50 cal TC shooting Minie’

[fourfive8]

Have put together and owned more various MLs than I can remember I believe that some J-S or S Hawken rifles were originally 58 caliber, possibly low 60s. If barrel walls were in proportion to caliber… they’d be heavy beasts. If not , then the stories of excessively heavy charges “fer shoot’n bar n buffalo”, even with round balls, would have rivaled the Selous’ double charge elephant gun load story. The models of original “Hawken” rifles show quite a variation as custom orders could be accommodated. I’ve handled a few originals Hawkens but never lucky enough to find one “in the wild”. Last one I saw for sale was sadly in relic condition.

Riding the wave of the ML renaissance, Western Arms, Santa Fe NM, initiated the marketing and sale of Uberti made copies of the Hawken rifle. You’ll see them as the “Santa Fe Hawken”. I’ve had a couple of them and they are pretty good copies of the classic Kit Carson model, IIRC, and better than most! The company was sued by Winchester-Western because of the Western Arms name. So that was that. Interesting side note about the Santa Fe Hawken is, for whatever reason, Uberti made the barrels with a 53 cal bore! That is why you’ll occasionally see roundball molds in .520-.525” size. Also the reason Hornady made some runs of .520” swaged round balls. Lots of wood ramrods broken by frustrated newb shooters trying to load .530” patched roundballs into .530” bores. But they are a good gun and well worth considering if you find a used one in good condition- the caveat being- they are 53 caliber. Enough keyboard rendezvous wandering trivia for now. Next installment… “shooting history” story of my 69 cal US M1861 Navy, its journey from Whitney to the Civil War blockade to Burma and return to the US.

If I can catch some decent weather, may be able to get another couple of groups shot with the 50 TC and Minie’ to better answer the ? about the 1st shot from cold, clean bore being a little high.

 

[fourfive8]

Before moving on to the M1861 Navy rifle story, a little extra on the 54 Hawken Kit Carson replica noted above. It’s a running joke to myself about the wood. I purchased the rough blank for it in 74-75. It was listed as “figured walnut”. Obviously it’s tiger maple- a simple mistake by the seller. I didn’t send it back. It has correct grain through the wrist. Ever since I just call it “figured walnut” if people ask, Most all original Hawkens had plain, straight grain walnut, I think. All I’ve looked at have.

The original M1841 pictured with it above will always be an enigma with question marks. I’ve never been able to find US armory or Whitney records stating any were made with a 48” twist bore. The one I have has original barrel, so my only conclusion is that historians have missed the fact that at least a few, made by Whitney, had a 48” twist bore and not the assumed common 72-78” twist. Pic is original Peace flask that would have been issued along with the M1841. The charging spout for sized to throw a standard charge for the M1841.

 

[Daryl S]

Not very many large bore Hawkens that I've have heard of. Then too, a couple "freshings" and a .52 or .54 could have been in the neighbouhood.
I wanted the .58 for moose, then got into a LOT of testing with Minnies. I did very little shooting inside 100yards in those days as I didn't "see" any point in it. I had read about shooting as close as 25yards with a rifle at shoots in the States, but only did that myself to check the point of impact for shooting grouse or tarmigan's heads. Once I "got into" the rendezvous theme in the 80's, that all changed. By then I'd moved to P.G. B.C. and was shooting another .50 cal. Bauska barrel on a rifle I cobbled together.
My bro built me the 14 bore English patterned rifle in '86. It "staggered" moose. Forsyth's little book inspired that rifle. Today, it is my " target" rifle, although I have a 44" barreled JP Beck rifle he also built, along with a SMR in .36.

 

[fourfive8]

Several years ago an M1861 Navy showed up for sale on a friend’s site. 5 minute phone call and the gun was on the way. This gun was issued to a Union blockade ship during the Civil War. One photo shows the rub mark across the flat just behind the cross bolt caused by the tie down used to hold these rifles secure in rough seas while stored in the ship’s armory. The story for this rifle between the end of the US Civil War in 1865 until 1944-5 WWII when it was retrieved by a US soldier in Burma, is a complete mystery! Second mystery is how it survived with near pristine bore in Burma between 1865 and recovery as a “War Trophy” near end of WWII, mid-1940s!

