.58 caliber double rifle.....Buffalo ?

[A.Sharpe]

I wish to hunt Cape Buffalo with black powder. I have a Pedersoli .58 cal double rifle. I'm hitting a 2" group at 75 yards with 110 grains of Pyrodex RS. My question is with a 425 grain conical bullet do I have enough gun? Or should I get the .72 cal barrels? I have never hunted Buff and do not want to be a danger to myself or those with me. Because I'm under gunned.

 

[enysse]

Well, I will try to answer your question. To hunt big game you must generate enough ft/lbs., I don't see with the powder load you are using, that you are even close to power needed.

 

[sestoppelman]

If where you plan to hunt buff has minimum energy requirements, you probably wont make it. Depends on how fast those slugs are moving. Lots of buff were killed with BP guns, but they were really big and burned a lot of powder. Would your load kill a buff? Sure it would, just might not be legal. I would guess your loads is producing less energy than a .308 Win. The .72 cal wont get you there either. Not saying it wont kill a buff, just wont make the energy standards. Still if a guy is serious he should be able to find an outfitter willing to take him on with proper backup.

 

[A.Sharpe]

Thanks guys. I am learning as I go . I now see a new rifle in my future. Never having hunted Africa it's hard to comprehend the size of these animals. It may sound stupid but a trip to the NC zoo may be in order. I would love to use a muzzle loader ,but would also like to come back home in one piece. Not to mention I do wish to kill a Buffalo and not torture one to death.

 

[BRICKBURN]

Interesting idea.
I thought about taking the muzzleloader along for plains game. I ran into issues with powder transport and availability.
So, I quit trying to take it along.
You won't be able to take the Pyrodex with you on a plane, so you will need to find local powder to do the trick.

Penetration is the issue, as the guys said above.

Wonder what kind of slugs you can get that might perform. All the sabots that I have ever encountered are softs for deer hunting.

As Ses noted, with determination you might pull it off.

Good luck.

 

[Arinjit]

I don't know anything about muzzleloaders, but this thread and the other on elephant hunting with a muzzleloader caught my interest. The general consensus here appears to be that it is inadequate and unsafe. I know someone that pretty much exclusively hunts with muzzleloaders. He has a number of them and I am not sure which he used for what animal. I know he has a 6 bore that i handled one time and it wasnt something I would like to lug around all day. He is a very accomplished hunter and has many animals in the SCI top ten (for muzzle loaders). He has over 500 animals in his trophy room, so that should give you an idea.

Also Jim Shockey is a big muzzle loader hunter. You can see Jim's animals in the SCI Muzzleloader top 10 records also. An incentive for those trying to get top 10 or 20 animals is that there are not many muzzleloader hunters, so even a bronze or silver may make it to the top 10 for that category. Although, I am not saying that is Jim's intent for hunting with muzzleloaders. The SCI top 10 list is publicly published, so you can just do a google search for it and don't have to be a member or have subscription.

The problem most will run into is that you cannot take the powder on most commercial flights, or at least it's not easy. But to say that muzzleloaders are inadequate in general I feel is incorrect. I think it all depends on the equipment. There are many that have used them before in Africa and some that still do.

Just my 2 cents and as stated, I don't know anything about muzzleloaders. Just know people that have hunted with them a lot in Africa. I personally would have the PH ready to back me up if using muzzleloaders. Not sure how others do it.

 

[A.Sharpe]

Thank you for your input. I knew guy's in Alaska that hunted brown bear with BP muzzleloaders. My thought is to work up some loads and do some testing. If I am comfortable with it and the PH is OK with it . I'd have to give it a shot. Can't see it anymore dangerous than hunting with a bow. What would be the difference in transporting BP or ammo? If the trip is planned far enough ahead couldn't the outfitter get BP for you?
What are the energy requirements for hunting buffalo.?

 

[35bore]

Have you looked into the 4 bore or 8 bore BP's? They are a handful, but if I were hunting Buff or Ele with BP those are the ones I would be looking at.

