50 cal TC shooting Minie’

[fourfive8]

Have had and/or shot a few early TC Hawkens since the late 60s. Currently only have one, a 50 cal. Most all those in the basic “Hawken” model have 48” twist bore. It shoots patched roundballs and solid base Maxis fairly well. Sometimes exceptionally well. The Maxis tend to be sensitive to small variations in load details when trying for top accuracy. Finally, I decided to try a hollow base Minie’ in the TC. I am not sure a 50 Minie’ ever existed in history. Christmas present to self was a cheap Lee 50 cal Minie’ mold. I cast about 50 yesterday and shot a 3 shot group today at 50 yards. All my Minies are of pure lead, no matter the caliber. I lube with finger applied Crisco at the bench. I always start at about 1 grain per caliber of Wano Schuetzen FF black powder for Minie’ loads, so 50 grains of FF for this trial. Years ago I made a DIY tang mounted aperture for this rifle and installed a slimmed down front blade. For me- a good combination.

Three shots off bench yielded a 1.1” group at 50 yards, slightly above point of aim. A few more trials will determine consistency. It appears to be as good as if not better than both patched round ball and solid base conical loads. Repetitions will determine truth of that hypothesis.

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

Was the one to the left the first shot?
Gumpy

 

[fourfive8]

Was the one to the left the first shot?
Gumpy

Yes. Cold clean bore. But I’m not yet willing to claim the obvious until a few more repetitions.

 

[fourfive8]

A few observations about the first test of the 50 cal Minie’. At some point in testing I will run a short string through the chronograph to get average vel and calculate the SD of vel. Until then, based on published data and my own chronograph results with similar loads, my guess the vel of the 50 gr load of FF under the 380 gr Minie’ in the 50 cal is about 1050 - 1100 fps. Based on the group size, I’m guessing the SD of vel to be fairly low. I detect a trend in the data about most ML and BPCR loads. Over many variations and calibers, it seems about 1100 fps is a good place to be for accuracy.

Also, depending on bullet shape and target material, the bullet holes can tell a story about bullet stability. The bullet holes of three shot group from yesterday show excellent bullet stability at 50 yards. Any perturbation or wobble will show a random oblong profile if the bullets are off axis at the target. Certain types of target paper stock provide excellent results for studying bullet stability. Pic below shows close up of yesterday’s group.

 

[fourfive8]

Shot another short string of the Minie’ thru the TC 50 today to check vel. The mean vel was slightly lower than expected @ 1002 fps but the SD in range of what I had expected @ 15 fps.

By comparing results of multiple muzzleloader/loads with published data, it seems that Wano Schuetzen yields very similar results to Curtis & Harvey (Nobel) published loads by Lyman. Some of the Lyman pressure/vel data for muzzleloaders shows results using both Curtis & Harvey black powder and G-O (DuPont) black powder. A handy bit of info.

Also, the second shot string group seems to suggest
and agree with what Grumpy Gumpy hinted…. the first shot out of cold clean barrel tends to shoot a little higher than the remainder of shots out of warm fouled barrel. But, still needs a few more reps for me to go 100% on it. I’m just not completely confident in my hold nor sight picture consistency.

 

[Daryl S]

That wide flat nose of that HB Lee bullet is WAY better than the truncated bloody damn miserable on large game Maxiball. We found on moose that after impact, both .50 and .54 Maxiballs would not follow a straight path through the animal. Some guys on another forum said the worked OK on deer. I don't know about that, just that on moose and I would suggest elk as well, they are wounders only, not killing projectiles.
I'm surprised at your accuracy. Thats good, but such a tiny load would not be my choice for large game however, they will probably work just fine on deer.
I watched a video of a fellow killing a big "infected" Eland with a 350gr. FN cast bullet from an air rifle. That bullet was likely only making 875fps at the muzzle. The Eland only went about 40yds and died. The bullet was just under the skin on the off side, perfect double lung shot. I intend to shoot a whitetail next fall with one of those rifles.(in my lockup right now)

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

Friend experimented with wooden plugs in the bottom of the 54cal minìe projectiles, made a little cutter to make them consistent shape and tried to weight batch them, sort of worked ok, but I suspect that he gave up as the amount of work required didn’t really equal the results, he shot a goat with it, but I think he just plinked mainly. Spent a lot more time tying to get his Ferguson (that he built) rifle to work
Gumpy

 

[Daryl S]

The trouble with heavier loads and pure lead Minnie "balls" is with thin skirts and heavier charges. With thin skirts, the skirt blows out from the muzzle blast, as found by Lyman back in the early 1970's. I think in .50 cal, the Lee HB bullet might withstand up to 70 or 80gr. I did at one time, have a .54 Minnie mould by Lyman. I turned down the plunger and made a VERY thick walled hollow base bullet. These took up to 120gr. 2F in my percussion Sharps & shot very well in it. I managed a small muley buck with it, the bullet ending up in the back side of a ham with a frontal shot. The blood trail was short, very short.
As I recall, I used the seater die for a 6.5x68 as a sizing die to taper the bullets, to fit the Sharps chamber perfectly. I used a plunger short starter to push the bullets into the throat of the chamber, then filled the remaining space with powder. This amounted to 120gr. 2F. Raise the lever, cap and ready to so. Fun gun.

 

[fourfive8]

Friend experimented with wooden plugs in the bottom of the 54cal minìe projectiles, made a little cutter to make them consistent shape and tried to weight batch them, sort of worked ok, but I suspect that he gave up as the amount of work required didn’t really equal the results, he shot a goat with it, but I think he just plinked mainly. Spent a lot more time tying to get his Ferguson (that he built) rifle to work
Gumpy

Sounds like a British type Pritchett load they used in their smooth sided version of the Minie’. I’ve done a lot of experimentation with muzzleloader load combinations and types projectiles, but never tried the wood base plug in a Minie’. Couldn’t understand the need for a plug in the base of a normal, soft alloy or pure lead Minie’ to initiate skirt expansion. Might work for the really thick skirt in an Pritchett and/or a harder alloy Minie’. Dunno ??