Received rifle and ordered a 69 cal Lyman Minie’ mold. Cast up a batch from near pure lead and shot a few with 65 gr BP charge. As is so often the case, POI was too high at 50 yards. I taped on a cardboard front sight, shot a few more to gauge best height for front blade. Fashioned a steel blade to “saddle” over front sight. Attached with original JB weld. Rifle consistently shoots 1-11/2” groups to POA at 50 yards. Then tested the Minie’ with my terminal “torture test” media. Penetration exceeded most high power expanding jacketed bullet penetration from calibers like the 308. I later found a correct Yataghan bayonet to go with the rifle. A pic below shows Minie’ before and after that test. Pics of segments of bring back papers with rifle’s serial # 433.

 

[Daryl S]

The bore's condition certainly is a mystery. I've read, in Firearms of the American West, that the .69's were more accurate than the "newer" .58's.
Here's a picture of a bunch of bullet and round balls of calibres down to .350", I think.
The largest one on the left with recovered ball from the dirt bank at 300 metres, is just over 1".(pretty close to 4 bore, then 12 bore with 2 balls and a hollow based slug,no idea where it came from, then .69 calibre with the Lyman minnie and a 560gr. from my adjustable .69 mould, then 16 bore, 2bore then .58 cal., .50, .45 with 2 R.E.A.L. bullets, 220gr. and 200gr. from Lee, then the .350" for my .36 squirrel rifle.
Correction, the 140bore ball, the smallest one is .32". I shot Lee .319's that cast right at .320", in my original barrel on the squirrel rifle. It would only shoot 1" at 50 yards and I didn't like the narrow grooves and wide lands, so replaced it with a Rice barrel of .36".

 

[Daryl S]

IIRC, the service charge in the ctgs for the .69 Minnie guns, was 70gr, however what sort of grade, we don't know. We do know that after about 1820, the quality of powder improved such that the paper ctgs. with round balls was refuced from 165gr. to 135gr. Those charges would include the priming powder for the flintlock, expecting perhaps up to 5gr. The first cap-lock was the 1842, iirc. ftom the books.

 

[fourfive8]

I enjoy shooting the old originals with the historically correct loads. It gives me context and a link to history. Early on I discovered that sometimes historically correct may not be the most efficient for our modern hunting or we have read too much into historic tales of how effective some may be for killing big game. On three occasions I’ve been involved in tracking down mule deer bucks shot by others in our hunting group after hitting a buck squarely in the shoulder at broadside angle. All were at good ML range of about 50 yards. Two with 50 cal ML patched roundball loaded with 100 gr BP charges and one with 54 cal ML patched roundball loaded with 90 gr BP charge. The 50 cal deer were found 2 & 3 days later and were not salvageable. I was close enough to the shot with the 54 cal deer to get on his trail quickly. I found him still alive and struggling down a steep rocky brush clogged draw bottom about 3/4 mi from where by buddy first hit him. We recovered him, with no issue other than a steep pack out.

I always try to recover bullets from game to analyze performance. Each one of those round balls fully expanded to a pancake. Each one failed to penetrate enough with results self explanatory. Shoot a soft lead round ball with high impact velocity into the shoulder of a mature mule deer buck and some percentage of time the results will be poor. Velocity, high kinetic energy and low sectional density are not always good combinations. My largest bull elk, a big 6x6, I killed with the 54 cal Hawken replica, described in this thread, and patched roundball, I now look back on as pure luck in where that ball entered and penetrated into the vitals. Angling frontal angle with shot into junction of shoulder and neck, penetrating into heart/lung area and missing all large bones. Looking back on it some 47 years past … pure luck I didn’t cripple and lose that elk. A miss left-right or up-down by a couple inches and likely lost cripple.

