7mm 08 for Eland

[Lee M]

I suppose that is true, but I would argue that SAAMI is, in fact, an authority in the industry. Even if a 7x57 is built in a modern rifle that can handle high pressures, do you know if the brass itself is constructed heavy enough for the added pressure? That would be a concern of mine, particularly in the web area. I get the whole romance thing, sure. The British were 'romantic' in their approach to battle, wearing red coats and marching in the wide open. We romanced them alright, and they lost. LOL Just kidding, to each his own. Really, for me, the 7x57 is a German design, I'm a US Marine ( we won that one too TWICE)...I'll take my American 7mm-08. At the end of the day, we all know it's the skill of the rifleman that matters the most.

Lol. I laughed at the “romance” line too. I like all 7mm’s and taught my sons using the efficient little 7mm 08. A shot in the lungs will kill an eland but keep ranges reasonable and angles good. That’s a big critter. I’ve taken all my plains game with my 7mm mag or my bow. Also a nod to a marine from a retired Navy pilot.

 

[IvW]

The 7mm-08 will outperform a 7x57, every time. This is due to the 7mm-08 being a more modern cartridge, thus loaded to a higher average pressure then the 7x57. SAAMI calls for the 7mm-08@61,000PSI while the 7x57 is only at 51,000PSI. The 7mm-08 will be faster with all bullets, Hodgdon shows the 7mm-08 with 160s averaging about 2650fps from several suitable powders. The 7x57 is only at 2500 with a 160, and that's with only about 2 powders. Most were significantly less. In addition, the 7mm-08 has a much better reputation for accuracy, being used quite a bit in various disciplines. The 7x57 generally has a reputation for attaining satisfactory field accuracy at best. The 7mm-08 is a true short action cartridge at 2.80", where as the 7x57 is not a short at 3.071", but really isn't a long action round either. It is just long enough to not work well in most short actions, due to limiting COAL greatly or not fitting at all, but a long action is much more than is needed. Most cartridge discussions are based on subjective feeling, but to me, this is one of the objective ones with a clear winner. The 7mm-08 Rem.

I think you are a paper comparer with no practical experience with regards to the field performance of the 7x57mm. The 7x57mm has one of the best track records in Africa as a light rifle. 7x57mm are not built on short action but rather on medium or intermediate actions.

Developed in 1892 it has a great track record. Although as stated SAAMI pressure is at 51000 psi C.I.P is at 56565 psi. These pressures are for factory ammo. In modern actions, you can load the 7x57mm to exceed anything you can do with a 7mm-08 in any bullet weight.

Typical 7x57mm have a rifle twist of 1:8.66" specifically to stabilize heavier bullets. Heavier bullets are much better for use on African game than light for caliber bullets.

The 7mm-08 has a rifle twist of 1:9.5" which is better for lighter bullets. If you have a 7mm-08 that will shoot the heavy weights accurately, that is great. If not you will be further limited to the game taking capability.

The all american need for speed is obvious. Although the 7mm-08 is a great cartridge the 7x57mm always has been and still will be the better choice for African plains game. Especially when including the larger plains game species.

Is either the 7mm-08 or the 7x57mm the ideal cartridge for Eland? Most certainly not, especially for a visiting client it is marginal. In an experienced african hunters hands it would get the job done.

Paper punching sub MOA groups, light bullets and high velocities and chamber pressures are not needed for African PG.

The 7x57mm loaded with a premium grade 170-175 grain bullet will kill all the plains game in Africa(yes it is marginal for Eland), as it has done for 126 years and will continue doing so.

I would still not recommend either to a client for use on a trophy sized Eland bull, unless I have hunted with the client before and know his abilities. Unfortunately Eland are not easy to hunt, once wounded or spooked they just keep going. Rather use a more appropriate caliber.

 

[BeeMaa]

Why use such a relatively marginal cartridge (unless you can get very close)?
Eland is a big tough animal!

+1
Being ethical and reasonable is the point.
For the trip of a lifetime, should you not invest in a larger caliber rifle or use one of the firearms available at camp?
Eland weigh in at 1200-2000# and I would not trust the energy of a 7-08 at 100 yards on an animal of that size.
IMO - Step up to at least 30-06, or better yet 300WM, or even better yet 375H&H.

