rounds down the tube) and liked it but more than was necessary for the deer so returned to my first love in 7mm and built a 7x57's.
 
@Bob Nelson 35 Whelan,

I find it notable that nowhere did I post anything about same case size + more powder = anything FWIW. One part of that you left out IMO is the same powder.

A different powder (and not one yet available at the retail level) is what I've speculated as the difference between the Norma 7X64mm Brenneke factory ammo loaded with the 160 grain Tipstrike projectile with a published muzzle velocity of 2920 fps vs their .280 Remington factory ammo also loaded with the 160 grain Tipstrike projectile with a published muzzle velocity of 2789 fps, elsewhere on this board. And the Geco 7X64mm factory ammunition loaded with the 155 grain Express projectile with a published muzzle velocity of 2904 fps as a cross check, noting that both companies fall under the RUAG corporate umbrella elsewhere on this board.

Can you explain the CIP rationale for a different upper pressure limit for 7X57mm Mauser vs 7mm-08 Remington? We, including me, are all aware of the rationale behind the SAAMI difference. I have not seen any posts explaining the rationale behing the CIP reasoning for the lesser but still different, upper pressure limit figures. I assume the CIP figure has a rationale, and a different rationale than SAAMI.
Mr Zorg
You want to be quoted well you use references to published velocities for your examples and calculations. Just curious are all these calculations based on barrels of the same manufacturer,same length, same type of powder fired from the same action.
I think not making you carefully calculated results null and void.
When you do the calculations in a controlled environment with known variables you will get a different set of results. It is unusal in the real world to find published velocity to be accurate even when using real world results and averages the published and real very rarely corospond.
It is my humble opinion that results based on your own actual fied experience are the ones that matter. Yes use theory as a guideline to assist in making a decision but in real life and under real shooting conditions where the average person shoots at 200 yards or less any of the 7mm's will do the job and I doubt any animal hit properly with in that distance will tell the difference between a 7x57 or a 7mm Remington mag.
Theory and calculations are all good but it's the real word that counts. Anything can be made to look either good or bad on paper.
Just shoot have fun and learn from other what you don't know. They may have more real life experience.
Cheers Mr Zorg
Bob Nelson
 
Well I certainly provided, and continue to provide, links to substantiate my positions. And in the case of calculations in this thread, I believe anyone can see me putting YMMV. It honestly doesn't concern me if someone who doesn't agree doesn't take my posts seriously, especially if they've formed positions they don't choose to provide direct examples in my posts where they choose to form such positions. All I know of any forum member is through posts and information here, and vice-versa.

I chhose to use such mdeling with respect to what loads I would try in my rifles. I don't see anywhere that I posted individual rifles have variances, nor do I believe that makes all such calculations null and void. I doubt if the folks that built these models ignored individual rifles having variances either, and I doubt those model builders would say those variances make all such calculations null and void. You do, your choice. In my experience such models are built using empirical data, and produce reasonable generalized predictions, but never absolute.

I have learned quite abit from other forum members and I have what I believe a reasonable probability to continue to learn from other forum members, some more than others.

However none of this discussion provides any insight based on my posts that I have no experience using rifles successfully to hunt game, and to make good decisions when I have hunted game animals in the past, much less in the future. I still welcome specific examples that support someone who has taken such a such a position. Using hyperlinks and the forum "quote" function. In the concept of a forum (vs a blog- monologue) I expect to be able to use those same tools.
 
Well I certainly provided, and continue to provide, links to substantiate my positions. And in the case of calculations in this thread, I believe anyone can see me putting YMMV. It honestly doesn't concern me if someone who doesn't agree doesn't take my posts seriously, especially if they've formed positions they don't choose to provide direct examples in my posts where they choose to form such positions. All I know of any forum member is through posts and information here, and vice-versa.

I chhose to use such mdeling with respect to what loads I would try in my rifles. I don't see anywhere that I posted individual rifles have variances, nor do I believe that makes all such calculations null and void. I doubt if the folks that built these models ignored individual rifles having variances either, and I doubt those model builders would say those variances make all such calculations null and void. You do, your choice. In my experience such models are built using empirical data, and produce reasonable generalized predictions, but never absolute.