 

[sestoppelman]

I don't know anything about muzzleloaders, but this thread and the other on elephant hunting with a muzzleloader caught my interest. The general consensus here appears to be that it is inadequate and unsafe. I know someone that pretty much exclusively hunts with muzzleloaders. He has a number of them and I am not sure which he used for what animal. I know he has a 6 bore that i handled one time and it wasnt something I would like to lug around all day. He is a very accomplished hunter and has many animals in the SCI top ten (for muzzle loaders). He has over 500 animals in his trophy room, so that should give you an idea.

Also Jim Shockey is a big muzzle loader hunter. You can see Jim's animals in the SCI Muzzleloader top 10 records also. An incentive for those trying to get top 10 or 20 animals is that there are not many muzzleloader hunters, so even a bronze or silver may make it to the top 10 for that category. Although, I am not saying that is Jim's intent for hunting with muzzleloaders. The SCI top 10 list is publicly published, so you can just do a google search for it and don't have to be a member or have subscription.

The problem most will run into is that you cannot take the powder on most commercial flights, or at least it's not easy. But to say that muzzleloaders are inadequate in general I feel is incorrect. I think it all depends on the equipment. There are many that have used them before in Africa and some that still do.

Just my 2 cents and as stated, I don't know anything about muzzleloaders. Just know people that have hunted with them a lot in Africa. I personally would have the PH ready to back me up if using muzzleloaders. Not sure how others do it.

I think you misunderstood the general feeling about ML hunting. This was about hunting buffalo with ML, not plains game or elk and deer, but buffalo which are notoriously tough. Also the legal requirements for caliber and energy that one would have to meet which vary from country to country. And as stated the practicality of it. Opinions vary on that like they do on everything. No one said they were inadequate in general, this was specific to A.Sharpe's question about his rifle for buffalo.

 

[A.Sharpe]

Man that's a cannon. I can get a set of .72 rifled barrels for my double. I can see it now "Yes I got my buffalo ,as I stand there with a dislocated shoulder and stitches from a large scope cut"........
Thinking for my first Africa hunt I may just pick up a .375 H&H . I have a feeling my first hunt will not be my last.

 

[Arinjit]

I think you misunderstood the general feeling about ML hunting. This was about hunting buffalo with ML, not plains game or elk and deer, but buffalo which are notoriously tough. Also the legal requirements for caliber and energy that one would have to meet which vary from country to country. And as stated the practicality of it. Opinions vary on that like they do on everything. No one said they were inadequate in general, this was specific to A.Sharpe's question about his rifle for buffalo.

I should have mentioned, the person I was referring to has taken multiple buffalo and elephants with muzzleloaders. In fact he did his entire Big 5 with muzzleloader and has taken multiple of each species except rhino. I don't know what caliber he used for what. But if i remember correctly, he may have mentioned the 6 bore for elephant. He has also taken a lot of North American game with muzzleloader, including polar bear.

Anyhow, I don't know much about muzzleloaders and was only pointing out that there are people that have taken Big 5 with them in recent years. It would not be my choice. I plan on using my double in 470 for buffalo and ele. I agree with you that local requirements would determine if muzzleloader can be used on buffalo or other game for that matter.

 

[Arinjit]

What would be the difference in transporting BP or ammo? If the trip is planned far enough ahead couldn't the outfitter get BP for you?
What are the energy requirements for hunting buffalo.?

Most commercial airlines will not allow you to fly with BP, as you would with ammo. I would suggest you discuss with your PH about local requirements regarding hunting with BP first and what caliber, if any they recommend. You could also ask them if they can source the powder for you. You can try to contact some commercial freight company that transport explosives to see if they can ship it to the outfitter in advance for you. You can also try to contact a travel agent that deals with hunters to seek their advice on transporting BP. I really cannot give you the details as I have never done it myself.

The easiest and most practical solution for buffalo is to get a bolt action or double, but if you want to do it with a muzzleloader, I think it can still be done. It will however affect where you can hunt and the cost of your hunt. If neither of this outweigh your want to hunt buffalo with a muzzleloader, then I say go for it. There are others that have done it.