Consult your PH and get his opinion.
I would like to hear what he/she has to say on the subject.

 

[Dr Ray]

Furthermore why take a risk on having a wounded animal - your trophy of a lifetime escape to die a miserable and painful death?
Use a bugger and more powerful cartridge (please).

 

[neckdeep]

This one took a 300 gr Northfork soft, quartering on, right threw the boiler room and took off like nothing happened, hit em while he was departing with a couple solid's and he went down, took a couple finisher's. Maybe I didn't hit him perfect, but still hit him pretty solid.

Take a bigger gun!!!

 

[BeeMaa]

Beautiful bull you have there.
You mentioned it was a 300gr Northfork soft and a few solids to finish, but left out what caliber you used.

 

[mdwest]

Beautiful bull you have there.
You mentioned it was a 300gr Northfork soft and a few solids to finish, but left out what caliber you used.

Im going to guess not a 7-08

 

[neckdeep]

Beautiful bull you have there.
You mentioned it was a 300gr Northfork soft and a few solids to finish, but left out what caliber you used.

Sorry, 375 H&H, loaded to about 2450 fps, Everyone says Eland die easy, mine didn't seem to, even though he might have been dead on his feet.

 

[Red Leg]

The 7mm-08 will outperform a 7x57, every time. This is due to the 7mm-08 being a more modern cartridge, thus loaded to a higher average pressure then the 7x57. SAAMI calls for the 7mm-08@61,000PSI while the 7x57 is only at 51,000PSI. The 7mm-08 will be faster with all bullets, Hodgdon shows the 7mm-08 with 160s averaging about 2650fps from several suitable powders. The 7x57 is only at 2500 with a 160, and that's with only about 2 powders. Most were significantly less. In addition, the 7mm-08 has a much better reputation for accuracy, being used quite a bit in various disciplines. The 7x57 generally has a reputation for attaining satisfactory field accuracy at best. The 7mm-08 is a true short action cartridge at 2.80", where as the 7x57 is not a short at 3.071", but really isn't a long action round either. It is just long enough to not work well in most short actions, due to limiting COAL greatly or not fitting at all, but a long action is much more than is needed. Most cartridge discussions are based on subjective feeling, but to me, this is one of the objective ones with a clear winner. The 7mm-08 Rem.

That is a ridiculous assertion. No animal on the planet could tell the difference between the two cartridges except those hit with a 170/175 gr bullet from a 7x57/.275. Those heavy for caliber rounds do not work nearly as well in the 'o8 case. Just saying.

That said - and though I love my .275 - were I paying the trophy fee for an eland, I would hope that I had my .338 or .375 in hand.

 

[Nosler guy]

Everyone says Eland die easy, mine didn't seem to, even though he might have been dead on his feet.

Only shot one Eland myself, a big Kalahari bull in Namibia - 300 win mag with 180 gr Hornady's (borrowed outfitters rifle - would have preferred a better premium bullet) - hit him perfect at 80 yards with the first shot, he acted like nothing happened, angled two more quartering shots into the lungs as he turned, and he still rumbled off into the brush. Circled around a few hundred yards and got in on him, a frontal shot and then another quartering shot as he turned, and then he finally tipped over.

It was a morning hunt, so we radioed in and they picked up the beast, we kept hunting as we had bumped a monster warthog not long before we got onto the Eland. By the time we got back to camp in the evening, they had processed the Eland and I never did get a chance to examine the carcass to see how the bullets had penetrated or performed. I expect that the first shot on the shoulder may not have fully penetrated, but shouldn't have been any problem with the quartering shots, 5 well placed shots from a 300 mag - do you think I would consider hunting those critters with a 7mm-08?

 

[BeeMaa]

Only shot one Eland myself, a big Kalahari bull in Namibia - 300 win mag with 180 gr Hornady's (borrowed outfitters rifle - would have preferred a better premium bullet) - hit him perfect at 80 yards with the first shot, he acted like nothing happened, angled two more quartering shots into the lungs as he turned, and he still rumbled off into the brush. Circled around a few hundred yards and got in on him, a frontal shot and then another quartering shot as he turned, and then he finally tipped over.