A year earlier I killed a large 4x4 mule deer at timberline with a 50 TC Hawken identical to the one in this thread OP. I had worked up a load using a solid base pure lead Maxi over a charge of 95 gr FF. I hit that deer in upper 1/3 of the shoulder broadside. At the shot I saw dirt fly beyond the deer and for a split second thought a miss high. But the buck reared up, fell backwards down a steep slope a few yards and stopped. He was dead when I got there. That conical Maxi didn’t slow down going through both shoulders. So much for the magic and myth of velocity and kinetic energy. Sectional density and momentum IMO are as important if not more important for cleanly taking game with primitive bullets/ loads in traditional MLs. My thinking about hunting big game with muzzleloaders has evolved over the past 50 years. I’ve learned the limitations of range and projectiles like the roundball for traditional ML hunting. Conicals, solid or Minie’ styles, make even more sense now but may require dedicated testing, time snd work for accuracy. I even went down the modern inline ML rabbit hole for a couple years. The last bull elk I hunted, 20 years ago, was with an inline and jacketed sabot. Called a really good bull into 10 yards, shot it, killed it. Thought about it afterward, “Well, that was BS”. Zero interest in hunting elk since.

Dang, I miss our impromptu rendezvous gatherings where a group of us buckskinners would set up camp in the aspens during muzzleloader deer season and spend 5 or 6 days doing whatever, hunting when we felt like it, throwing knives and hatchets and BSing around the fire. Long before cell phones. We always set up a couple of canvas wall tents and at least one teepee.

 

[Daryl S]

Good story. I personally have seen moose, not elk, shot with round balls from .45 to .75. The .69 (.682") and .75 (.735") round balls produced the best results. This should not be a surprise. Too the best results were with WW alloy balls in those rifles. The .69 put them on the hide of the other side when hitting heavy leg bones, exited when no bones hit, but the .75 always exited, right down to 140gr. powder charge. At 120gr., Keith was able to keep a ball inside as moose. A 580gr. hard ball worked VERY well. My 466gr., balls were second best.
Even the .45, with a pure lead swaged Hornady or Speer ball, shot with 80gr. 2F powder, ended up double lunging the moose, no bones hit. The moose was found dead 50yards away in his bed after giving him 15 minutes to lay down. I know other animals are known to will run further and from my guiding experience, I know that a LOT of hunters have to be ordered to sit down and have a smoke, or just sit there & give him a chance to lay down. Chasing animals makes them run, sometimes a long way and long distance.
Maxiballs were crap on moose - never traversing in a straight line, would make a 90degree turn after hitting or clipping a 1 1/2" x 3/8" thick rib. They would also collapse in shape, getting smaller instead of expanding, due I suppose to the huge grease grooves and pointy nose shape. The flatter nosed Hornady swaged and lubricated bullets did somewhat better in the .54 calibre. Once we got the "boys" to switch to patched round balls using Track's Mink Lube for lubricant, they started killing moose with one shot, with .50's and .54's and that one .45. 48" is a round ball twist. Always was. Winchester made a fool of themselves with their slow twist, short bullet rifles and even the .50/95 was scorned and frowned upon on the plains. Aside from Keven Costner, "Those Winchesters can't kill buffalo". Seems to me I read that in Frank Seller's Sharps book.

 

[fourfive8]

An article was published by the Virginia Gun Collectors Association that featured the M1861 Navy that I ended up with. Researchers have found some documentation about where a few of these ended up after the Civil War. It mentions some pacification efforts in certain Pacific island groups. It also mentions some showed up in the Philippines after US recapture from Japan at end of WWII. No mention is made about Burma where my gun was recovered as a war bring back.

Pic is of an M 1861 Navy in the NRA National Firearms Museum. Arrow points to same wood scar as seen on my rifle as caused by restraint device, cable or clamp in ship’s armory.