I have learned quite abit from other forum members and I have what I believe a reasonable probability to continue to learn from other forum members, some more than others.

However none of this discussion provides any insight based on my posts that I have no experience using rifles successfully to hunt game, and to make good decisions when I have hunted game animals in the past, much less in the future. I still welcome specific examples that support someone who has taken such a such a position. Using hyperlinks and the forum "quote" function. In the concept of a forum (vs a blog- monologue) I expect to be able to use those same tools.
Mr Zorg
No one is saying or has implied that you have a lack of shooting ability or that your choices are made on your calculations and data are incorrect.
What I am saying and I'm sure others feel the same is that we all have cartridges we like, some we dislike. These choices were made by us by listening to others as well as our own experience.
Long winded explanations on why or what you chose is not necessarily informative but tends to make one appear to be a pompous mathematical geek. Those sort of explanation are best left for a lecture theatre where people are actually interested.
It is truly good you enjoy weapons and hunting just try and be more interesting and less analytical, life would be so much enjoyable for all.
Lighten up mate and enjoy life.
Cheers
Bob Nelson
 
"Interesting" is certainly a subjective perspective, and I would find critiques if my hunting decision making abilities that don't include posts of what I have accomplished in the real world as valid as judging my abilities based on my eye color, or shoe size, or sequence of digits in my phone number - and absolutely pompous considering such posts exist here, and without choosing bigoted labels on my part, but everyone owns their own choices for pejorative terms such as "geek". Men I hunt with in the real world in Texas have provided completely different input than some outside Texas, and completely outside the USA, have diagnosed from completely different hemispheres both in latitude and longitude. The SA outfitters I've contacted that have experience hunting in Texas have informed me their properties' topography have quite a lot of similarities to hunting in Texas scrub land thus well applicable to hunting plains game in their areas of SA.

As far as cartridge favorites go, I addressed that earlier in this thread but that post is similarly being pompously ignored. As that post still shows, I used my .25-06 Remington Interarms Mark X rifle to bag the game animals I shot in 2019 - but that doesn't mean. 25-06 is my "favorite" cartridge any more than 7mm-08 Remington.

And using perjoative terms to describe anyone does not change the real world facts in any way, shape, or form. History shows it never has. But it certainly has always carried its own statement about the individuals who choose to do so. Fortunately for me the odds of me ever hunting on a particular piece of land at the same time with someone who has chosen to throw such terms at me on this forum are astronomically low, especially someone who believes pejorative terms are actually congruent with "lighten up" in the real world. And that mathematical reality pleases me no end.
 
"Interesting" is certainly a subjective perspective, and I would find critiques if my hunting decision making abilities that don't include posts of what I have accomplished in the real world as valid as judging my abilities based on my eye color, or shoe size, or sequence of digits in my phone number - and absolutely pompous considering such posts exist here, and without choosing bigoted labels on my part, but everyone owns their own choices for pejorative terms such as "geek". Men I hunt with in the real world in Texas have provided completely different input than some outside Texas, and completely outside the USA, have diagnosed from completely different hemispheres both in latitude and longitude. The SA outfitters I've contacted that have experience hunting in Texas have informed me their properties' topography have quite a lot of similarities to hunting in Texas scrub land thus well applicable to hunting plains game in their areas of SA.

As far as cartridge favorites go, I addressed that earlier in this thread but that post is similarly being pompously ignored. As that post still shows, I used my .25-06 Remington Interarms Mark X rifle to bag the game animals I shot in 2019 - but that doesn't mean. 25-06 is my "favorite" cartridge any more than 7mm-08 Remington.