 

[fourfive8]

The trouble with heavier loads and pure lead Minnie "balls" is with thin skirts and heavier charges. With thin skirts, the skirt blows out from the muzzle blast, as found by Lyman back in the early 1970's. I think in .50 cal, the Lee HB bullet might withstand up to 70 or 80gr. I did at one time, have a .54 Minnie mould by Lyman. I turned down the plunger and made a VERY thick walled hollow base bullet. These took up to 120gr. 2F in my percussion Sharps & shot very well in it. I managed a small muley buck with it, the bullet ending up in the back side of a ham with a frontal shot. The blood trail was short, very short.
As I recall, I used the seater die for a 6.5x68 as a sizing die to taper the bullets, to fit the Sharps chamber perfectly. I used a plunger short starter to push the bullets into the throat of the chamber, then filled the remaining space with powder. This amounted to 120gr. 2F. Raise the lever, cap and ready to so. Fun gun.

Yes, there is definitely a structural limit with soft alloy Minies. I think either the skirt can deform under extreme pressure while in the bore or blow out at muzzle exit or be too deformed in flight for stable and consistent flight. It’s the reason I like to stay around 1 grain BP per caliber. Also yes a Minie’ can shoot pretty well in a BPCR. I’ve had pretty good luck shooting them in my 577 Snider.

Pics from Lyman book showing results of heavy loads under Minies

 

[Tubby’s Canteen]

Ever try the ball-ets ?

 

[fourfive8]

Ever try the ball-ets ?

Yes, a long time ago, when they first came out. Can’t remember the results though- OK I think. At that time sourcing them was iffy and I didn’t have enough experience to properly test them. I think the theory of their design is good. Also, several current iterations of plastic sabot/skirted and jacketed bullets designed for modern inlines with fast twist rifling are available. Another good theory that shows good results by those shooters who really work on load work up.

 

[Daryl S]

As long as a slug is bore size and of very pure lead, it will obturate and expand to fill the grooves, in my testing right up to .008" deep. Our paper patched Sharps and Rolling Block bullets are only bore size, yet obturate and fill the grooves, giving the best accuracy.
Years ago, I had a Bauska barrel in .50 cal. that had a 38" ROT and .008 deep rifling. I shot it with solid based bullets from an antique Lyman Ideal mould. The bullets cas8t from it were a snug fit in the lands, yet it shot a lot of 1" to 1 1/2" groups at 100yards. Back then i had a 7/16" fiberglass rod for loading and found out that was like using a file to load the bullets. I had to cut off 1/4" and recrown it every 200 shots due to rod wear on the crown. When the groups opened up to 2", I'd cut and recrown the muzzle. That was a long time ago. My, how time flies.
Minne style bullets do not need clay or wooden plugs to obturate. Solid slugs don't either.

 

[fourfive8]

To wear out the bore at muzzle requires a lot of shooting! The only way to learn what works or doesn’t work for muzzleloaders and BPCRs, also requires a lot of trial and error and a lot of shooting.

Pic is of two original US Civil War era .577-58 cal Minies. Top is standard US Minie’ and bottom is British Pritchett. I added the wood plug in base of Pritchett to show how originals were loaded.

 

[Daryl S]

With the 7/16" fiberglass rod, it took only 200 shots to oval the muzzle to the point that groups doubled in size. I used that barrel for turkey shoots for 2 or 3 years. It always provided. The fouble aperture sights helped.

 

[fourfive8]

I always carefully inspect the entire bore of used MLs with a drop-in light first then use a strong light to look directly at the first inch or two at the muzzle. Interesting how many old originals have grooves filed in at muzzle… either to help accuracy or to fool buyers about condition of rifling.

Conversely, I am always amazed to see old original MLs with pristine bores.

 

[EBaker]

I run the exact same bullet lubed with a mix of deer tallow and beeswax in both my tc hawken and pedersoli kodiak 50, but with 100 grains of powder. I've had good results hunting with them, but I couldn't tell you what the bullets looked like after shooting an animal because they blow through deer shoulders.

 

[Daryl S]

Deer offer very little resistance to bullets or round balls for that matter. A .50 patched round ball is all that is needed for deer, to 200yards.(if capable). A 100 to 110gr. powder charge is normal for this and of course, a tightly patched ball. REAL Neetsfoot Oil or Track's mink Oil for lube.

 

[EBaker]

Deer offer very little resistance to bullets or round balls for that matter. A .50 patched round ball is all that is needed for deer, to 200yards.(if capable). A 100 to 110gr. powder charge is normal for this and of course, a tightly patched ball. REAL Neetsfoot Oil or Track's mink Oil for lube.

We're in different conditions. I prelube bullets, and just a couple of weeks ago I was hunting in 90°+ heat. Early season is worse. I've seen better performance with conicals on deer and see no reason to go with a less effective option.

 

[Daryl S]

Each to his own. My bro switched to patched round balls in a .50, instead of the .30/30 he had been using. With it, the deer always ran a bit, across the muskeg. Due to that, some were not recoverable. After switching to patched round balls, it was DRT, hooves in the air.
That was with small deer the same size as the one above.
Local friend of mine tried LEE R.E.A.L. bullets in his .45 and found they did not kill our local Muley's (twice the size of the one above) any better than patched round balls. They seemed to run the same 40, 50 yards after being shot.
Round ball shooters also pre-lube and patch round balls.
The big one is for my .69. The smaller one is for bunny hunting with my .36. The bottom hole has a patched round ball in it still.