 

[fourfive8]

Looking back, if I were forced to pick only one ML black powder shooter to hunt big mule deer and elk, I would probably choose an original 58 cal Remington Zouave or an original 54 caliber M1841 or a modern, custom 58 cal percussion gun with quality lock and single trigger with 8 groove, medium/compromise twist barrel. I have an original Zouave and an original M1841. The last ML I took hunting was the Zouave. Reproductions of both the Zouave and the M1841 are or have been made in numbers but I advise caution on quality

 

[fourfive8]

Pic of originals- Remington Zouave top and M1841 bottom. The Zouave was the last ML I hunted with here during deer ML season a few years ago,

They are kind of comparable in size to 2 band muskets (in the lingo ). Slightly shorter than both the Brit and American 3 band rifle muskets,

 

[Daryl S]

I had a repro Zouave back in the late 70's as well as a Numrich .58 underhammer. Both of those shot.poorly with round balls, until I fed them 120gr., then they were producing 1 1/2" to 2" groups at 100yards. I didn't even try minnies in either of them. They were both fed .022 denim patches and .575" round balls. Both were recrowned smoothly, so their crowns would not cut the patches. Not coned, as that increases the friction on loading due to the legth of the taper, but a short smooth radius, all sharp corners removed.

 

[fourfive8]

Weather has been cooperative, so able to pretty much finish up testing the 50 LEE Minie in the TC Hawken. I enjoy shooting, especially muzzleloaders. Enjoy shooting old originals even more but careful to limit the wear and tear on them for obvious reasons.

This early TC Hawken has been very predictable/ obviously a good, straight bore. One thing I noticed about this rifle when I first got it a few years ago, was that it has a 12 groove bore. I’ve never pinned down the exact history of these early barrels but some suggest TC used multiple barrel makers.

As to Grumpy gumpy’s idea about 1st shot high with remainder in string lower? Possibly with the 50 gr FF load but not 100% in my mind. Conversely the groups I shot with a heavier load of 60 gr FFF suggested a trend of 1st shot low with remainder in string lower. I’m still not confident that is a statistically valid trend either. After all I’m shooting iron sights and the elevation differences are very small with group sizes averaging under 1.5”.

The Lee Minie’ is listed at 380 gr but average weight with near pure lead is 375 gr. The Minie’ cast diameter across groove tops is .503”.

Average velocity for the 50 gr Wano FF load under the Lee Minie’ was 1000 fps. Average group size was 1.4” @ 50 yards.

Average velocity for the 60 gr Wano FFF load under the Lee Minie’ was 1105 FPS. Average group size was nearly identical at 1.3” at 50 yards.

As an aside. The sonic crack could be heard shooting the 1105 fps load. The sonic crack was absent from the 1000 fps load.

Some of the mule deer in this region of the country are really large brutes, they even take on a certain tough look. At 8-10 years many reach 250 to 300+ pounds. They are not “soft” flatland two-year-olds. I would not hesitate to shoot one of these deer through the shoulders with either 50 Minie’ load tested.

Pic of representative group shot with 60 gr FFF load

Pics of local deer. These older bucks usually show up starting in pre-rut sometime in October or November. I refuse to hunt or shoot them as they move through, even though I legally could.

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

We always fire a fouling shot for the first shot on a target, some say it warms the barrel and lubes the bore, I can’t really say but it always seems to make it more consistent
Gumpy

 

[fourfive8]

Mortgage rates drop below 6%

We always fire a fouling shot for the first shot on a target, some say it warms the barrel and lubes the bore, I can’t really say but it always seems to make it more consistent
Gumpy

Yes. I’ve found that true for a variety of rifles. I think almost always so with loads that foul most, especially BP in either muzzleloaders or cartridge guns. That’s why when using muzzleloaders with BP, it takes so much time sighting in for hunting…. having to make sure where the first shot goes from a cold, clean barrel. My normal routine for ML hunt sight in has always been: Shoot - check POI - adjust sights if needed - swab and clean - shoot - repeat process. Then on morning of hunt with completely clean bore, pop a cap before leaving camp or vehicle to make sure flash channel clear. Load rifle. If rifle had been stored for long time with lots of oil, flush with denatured alcohol day before before hunt.

But hard to figure ML hunters/shooters sometimes. I wouldn’t think shooters normally go hunting with a BP fouled bore after letting the fouling sit to do its work for a week or a year! Then again, it’s common to see used MLs on the market that have sewer pipe bores.

Hunt close. Shoot straight, shoot once.