And using perjoative terms to describe anyone does not change the real world facts in any way, shape, or form. History shows it never has. But it certainly has always carried its own statement about the individuals who choose to do so. Fortunately for me the odds of me ever hunting on a particular piece of land at the same time with someone who has chosen to throw such terms at me on this forum are astronomically low, especially someone who believes pejorative terms are actually congruent with "lighten up" in the real world. And that mathematical reality pleases me no end.
Mr Zorg
It takes you a long time to say what the average person can say in a few sentences.
E.g.
I have learnt what I know from hunting in Texas and speaking to people worldwide.
It's good to know SA has a similar topography to Texas so do a shit load of other places.
I concur there is no chance of hunting with or any where near you and for that I give thanks to God and am truly greatfull such a thing has a miniscule to no chance ( stuff all chance) of happening. Just the thought of having to listen to your lectures aroud a campfire almost make me want to find where you hunt so i know not to be there at the same time.
Bob
 
my favorite 7mm deer rifle is a Remington model 700 left hand in 7mm08 with a 20" barrel, I push a 120 nosler BT at 2900 fps with varget. its a light,handy rifle that's very accurett too. a coyote kill and whats left over.

DSCN1258 (2).JPG
DSCN1256 (2).JPG
 
Last edited by a moderator:
my favorite 7mm deer rifle is a Remington model 700 left hand in 7mm08 with a 20" barrel, I push a 120 nosler BT at 2900 fps with varget. its a light,handy rifle that's very accurett too. a coyote kill and whats left over.

View attachment 330938 View attachment 330939
Leslie hetrick
Very nice mate l hope the bottom photo is not what the bullet did to the deer. Ha ha ha
Seriously you've got a lot of prime venison there taken with the right cal in a nicer rifle.
Cheers mate Bob
 
my favorite 7mm deer rifle is a Remington model 700 left hand in 7mm08 with a 20" barrel, I push a 120 nosler BT at 2900 fps with varget. its a light,handy rifle that's very accurett too. a coyote kill and whats left over.

View attachment 330938 View attachment 330939
Bob, Nicer rifle? that rifle would be useless to me. It’s a Lefty.
Leslie, I’m glad you can shoot with that thing but honestly I have not tried. At least it would spit shells back in the car.
Actually my comment is more about the load. I use Nosler BT with great success in my .223 and have the 120s for my 7mm-08, I read a lot on using Varget which is AR2208 in Australia on sold to Hodgdon by ADI.
I don’t chronograph or find enough time to get too technical.
Can I ask what your load is? Reasonable groups is what I aim for in load testing. I’ve jumped around a bit with different projectiles but hope to have a 7mm-08 hunting rifle someday. Likely a Tikka with a 20” barrel in a lightweight stock.
I have Winchester cases and a Tikka CTR in 20” that I use from the car for foxes pigs and any pest that qualifies as a target.
Hoping to pursue some Dingo soon.
 
start at 40 grs of varget and workup slowly, you will find a good load. 45 grs is max for the 120,s. a prong horn and a few whitetails taken with the 7mm08

DSCN0334 (2).JPG
DSCN9601 (2).JPG
DSCN9632 (2).JPG
 
Last edited by a moderator:
It was a rough-and-ready assumption that spin rate of decay was almost negligible thus a a muzzle velocity.

Using 10% rotational velocity decay (at what distance or at what linear velocity as a % of muzzle velocity would be good to know), a 1:10 inches ratio would then be a 1:11 inches twist rate, correct?

Using 1:11 inches ratio and 1800 fps (muzzle but not really) velocity yields the following result using a model with the Miller twist rule, no polymer tip, 175 grain Nosler Partition, 1 atmosphere, 59°F, 50% humidity (reasonable representative South Texas Whitetail season conditions for my use), the progam spits out the following results.

"While theoretically stable, you're on the edge. A faster twist is suggested to ensure a suitable margin of safety."

If we use Wikipedia's value of 2595 fps for a 7mm-08 cartridge, 1800 fps is 69% of muzzle velocity, and using same atmospheric conditions and without introducing variable wind conditions, Fereral's ballistics app shows 1805 fps occurs at 380 yards from the muzzle. Of course, lower muzzle velocities will decay to 1800 fps at a shorter distance from the muzzle and simultaneously a higher % of muzzle velocity. This would bring into play the importance of the basis of 10% rotational velocity decay with respect to distance traveled from the muzzle and / or % of muzzle velocity where the 10% rotational velocity occurs, as well as the + or - bracketing of where the 10% rotational velocity decay occurs.