It was a morning hunt, so we radioed in and they picked up the beast, we kept hunting as we had bumped a monster warthog not long before we got onto the Eland. By the time we got back to camp in the evening, they had processed the Eland and I never did get a chance to examine the carcass to see how the bullets had penetrated or performed. I expect that the first shot on the shoulder may not have fully penetrated, but shouldn't have been any problem with the quartering shots, 5 well placed shots from a 300 mag - do you think I would consider hunting those critters with a 7mm-08?

I believe you and I are of the same mind on this one...along with several others.
No such thing as too dead, especially when you consider the trophy fee of ~$2K USD.

I would still like to hear what the PH of the OP has to say.

 

[neckdeep]

I might try for another eland this September in Mozambique, I will use the same 300 gr Northfork SS and this time will be using flat point solid's instead of the Cup Nose Solids by Northfork also. We will see if the second one goes down quicker. I am sure that 7-08 would kill one but I am not going to try it. We are also hunting in a DG area so the smallest gun I am ever carrying is a 375.

 

[gatekeeper]

That is a ridiculous assertion. No animal on the planet could tell the difference between the two cartridges except those hit with a 170/175 gr bullet from a 7x57/.275. Those heavy for caliber rounds do not work nearly as well in the 'o8 case. Just saying.

That said - and though I love my .275 - were I paying the trophy fee for an eland, I would hope that I had my .338 or .375 in hand.

No sir, that is fact. At the elevated pressures the 7mm-08 offers, it WILL give better performance than a 7x57. Nothing ridiculous about it. True, neither is a top eland round and also true that most animals will never tell the difference, but that is not what was said. Try to stay on topic

 

[gatekeeper]

I think you are a paper comparer with no practical experience with regards to the field performance of the 7x57mm. The 7x57mm has one of the best track records in Africa as a light rifle. 7x57mm are not built on short action but rather on medium or intermediate actions.

Developed in 1892 it has a great track record. Although as stated SAAMI pressure is at 51000 psi C.I.P is at 56565 psi. These pressures are for factory ammo. In modern actions, you can load the 7x57mm to exceed anything you can do with a 7mm-08 in any bullet weight.

Typical 7x57mm have a rifle twist of 1:8.66" specifically to stabilize heavier bullets. Heavier bullets are much better for use on African game than light for caliber bullets.

The 7mm-08 has a rifle twist of 1:9.5" which is better for lighter bullets. If you have a 7mm-08 that will shoot the heavy weights accurately, that is great. If not you will be further limited to the game taking capability.

The all american need for speed is obvious. Although the 7mm-08 is a great cartridge the 7x57mm always has been and still will be the better choice for African plains game. Especially when including the larger plains game species.

Is either the 7mm-08 or the 7x57mm the ideal cartridge for Eland? Most certainly not, especially for a visiting client it is marginal. In an experienced african hunters hands it would get the job done.

Paper punching sub MOA groups, light bullets and high velocities and chamber pressures are not needed for African PG.

The 7x57mm loaded with a premium grade 170-175 grain bullet will kill all the plains game in Africa(yes it is marginal for Eland), as it has done for 126 years and will continue doing so.

I would still not recommend either to a client for use on a trophy sized Eland bull, unless I have hunted with the client before and know his abilities. Unfortunately Eland are not easy to hunt, once wounded or spooked they just keep going. Rather use a more appropriate caliber.

First, I really couldn't care less what you think I am. I happen to think you a reckless individual, advocating to exceed the established SAAMI pressure specifications for a given round, but you do what you want. It want be my rifle that that flies apart in different directions . Please tell all of us non educated laymen how the 7x57 is superior. The all American need for speed? I don't recall anyone advocating for speed. I sure didn't. What I did say is the 7mm-08 will give higher velocity.