 

[Daryl S]

I've always sighted for a clean barrel and know where subsequent shots will go, if they are needed. Those are nice big bucks. Nice racks.
Here in North/Central B.C., the mulies rut mid Nov. The Whitetails generally after that.
Been a few years since I've hunted due to medical problems, but hopefully this coming fall. Maybe Elk, but for sure whitetail. Gotta love grain-fed Whitetail bucks, early in the season.

 

[fourfive8]

One of the “theories” of the Minie’ is that each loading, without swabbing or cleaning, will scrape fouling down to top of powder charge to be blown out with the shot. Theoretically, this results in an equilibrium between fouling and shooting during a continuous shot string. With good Minie’ to bore fit, a bore in good condition and using a dab of Crisco in the base and a smear around the shank of the Minie’, a fairly good equilibrium can be reached from second shot and continuing for quite a few shots. But at some point, drying and caking of fouling catches up and the bore must be swabbed and cleaned before continuing to shoot. Reading of how 150 Brits held off 3-4000 Zulus with BP charged ammo in Martini Henrys, firing upwards of 20,000 rounds for two days, boggles my mind. What a fouling and management nightmare!

I have always heard patched roundball shooters claiming they too can shoot long strings without swabbing/cleaning. Maybe by shooting really loose fitting patched roundballs, but based on my experience, maybe time to call BS. I’ve never figured out how a loosely fitting patched roundball could consistently take the rifling for any kind of accuracy over long shot strings. My experience indicates best patched roundball accuracy is achieved with a fairly tight bore to ball fit. YRMV??

A few years ago I watched a self-proclaimed “old sage” buckskinner trying to ram a patched roundball down the bore of his flinter. Every time he rammed the end of the wood ramrod into the concrete shooting bench to get the ball down on top of the powder, he would blurt out some lame excuse. I think he had only fired 2 or 3 shots without swabbing before the ball stuck about half way down the bore. Ole Tick Licker was being stubborn that day I guess

 

[Daryl S]

Sorry, but that thinking is totally incorrect. There were a lot of guys on another forum, having to swab their bores every shot or every three shots. WE, (Northern B.C.) all of us shoot the entire course of fire on our trail without EVER having to "SWAB" our bores. That course is 55 shots long. We have shot and shot, over 100 rounds fired without having to wipe the damn bore. Yes, the rod creeps up past the "mark" but that's understandable as fouling builds in the breech. It does NOT build in the bore as we shoot tight combinations, combinations that wipe the bore every time it is loaded.
Loose combinations is why you have fouling build up in the bore. Have you not read Ned Robert's book, "The Muzzleloading Cap Lock Rifle"- that was my bible (one of them) back in 1972/3/4/5/etc.
As he stated:"Ven you loads der next shot, you cleans the last". You cannot do that with loose combination, nor can you get the accuracy we get. Unless you have 004" or .005" compression in the bottom of the grooves, you will get fouling buildup, especially in the small bores up to about 54 or .58.
In those sizes, there is actually "some" obturation of the balls IF pure lead or as pure as you can get, ie: 98% or purer. Lead sheeting from Z-ray room walls is more pure than Plumber's lead, which is 98% pure.
Many of those guys who had to swab, no longer do as they've re-crowned their barrels the same way I've been doing it since 1973. I read a "paper" written by Dave(I think)Corbin who noted the angles needed in dies for "moving metal". Lead is metal, so I incorporated those angles in to my muzzle crowning. The crown as received by barrel and or gun makers usually has a machined crown. That crown as a sharp, although not 90 degrees, corner on the outside and inside on every land and groove. Smoothing those corners, rounding them, creates the exact angles Corbin wrote about. It works. All you need is your thumb and emery in about 320grit or the black paper wet/dry paper. shove a patch about in inch down the bore to catch grit and metal as it is removed by the process.
Shove your thumb into the muzzle and rotate your wrist. I use a little WD40 on that paper or cloth. Rotate the barrel or rifle now and then, every 15 seconds or so. This re-crown should not take more than a minute or 2. The last one, done by Dave Crysali with a tool he designed and made, is an easy one-step operation. After re-crowning your muzzle, reach down into the bore with needlenose pliers or tweezers and retrieve the patch holding the "dirt".
Using a short starter and smacking the knob with your palm, forms the patch and ball into the bore. Then the RIFLE'S rod is used to push the patched ball down the bore. 6 to 10" at a time, choking up on the rod if necessary. My .50 Beck's rod is tapered from about .40" down to 1/4". That is the rod I use for that rifle when on trail walks = 50 or more shots, no wiping, no hammering, no thumping on trees.
Note, these are not coned, they are simply re-crowned to remove the sharp corners. IN the .69's bore, I have loaded .690" balls with a 10 ounce denim patch that measures .022 compressed.
Since the gun was made with a GRRW barrel that had rough reamer marks on the lands, I had to use a 12 ounce denim patch for the first 20 years or so, until the shooting smoothed it out. That 12 ounce denim measured .030" compressed. That was with the original mould I picked up for that barrel. IT cast .682" ball. .682" + .030 + .030 = .742" total. With a .690" bore and .012" rifling depth, we have .690 + .012 + .012 = .714 on the grooves. .742" - .714" = .028" compression in each groove. That rifle shot a LOT of 1 1/8" to 2" groups at 100 meters(109yds) off the bags, right from the get-go. The heavy patch was needed to prevent patch cutting and distress. To prove a point, I used the same patch, for a 5-shot group at 50yards. The group was 2". It was made offhand/standing. I could see, back then. That rifle's rod, used for loading, was a tapered rod, 1/2" to .400" and made of hickory. I just replaced that rifle's first rod with one identical, but made of Osage. Beautiful rod. Picture of the barrel and the two rods, original and new one.