Of course all sorts of additional modeling requirements and refinements can be put into such models and cranked through, but again, what is the expected influence of such refinements on the actual rsults, and also within the precision of the model itself? Thee is a concept of Significant Figures that should be applied whenever building and using such models, plus the ability to actually repeatedly measure and validate the precision of such refinements.

My model framing is hunting use within "reasonable" - typical? - hunting target rnge applications with the 7mm 175 grain Nosler Partition projectile which has a published G1 BC = 0.387. If the discussion was framed around long range metal silhouette shooting with custom 7mm-08 rifles with barrel twist rates of say 1:8 inches or faster with projectiles such as the Federal 7mm 155 grain Edge TLR projectile the model precision and levels of appropriate refinement would be completely different.

So within the bound of what would be professionally described as my engineering judgement, the rough-and-ready modeling I performed for this example within the framework of use of the model and its results, my approach & results rmainvalid after adding a 10% generalized rotational velocity decay at an undefined distance from muzzle or % of muzzle velocity envelope of applicability of validity a generalized 10% is applicable at. Note the projectile minimum impact expansion velocity is a fixed value independent of muzzle velocity (and therefore distance from muzzle and % muzzle velocity) as well as atmospheric conditions.

If there is additional definition of the envelope where a rotational velocity decay of 10% is applicable, my engineering judgement is this is unlikely to significantly affect modeling predictions within the confines of the model and circumstances used to define the use of the model and its results unless a high sensitivity between rate of rotational velocity decay vs % of muzzle velocity (and by extension distance traveled from muzzle) is shown to radically change the generalized additional refinement basis of 10% rotational velocity decay introduced. (This is what is called a sensitivity analysis in my profession.)

I hope that's helpful not only from a perspective of adding a generalized refinement with undefined sensitivity, as well as directional effects of other refinements in general with respect to model use and framework of any model (as well as the concept of significant figures and by extension significnce of effects). But all of this is absoutely useless if pedantic adherance to the definitin of the trm "muzzle velocity" is insistently slavishly adhered to rather than conceptual use of extrapolating use of the model at any condition other than specifically what the assignned model terms are.

Take it for what itis, or reject it absolutely in the absence of a model based on an empirical data set with many many measurements taken mid-flight at 1800 fps for this specific projectile.

I never said my model extrapolations and results were in any way absolutely accurate to a defined number of significant figures. Instead what I alluded to erroneously thinking it went without explicit statement and demonstration, was my use of such model provides reasonable results in my engineering judgement within the context and framework of use of that model in the absence of me finding a model explicitly based on an empirical data set measured directly at the defined point of 1800 fps mid-flight.

I find the approach and results reasonable for my purposes and applicability of the general regime indicated by the rsultswithn two digits whch is the regime where changes to the regimes occur within the model, as well as a rational basis of how I extended the defined terms of the model I used by not being constrained by pedantic definition of one model input term. YMMV.

Edit: I guess I should add: is there is an element of risk this post will cause you to define yourself as my enemy? I honestly don't know of a better response and demonstration of the rationale of this response, plus rationale of any prior post I've made.

One central concept: if the model result indicates an unstable projectile, or stable projectile, does that mean that at any and every point in time (and distance) after thhe instant that projectile leaves the muzzle, does that really mean the projectile will be unstable, or stable, until forces of resistance of the fluid media the projectile is traveling through bring the projectile velocity to zero in all directions?

I posit if the model result says unstable, the answr is yes. If the model result says stable, the answer is no. Within the framework the model is used. Agree, or disagree?
Mr Zorg
All this is rather enlightening but for some reason even a 160gn 6.5 cal bullet at trans sonic Speed remains stable in flight out to 1,000yards plus despite the velocity being well below your 1,800 fps. The same applies to the old bog standard 303 military round. I was under the impression that rotational velocity drops very little over all ranges and that the majority of projectiles will hit the ground before rotational stability is affected..
Just my unmathematical ideas. Probably not worth much as the longest range I will attempt to shoot game is 400 yards and that is under absolute ideal conditions.
Cheers
Bob Nelson
 
My observations of the Sheldon character is he fails to think of the context for use of any model almost every time he tries to apply one, much less assign any value to thinkng about the context.