I have not hunted buffalo myself, but have heard of them taken with everything from 303 to 700 NE. I personally would not use anything smaller than a 375 (legal min in most countries) or bigger than a 470 (as I already own one and don't think anything bigger will get it any more dead). So, those are the energies I would recommend. I don't have a clue on what their equivalent for muzzle loaders would be. I would agree with 35bore that you should look into the 4-8 bores. A custom made one will cost you a bit, and they are not the lightest guns to tote around based on what I have handled (not shot), but those should be adequate for buffalo and ele from my extremely limited knowledge on BP.

 

[A.Sharpe]

I have access to a 375 that a friend said I can use. As my first Africa hunt, the cost of a rifle isn't that big. But if I decide I will be going back then buy my own. I would really have no need for it in NC. Little overkill for 150 lbs deer. I would love a .470NE double and who knows between now and when Africa see's me anything is possible. I may try and make arrangements to get BP there and take the muzzleloader for Wildebeest, and Kudu.
I still have a few years, to plan my trip , I first have to get released by my Dr's . I could have my 60th Birthday in Africa if all goes well. Now that would be a birthday to remember....

 

[Hogpatrol]

One option to consider is the Savage line of .50 caliber smokeless muzzleloaders. They shoot a .45 caliber saboted bullet and there is a large selection of bullets from 180 to 400 or more. There is a fraternity that is shooting bare 300 gr bullets in custom guns at speeds close to 3000fps. This is 300fps FASTER than the .375 H&H with the same weight bullet. In my opinion more than enough for any of the DGs.

 

[A.Sharpe]

Now that is a thought. I looked at the Bad Bull . But, that's $4000.00 for a muzzleloader. I love the traditional muzzleloaders and would love to take one with my Double Rifle. But everything has it's place and this could be a place for a smokeless muzzleloader. Thank's Hog I didn't know Savage made a smokeless muzzleloader. So many things to consider.

 

[sestoppelman]

I read a review of the Savage and it sounds pretty impressive, with energy levels nearing the .375 H&H. No doubt one could pay big bucks and get one to do much more. I sure have no problem with anyone wanting to own and shoot such guns, but the desire to do so still escapes me. If one wants a powerful single shot rifle shooting smokeless powder, just buy a Ruger No.1. Be a whole lot quicker to reload in the field and its still a single shot.

 

[Hogpatrol]

I read a review of the Savage and it sounds pretty impressive, with energy levels nearing the .375 H&H. No doubt one could pay big bucks and get one to do much more. I sure have no problem with anyone wanting to own and shoot such guns, but the desire to do so still escapes me. If one wants a powerful single shot rifle shooting smokeless powder, just buy a Ruger No.1. Be a whole lot quicker to reload in the field and its still a single shot.

The Ruger No. 1 is a great gun and I wouldn't denigrate anyone who felt compelled to use it or any other type of weapon as long as it is capable and they are proficient in its use.

 

[spike.t]

One option to consider is the Savage line of .50 caliber smokeless muzzleloaders. They shoot a .45 caliber saboted bullet and there is a large selection of bullets from 180 to 400 or more. There is a fraternity that is shooting bare 300 gr bullets in custom guns at speeds close to 3000fps. This is 300fps FASTER than the .375 H&H with the same weight bullet. In my opinion more than enough for any of the DGs.

so this is a front loader being loaded to fire a projectile at 3000fps? what is the point? i thought the point of using old fashioned weaponry is the interest of having to utilise the capabilities of the type of weapon, and work within its umbrella??not to upgrade it to nuclear capabilities....same wanting to pump up the velocities of classic calibres that work perfectly well as designed to velocities that are not needed....hbrother:

 

[spike.t]

If one wants a powerful single shot rifle shooting smokeless powder, just buy a Ruger No.1. Be a whole lot quicker to reload in the field and its still a single shot.

hey ses everone has a single shot, just load your bolt action with one round...dont even need to buy a no1 then either...:biggrin2:

 

[Red Leg]

A 58 cal muzzle loader is the same gun it was 150 years ago - a medium caliber for antelope. Buf require a gauge bore - 10 bore was traditionally the bare min and an 8 bore was preferred. My friend Tony killed a buff a few years ago in Botswana with an eight and didn't feel the least under gunned. And I am with Spike - if the intent is to gimmick a front-loader to imitate a center fire then what is the point!