 

[Red Leg]

Sorry - but not with heavy for caliber bullets - and I am pretty sure that is the topic with respect to eland - at least that is what the OP asked. I assume, like me, your experience with the 7mm would not lead you to poking holes in a one ton eland with 145 gr loads? 175's from a 7x57 with US factory loadings are within 100 fps of the 'o8, and the rifle is typically rifled to support those heavier bullets. With Euro loadings like Nosler or RWS in 175 the difference is not meaningful and the 7x57 is still set up to handle the heavy for caliber load accurately. And I haven't mentioned handloading the 7x57.

 

[gatekeeper]

Reality doesn't change just because we don't like it. The 7mm-08 is faster with all weights, again, unless you plan to exceed maximum established pressures. Then it would likely be close, relative to how much you plan to exceed those pressure limits. Obviously, you like your 7x57, and that is fine. But it doesn't change the performance of your chosen round. I surely am not advocating either for an eland. Would it work? I am quite certain a 140gr partition would kill an eland. Again, is it the preferred choice? I would think not. But if I were forced to use one of those two, the 7mm-08 driving the 175gr bullet at higher velocities would be the logical choice. I'm quite certain this horse is dead, and has been for a very long time, but lets beat it some more........

 

[sierraone]

Don't plan on hunting an eland, but if I did, I would without question use my .375 with a 300 gr bullet. The big bulls are the size of large cape buffaloes. Why would you use a .300 or smaller on such an animal?

 

[gatekeeper]

I, personally, would think the reason would be to stay within the individual shooters limitations, pertaining to recoil. It seems to be the general census among the PHs that the 300s are absolutely acceptable and capable for any plains game. I would agree, when loaded with a premium 180 or 200gr. They are wonderful tools. I also think the various 7mm mags, when loaded with a tough 175gr., such as a Nosler Partition or Swift A Frame, are equally capable and do so with less recoil. A 375 is fine, provided the shooter is accurate with it. Some folks just can't handle that much recoil and accurately place their shots. When that occurs, I believe you have more than lost any advantage the large round offered you in the first place. If you think your 375 is too small, buy a 416. If you think that is too small, buy a 458. If that's too small, buy a 577 Nitro. At some point though, you will most likely say, that's too much for me. That point is different and not the same for everyone. At the end of the day, it's your hunt, your money, and your shooting that decides the outcome.

 

[sierraone]

Hi Gatekeeper, You make a good point, but a .375 HH is perfectly acceptable for me simply because I shot mine almost exclusively for over 3 years before going to Africa on my first trip last year, and only hunted small PG, nothing remotely the size of a eland. Since October I have shot my .404 J almost exclusively since I am taking it this July for (I hope) a buffalo. So in the end, we do agree. What ever caliber rifle you take, you have to practice enough to be comfortable with it!

 

[IvW]

First, I really couldn't care less what you think I am. I happen to think you a reckless individual, advocating to exceed the established SAAMI pressure specifications for a given round, but you do what you want. It want be my rifle that that flies apart in different directions . Please tell all of us non educated laymen how the 7x57 is superior. The all American need for speed? I don't recall anyone advocating for speed. I sure didn't. What I did say is the 7mm-08 will give higher velocity.

What experience do you have with either of these cartridges?

The pressures in the 7x57 where kept low only due to the weaker actions of the older Mauser 93 and 95 rifles which are still in circulation.

In modern strong actions, reloaders can up the performance substantially if they so like. However with 175 gr bullets @ 2300 it has everything you would need for a light rifle for African plains game.

The case capacity of the 7mm-08 is slightly smaller than in the 7x57, and accordingly the muzzle velocity of the heavier bullets will be 100-150 fps. less than in the Mauser design.

The 7x57 is better suited to the heavier bullets than the 7mm-08, it also has a longer neck and the correct twist for the heavier bullets.

What you did say the 7mm-08 will give higher velocity (velocity again!), no need for higher velocity, the 7x57mm has enough and always has had enough with a 175 grain bullet.

Although they are similar, the 7x57 is superior when loaded with heavy bullets.

Then it also comes with an impeccable record in Africa and is regarded as one of the all time classic African cartridges. So much so that it has now been "re-introduced" again as the .275 Rigby in the US.

Make your pick, mine will always be a 7x57mm.

Neither are recommended for eland though no matter how good they are.