That's part of what separates Scientists from Engineers philosophically IMO. Real world rsults, YMMV of course . . .

Here's the hyperlink to the model site I used.

https://bisonballistics.com/calculators/stability
Mr Zorg
Just looked at that sight, couldn't make hide no hair of it. All I know is twist rates are designed for a max weight any thing over that weight won't stabilized regardless of velocity.
Bob
 
Typo. Make that a .35 Whelen. And yes, the Savage is one of my favorites. It's a perfect deer gun for around here (Virginia). I took a doe a few years back at about 70 yards. She dropped where she stood with a shot to the chest. Got up on her front legs, staggered, and fell. Then got up on her hind legs, staggered a moment and fell. The tail flickered a few times and that was it. When I opened her up I found the chest cavity full of blood. She's bled out quickly. The 100 grain .25 cal bullet (I think this was Remington Core-lok) hit exactly where I pointed it, just behind the left shoulder, broke three ribs, turned to the right and drove through both lungs, smashed through three of the lower ribs on the right side and stopped. It apparently rebounded on the hide on the far side. So, all the energy was dumped in the animal.

I read the .250 Savage (.250-3000) is a great round for medium sized deer out to 175 yards. From my experience, it appears to be so. I love the light weight and easy handlong of this gun. That said, it's for here. I understand pumps, levers and autoloaders are not authorized in Africa. Same with most other countries outside North America.

Ireland restricts (or at least used to) rifles to no more than .270 caliber (maybe 7mm). So, .30-06s are too big.
ILCAPO
Give me a good 25 over that useless 243 any day.
Bob
 
That calculator seems to work pretty well. It's fun to play with because you can use your cursor to adjust the velocity as it relates to Sg (stability factor) for any one bullet in a particular twist. Good visualization tool, much like the old Norma ballistics calculator. Actually it's length not weight of a bullet that most directly affects gyroscopic stability in flight.

Just a secondary observation about spin stability and bullets... it took me years to figure out and realize that while inter-related, there is a difference between spin stability and accuracy. I can have a rifle/ammo combination with a nice, perfect twist-rate-for-caliber and velocity range but it may or may not shoot accurately. Many other factors involved. And conversely, if the twist rate (spin) is inadequate or not optimal for a particular bullet it will not be stable in flight and will not be accurate on target.
 
Last edited:
ILCAPO
Give me a good 25 over that useless 243 any day.
Bob

I get it. I haven't hunted with my 6mm Remington. Not yet. Lovely range gun, but I'd only use this is certain circumstances, like large varmint, javelina, small deer depending on the terrain. I prefer the .257 Roberts for that business, or better yet, the 7 x 57 Mauser. Both work.
 
don,t sell the .244-6mm,s short, my .244 gets 3100 fps with a 100 gr flat base bullet, not for cape buffalo. but the right bullet would take light plains animals. lower rifle is a Remington 722 in .244, top is a .222 Remington in a 722 Remington.

DSCN0441 (2).JPG
DSCN0443 (2).JPG
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Forum statistics

Threads
53,988
Messages
1,142,485
Members
93,357
Latest member
AishaYpd4
 

 

 

Latest posts

Latest profile posts

Cwoody wrote on Woodcarver's profile.
Shot me email if Beretta 28 ga DU is available
Thank you
Pancho wrote on Safari Dave's profile.
Enjoyed reading your post again. Believe this is the 3rd time. I am scheduled to hunt w/ Legadema in Sep. Really looking forward to it.
check out our Buff hunt deal!
Because of some clients having to move their dates I have 2 prime time slots open if anyone is interested to do a hunt
5-15 May
or 5-15 June is open!
shoot me a message for a good deal!
dogcat1 wrote on skydiver386's profile.
I would be interested in it if you pass. Please send me the info on the gun shop if you do not buy it. I have the needed ammo and brass.
Thanks,
Ross
 
Top