 

[Daryl S]

I should note here about coning the muzzle. That is a straight taper of 1 1/2" to 2" some people put in to their muzzles. I have found that this type of muzzle might make loading loose combinations even easier, it extends the swaging, or drawing of the ball's metal over a longer distance. This proved, with the normal loads I use, ie: ball .005" under bore size and 10 ounce denim (.022" or .021") loading becomes VERY difficult compared to the radiused crown shown in the above pictures.
A friend with a coned muzzle, could not load .0400" balls into his .40 cal. rifle with the 10 ounce patch, however they loaded easily in my .40 Goodoien barrel with the 10 ounce denim patch. That Goodoien barrel had a .398" bore, but very wide grooves and narrow lands, perfect for loading tight combinations that do not require wiping at any time. None of my ML's require wiping during a day's shooting.
We use wet patches for target shooting and Neetsfoot Oil or Track's Mink Oil for hunting.
Spit works as well for targets, however, licking a patch is not spit patching. It has to be wet.

 

[fourfive8]

I started using a coated one piece Dewey rod as a range rod a long time ago. Another alternative is to a one piece steel rod. Most rifle muskets have one piece steel ram rods. I quit using wood rods years ago- the few times you’ll use it for hunting is of no consequence for abrading the muzzle. I never used fiberglass- the warnings about abrasion came out as soon as the rods were introduced.

If not in a speed competition with some odd buckskinner rendezvous rules, a muzzle guard works great, both at the range for loading and at home for cleaning. A DIY one piece steel rod works well add as a substitute for wood or fiberglass- non abrasive and unbreakable.

For hunting, except small deer or pronghorn, high velocity lead roundballs out of calibers smaller than 58 cal carry some potential for problems because of poor penetration. High kinetic energy numbers provided by high velocity are not your friend if shooting a soft lead roundball. The kinetic energy idea works both ways. The clue is in the formula for kinetic energy. 1/2 mass x velocity squared. Helps explain over expansion and lack of penetration.

Pics of muzzle guards, rods and a couple of lead roundballs recovered from game, Both of these showed barely sufficient penetration in large deer. One of the deer mentioned earlier that was lost buy found a couple of days later, had the 50 cal roundball embedded about 4 inches in the “facing” shoulder but did not penetrate into the thoracic cavity. It was a perfectly circular, flat pancake. The hunter kept it as a reminder and I believe he never used a roundball for deer again, using the solid conical Maxi instead for both deer and elk.